Elves!

[msg67183]

Phyrexian Mana was in New Phyrexia Ryan, lol... Just picking.

But I really like how Concordant Crossroads allows us to tap our dudes for mana right away, especially Priest.
But it also gives the opponents guys haste, so it can probably be cut.
What would you put in that last slot?

[rpf5029]

Phyrexian Mana was in New Phyrexia Ryan, lol... Just picking.

But I really like how Concordant Crossroads allows us to tap our dudes for mana right away, especially Priest.
But it also gives the opponents guys haste, so it can probably be cut.
What would you put in that last slot?

It was a third set!  I was close!  /Fail. 

Concordant Crossroads isn't necessarily bad because it gives opponent's creatures haste -- 9/10 times that's not going to matter -- but the problem is that it can be a dead card almost as often as it is good.  So many cards in this deck are already dependent on other cards to be successful, and it doesn't seem to add much value as a whole card.  I have similar reservations about Fastbond.  Fastbond is a great enabler early on and later, but it costs a whole card.  When combo-ing, if there isn't a Skullclamp around, it can easily stall.  Your list -- with more Quirion Rangers -- is probably better than my list for nabbing that.  Plus, it's relatively dead against Shops unless it comes down turn 1. 

You could cut the crossroads for the second Cradle.  You could try an Elvish Scrapper.  You could go on the two visionary plan.  Just take a look at my list and see if there's anything you like.

[Samoht]

Phyrexian Mana was in New Phyrexia Ryan, lol... Just picking.

But I really like how Concordant Crossroads allows us to tap our dudes for mana right away, especially Priest.
But it also gives the opponents guys haste, so it can probably be cut.
What would you put in that last slot?

It was a third set!  I was close!  /Fail. 

Concordant Crossroads isn't necessarily bad because it gives opponent's creatures haste -- 9/10 times that's not going to matter -- but the problem is that it can be a dead card almost as often as it is good.  So many cards in this deck are already dependent on other cards to be successful, and it doesn't seem to add much value as a whole card.  I have similar reservations about Fastbond.  Fastbond is a great enabler early on and later, but it costs a whole card.  When combo-ing, if there isn't a Skullclamp around, it can easily stall.  Your list -- with more Quirion Rangers -- is probably better than my list for nabbing that.  Plus, it's relatively dead against Shops unless it comes down turn 1. 

You could cut the crossroads for the second Cradle.  You could try an Elvish Scrapper.  You could go on the two visionary plan.  Just take a look at my list and see if there's anything you like.

With new Cradle rule isn't Fastbond tons better?

[rpf5029]

Phyrexian Mana was in New Phyrexia Ryan, lol... Just picking.

But I really like how Concordant Crossroads allows us to tap our dudes for mana right away, especially Priest.
But it also gives the opponents guys haste, so it can probably be cut.
What would you put in that last slot?

It was a third set!  I was close!  /Fail. 

Concordant Crossroads isn't necessarily bad because it gives opponent's creatures haste -- 9/10 times that's not going to matter -- but the problem is that it can be a dead card almost as often as it is good.  So many cards in this deck are already dependent on other cards to be successful, and it doesn't seem to add much value as a whole card.  I have similar reservations about Fastbond.  Fastbond is a great enabler early on and later, but it costs a whole card.  When combo-ing, if there isn't a Skullclamp around, it can easily stall.  Your list -- with more Quirion Rangers -- is probably better than my list for nabbing that.  Plus, it's relatively dead against Shops unless it comes down turn 1. 

You could cut the crossroads for the second Cradle.  You could try an Elvish Scrapper.  You could go on the two visionary plan.  Just take a look at my list and see if there's anything you like.

With new Cradle rule isn't Fastbond tons better?

Yes... and no.  It can be problematic when going off, and it still can be a dead card a high percentage of the time...

.... but being able to chain Cradles is the absolute nut high. 

[msg67183]

It is kind of mana intensive but have you tried Viridian Zealot?

[rpf5029]

I've tried Zealot.  It's... okay, I guess.  He can sneak down early and lie in wait, but he gets turned off by a resolved Revoker.  Later in the game he's much worse, mostly because of the activation cost.  I've used him before to hate on Oath, but I'm not sure that it's good or worth it. 

[msg67183]

I know how good Wirewood + Viridian Shaman is. Should I just play one more of them? Or another GSZ to find either one?

[rpf5029]

I wouldn't play another Shaman main deck, but I would consider playing a third Symbiote main deck. 

[msg67183]

Alright sounds fine to me. I was asking for GSZ because against Shops it also gets around Chalice putting dudes into play, but Symbiote sounds good, also makes Glimpse better slightly, haha.

[msg67183]

You said you think Archdruid is good but not with Skullclamp. How many would you play in the board against Shops and what would you take out of my sideboard?
Also what are your thoughts on Genesis Wave? Could make Archdruid main deckable?

[msg67183]

What's everyone's thoughts on playing Natural Order-> Progenitus in the board?

[xouman]

You said you think Archdruid is good but not with Skullclamp. How many would you play in the board against Shops and what would you take out of my sideboard?
Also what are your thoughts on Genesis Wave? Could make Archdruid main deckable?

I played elves in modern, with archdruids and genesis wave. Archdruid was probably best card in the deck, and genesis wave if resolved with high cost is gg, but it has to be resolved, and we live on the land of fow, fluster, drain...

Lead the stampede is great lots of times, but not explosive enough in vintage. Against control decks it's a must counter, but against quick decks it's really bad.

[msg67183]

If Elves! can play 4 Priest of Titania and potentially 4 Elvish Archdruid main, doesn't Staff of Domination just ask to be played? It allows you to just win on the spot.

[xouman]

I thought so, but which is the good number of staffs? Elves has a nice card draw engine, but you want staff when draw engine is not online, and elves does not filter. You don't want to see more than 1 staff.

Maybe 1 staff as alternative win condition is nice, but I wouldn't play more.

[xouman]

I played elves! on saturday, getting 9 points in 6 rounds. I was told at 11pm that my mate was not lending me oath so I had to think of a custom deck. I planned to play TMWA but after testing it for more than an hour I picked elves and sleeved them. That's the list I played

14 forest
1 pendelhaven
4 elvish archdruid
3 priest of titania
3 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
2 arbor elf
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
2 wirewood symbiote
2 quirion ranger
1 elvish visionary
1 fauna shaman
1 viridian shaman
1 viridian zealot
1 regal force
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 glimpse of nature
1 skullclamp
2 genesis wave
2 pact of summoning
1 staff of domination
1 lightning greaves

sb
2 xantid swarm
2 thorn of ametyst
3 choke
1 viridian shaman
4 grafdigger's cage
2 imperious perfect
1 relic of progenitus


1st round aggro mud (2-1)
he wins the dice and opens with T2 wurmcoil, T3 metamorph to wurmcoil, T4 batterskull, and I'm at 2 by T4. But at that time I produce 16 mana (archdruid+titania) to play a genesis wave FTW.
In second match me mulls to 5 but opens with ratchet bomb, followed by revoker on llanowar+strip, and golem. Ratchet kills titania, and I never draw the third land.
In fifth match he mulls to 5 again, and he is never in.

2nd round BUG (1-2)
I told him I suppose he is one of my best pairings. He counter a couple of spells and play a couple of tarmos, but I combo quickly.
In second match he opens with ancestral, plays dts and liliana. Before liliana I think I got a pendelhaven fueling a heritage driud, but wasteland+liliana brough havoc. Liliana stays for 6 or 7 turns while I keep drawing 3 CC  cards (with only 2 lands and no mana elf) and I'm totally out.
In third match I mull to 6. I play first elf, but next 5 elves are countered or killed. I never get to 3 mana until turn 10 or so and I got in hand choke, imperious, a couple of archdruids and staff...

3rd round gushbond (0-2)
I win the dice and start quickly while he is watching. In turn 3 I have an archdruid and I'm playing regal force, but he drains it and wins on his next turn. I'm not sure if playing regal force was a mistake but of course I wouldn't win attacking in that turn...
In second match I play a t2 choke and he seems in a bad shape, but with his second tropical he plays mystical to tinker, and in his turn plays lotus, mana crypt and bsc kills me while he fows my pact.

4th round white trash (2-0)
He opens with student of warfare and follows with another while pumping them. I combo with staff and titania by turn 4 or so.
In second match he opens also with student, and I combo for the first time by turn 2: T1 llanowar, T2 glimpse, heritage, quirion, quirion untaps llanowar, with 3 mana play nettle sentinel, wirewood, another sentinel and after I draw second glimpse it's over.

5th round kuldotha mud (1-2)
he wins dice and opens with metalworker. With 10 mana he can play golem+kuldotha and I'm off.
in the second match I open with mana elf, followed by titania and t3 archdruid. In the middle he has played cotv at 1, steel hellkite, wurmcoil and kuldotha. I missplay playing a quirion into chalice but play viridian to kill hellkite. By turn 5, I play genesis wave for 18, and his active kuldotha fetches something irrelevant (probably a wurmcoil), so greaves+fauna shaman fetch for emrakul and win on the spot.
in third match I kept a land with 1 forest and 6 cc1 spells. Yes, that's TOO risky, but I can't imagine of good hands against mud openers with my bad sb. so he opens with sphere, T2 chalice at 1, and T3 metalworker. he keeps drawing crap while metalworker gets me to 13. By the time I draw enough lands to play something he draws lodestone and kills me.

6th round restoration angel deck
he opens with library and I have a slow hand (probably after a mulligan). A vendillion hits me, and when I start attacking to race the vendillion, and angel appears taking any option with him/her.
in the second match he keps only 1 land and divining top. he fails to drop a land by turn 2, and I have enough time to play titania+staff.
In third match we both mulligan but his hand is worse than mine. I play a choke but he has cavern so I do not dare to attack. When I play regal force he concedes.


So I got half the matches with an untested and raw deck, with a high lack of needed cards. I won 8 matches: 3 with staff + priest/archdruid, 2 with genesis wave, a couple with glimpse and one fetching regal force (surprisingly I didn't win any match attacking with elves, all 8 were emrakul wins). The lone skullclamp appeared once and I had an archdruid in play, so it didn't anything. I like to have different routes to victory, making the deck harder to disrupt. 1 staff+4 glimpse+2 genesis wave+1 skullclamp+1 regal force make 9 cards to combo. Staff was an instant win the three times I played it, genesis wave was instant win both times I played it. Both awesome. Glimpse is a must, gives an easy 2 or 3 cards when it's not winning the game. Skullclamp is useless with archdruid, and I have quite esteem on archdruid, so it will go off for sure, maybe for a third wave, or summoning trap. Or even a regal force.

Greaves were relevant once to activate fauna shaman to win in the same turn and IIRC to win with staff the same turn I played a titania/archdruid.

Fauna is great and maybe deserves another spot. She fetches archdruid, viridian, regal force and emrakul: mana, answers, gas and win condition.

Metamorph is cute, and will stay. He is second archdruid to win in the aggro route or get enough mana. He is another regal force if first fizzles. he is a viridian shaman. he is a batterskull or BSC. Without fauna I wouldn't play it but now it's a pretty decent 1 of.

Viridian shaman stays for sure, but I'm not sold on zealot. I don't want to inmolate himself to be useful, and there are not so many enchantments to be a key card. Against oath and golem he is usually slow, often too much.

elvish visionary was ok. he is never broken, (just used once with symbiote) but helps getting mana with titania/archruid or heritage. Still I don't know if it's good enough.

heritage feels a bit poor near titania/archdruid, but allows quick starts and alternative mana ramp. I'm not sure if I should drop she to 3. Birchlore are not coming in, the deck is mono-green and has greater costs than usual, while I have few non-mana elves. I understand they are good with glimpse and skullclamp, but now they are not the primary key to victory. with 3 or 4 heritage druid, nettle is a 4 of.

archdruid and titania. I played 4 and 3, and sided often 1 titania, but at least 3 times I had 2 mana and an archdruid sitting in my hand. Archdruid +1/+1 was never relevant, since I combo'ed quickly. I would have tot test it again and again.

2 quirion, 2 symbiote. Quirion allowed combo in T2 once, and works better with titania and archdruid (even heritage). symbiote works better with glimpse, visionary and dodging removal. both really nice with titania and archdruid.

3 llanowar, 3 fyndhorn, 2 arbor. Played a small mix because of revoker (relevant once). I missed them sometimes, specially against bug and they could have avoided 1-2 mulligans. I'd like to play one more probably.

pendelhaven was overall worse than a forest. Against bug allowed to start winning the combat race, but a waste on it killed my options. Against restoration angel it was not enough to represent a real deal.

pact of summoning is good, but it won't go up. I don't want to play it unless I have 4 lands or 3 lands and at least 2 mana elves. Should I play GSZ in this spot? Maybe, but I didn't have them. GSZ is worse with cage (and I already was playing Genesis Wave), more mana intensive, and a waste of mana if countered, while it does not give a card under glimpse and does not work with caverns (if I played them). But of course, GSZ fetches for dryad arbor, dodges COTV, and does not kill you.

I missed cavern of souls, for sure. Probably they involve playing another land because of wastes, but elves is a fast deck and most decks get the control role against us, so caverns ensures that our creatures enter the battlefield. I'm not sure with cradle, since I seldom found myself with 2 critters and not enough mana.


The side was a crap. Choke does not belong to this deck, it's a card intended to more controlling decks. It didn't stop anyone in the massive way I expected. Cage should have been played against gushbond (my mistake) since both his wincons are hated (tinker and y.will), but I didn't sb in against anyone. xantid didn't appeared but it seems a solid card against blue. thorn can be ok against fastest decks, but few decks win happily by T3 even if unmolested. I'm not sure if thorn is better than mindbreak trap, but it's quite asymmetric and I like it. Relic is another out to dredge and relevant against ooze, tarmo, snapcaster, y.will... but as I have said, I prefer to go out to combo, I don't like to rely on defensive cards. I never played imperious perfect, when I needed it 3CC was too much.



What does the deck need? I lost to heavy counterwall on my critters and lily against bug. Imperious was meant to be a horse in this pairing, but I never got her. Caverns would help for sure. I expected to land any of the engines (bug is no landstill), but just got it in first match.

I lost to golem, because ratchet on titania+revoker on llanowar+strip mine slowed me and I never draw a third land. Golem was the only real issue, since I play enought CC2 and CC3 to be more or less safe from ratchet bomb.

I lost to golem again. And then I lost to T1 sphere, T2 cotv at 1. Yes, golem is an issue, and also it's sphere when I don't have any acceleration. COTV would be less trouble with caverns.

Finally I lost to card advantage, filtering from vendillion (taking my genesis wave from my hand) and angel killing a critter while reusing vendillion. I'm not sure how to plan the sb against this pairing. Thorn is not impressive, xantid dies easily and the aggro route can be hard as it is now. Still it just takes a bomb to win the match if opponent does not have heavy overdraw.


Now I have to think cards to deal with spheres (specially golem) and decide how would I focus against faster decks.

[Protoaddict]

What does the deck need? I lost to heavy counterwall on my critters and lily against bug. Imperious was meant to be a horse in this pairing, but I never got her. Caverns would help for sure. I expected to land any of the engines (bug is no landstill), but just got it in first match.

You answered your own question. Caverns helps you beat cards you otherwise cannot beat (Cotv on 1 is really hard to see)
Gaea's cradle, Lotus, mox are the obvious things you left out. Other thoughts.

Get rid of Arbor elf to make room for non forest lands. There is now a replacement for him in m14. I would even go to 2 lanowars and run 3 of the new guy since people tend to name lanowar off needle/revoker (thats totally your metas call though.)
Greaves seems good but you have no reliable way to get them. Your not going to splash white for stoneforge or anything. If your casting Emrakul they almost seem unnecessary since you get a free turn, so I may consider cutting them totally.
Defense grid or city of solitude may be good choices for the side against reactive matches, and I would likely consider more artifact hate for shops.

[xouman]

You answered your own question. Caverns helps you beat cards you otherwise cannot beat (Cotv on 1 is really hard to see)
Gaea's cradle, Lotus, mox are the obvious things you left out. Other thoughts.
[/q] Totally agree here. But I really think that cradle is not as important here as in decks without titania/archdriud. And the investment needed compared with the rest of the deck is quite important. Lotus and mox emerald should be there, of course.

[q]
Get rid of Arbor elf to make room for non forest lands. There is now a replacement for him in m14. I would even go to 2 lanowars and run 3 of the new guy since people tend to name lanowar off needle/revoker (thats totally your metas call though.)
[/q]
yes, yes, of course. But just notice that pithing on llanowar is like pithing on lotus: it does nothing In fact in last round my opponent played pithing, but just to name quirion.

[q]
Greaves seems good but you have no reliable way to get them. Your not going to splash white for stoneforge or anything. If your casting Emrakul they almost seem unnecessary since you get a free turn, so I may consider cutting them totally.
[/q]
I played greaves because they were great in my modern elves deck, but I concede that is a dubious card. Still it allows great plays like give instant mana with titania/archdruid, allows instant atacking into jace/liliana, xantid insta-attacking (really interesting), fauna insta-search, avoids hate on key cards like archdruid or fauna shaman... While it does nothing itself, when it's in play it can be a difference of 1 turn lots of times. In a heritage-nettle based deck greaves are much worse and I won't advise them. But they can be really nasty for the opponent.

[q]
Defense grid or city of solitude may be good choices for the side against reactive matches, and I would likely consider more artifact hate for shops.

city sounds better. in fact I took out Dosan the Falling Leaf at the last minute, a city of solitude with legs. maybe it can go inside again. Artifact hate for shops is a must, but which cards? Now I'm leaning towards dismember, since 4 life is not a big deal for a deck without any life loss, and I got tangled in the 2 matches I lost to kuldotha mud. nature's claim would be great if it wasn't affected by cotv 1...

[rpf5029]

I played elves! on saturday, getting 9 points in 6 rounds. I was told at 11pm that my mate was not lending me oath so I had to think of a custom deck. I planned to play TMWA but after testing it for more than an hour I picked elves and sleeved them. That's the list I played

14 forest
1 pendelhaven
4 elvish archdruid
3 priest of titania
3 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
2 arbor elf
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
2 wirewood symbiote
2 quirion ranger
1 elvish visionary
1 fauna shaman
1 viridian shaman
1 viridian zealot
1 regal force
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 glimpse of nature
1 skullclamp
2 genesis wave
2 pact of summoning
1 staff of domination
1 lightning greaves

sb
2 xantid swarm
2 thorn of ametyst
3 choke
1 viridian shaman
4 grafdigger's cage
2 imperious perfect
1 relic of progenitus


1st round aggro mud (2-1)
he wins the dice and opens with T2 wurmcoil, T3 metamorph to wurmcoil, T4 batterskull, and I'm at 2 by T4. But at that time I produce 16 mana (archdruid+titania) to play a genesis wave FTW.
In second match me mulls to 5 but opens with ratchet bomb, followed by revoker on llanowar+strip, and golem. Ratchet kills titania, and I never draw the third land.
In fifth match he mulls to 5 again, and he is never in.

2nd round BUG (1-2)
I told him I suppose he is one of my best pairings. He counter a couple of spells and play a couple of tarmos, but I combo quickly.
In second match he opens with ancestral, plays dts and liliana. Before liliana I think I got a pendelhaven fueling a heritage driud, but wasteland+liliana brough havoc. Liliana stays for 6 or 7 turns while I keep drawing 3 CC  cards (with only 2 lands and no mana elf) and I'm totally out.
In third match I mull to 6. I play first elf, but next 5 elves are countered or killed. I never get to 3 mana until turn 10 or so and I got in hand choke, imperious, a couple of archdruids and staff...

3rd round gushbond (0-2)
I win the dice and start quickly while he is watching. In turn 3 I have an archdruid and I'm playing regal force, but he drains it and wins on his next turn. I'm not sure if playing regal force was a mistake but of course I wouldn't win attacking in that turn...
In second match I play a t2 choke and he seems in a bad shape, but with his second tropical he plays mystical to tinker, and in his turn plays lotus, mana crypt and bsc kills me while he fows my pact.

4th round white trash (2-0)
He opens with student of warfare and follows with another while pumping them. I combo with staff and titania by turn 4 or so.
In second match he opens also with student, and I combo for the first time by turn 2: T1 llanowar, T2 glimpse, heritage, quirion, quirion untaps llanowar, with 3 mana play nettle sentinel, wirewood, another sentinel and after I draw second glimpse it's over.

5th round kuldotha mud (1-2)
he wins dice and opens with metalworker. With 10 mana he can play golem+kuldotha and I'm off.
in the second match I open with mana elf, followed by titania and t3 archdruid. In the middle he has played cotv at 1, steel hellkite, wurmcoil and kuldotha. I missplay playing a quirion into chalice but play viridian to kill hellkite. By turn 5, I play genesis wave for 18, and his active kuldotha fetches something irrelevant (probably a wurmcoil), so greaves+fauna shaman fetch for emrakul and win on the spot.
in third match I kept a land with 1 forest and 6 cc1 spells. Yes, that's TOO risky, but I can't imagine of good hands against mud openers with my bad sb. so he opens with sphere, T2 chalice at 1, and T3 metalworker. he keeps drawing crap while metalworker gets me to 13. By the time I draw enough lands to play something he draws lodestone and kills me.

6th round restoration angel deck
he opens with library and I have a slow hand (probably after a mulligan). A vendillion hits me, and when I start attacking to race the vendillion, and angel appears taking any option with him/her.
in the second match he keps only 1 land and divining top. he fails to drop a land by turn 2, and I have enough time to play titania+staff.
In third match we both mulligan but his hand is worse than mine. I play a choke but he has cavern so I do not dare to attack. When I play regal force he concedes.


So I got half the matches with an untested and raw deck, with a high lack of needed cards. I won 8 matches: 3 with staff + priest/archdruid, 2 with genesis wave, a couple with glimpse and one fetching regal force (surprisingly I didn't win any match attacking with elves, all 8 were emrakul wins). The lone skullclamp appeared once and I had an archdruid in play, so it didn't anything. I like to have different routes to victory, making the deck harder to disrupt. 1 staff+4 glimpse+2 genesis wave+1 skullclamp+1 regal force make 9 cards to combo. Staff was an instant win the three times I played it, genesis wave was instant win both times I played it. Both awesome. Glimpse is a must, gives an easy 2 or 3 cards when it's not winning the game. Skullclamp is useless with archdruid, and I have quite esteem on archdruid, so it will go off for sure, maybe for a third wave, or summoning trap. Or even a regal force.

Greaves were relevant once to activate fauna shaman to win in the same turn and IIRC to win with staff the same turn I played a titania/archdruid.

Fauna is great and maybe deserves another spot. She fetches archdruid, viridian, regal force and emrakul: mana, answers, gas and win condition.

Metamorph is cute, and will stay. He is second archdruid to win in the aggro route or get enough mana. He is another regal force if first fizzles. he is a viridian shaman. he is a batterskull or BSC. Without fauna I wouldn't play it but now it's a pretty decent 1 of.

Viridian shaman stays for sure, but I'm not sold on zealot. I don't want to inmolate himself to be useful, and there are not so many enchantments to be a key card. Against oath and golem he is usually slow, often too much.

elvish visionary was ok. he is never broken, (just used once with symbiote) but helps getting mana with titania/archruid or heritage. Still I don't know if it's good enough.

heritage feels a bit poor near titania/archdruid, but allows quick starts and alternative mana ramp. I'm not sure if I should drop she to 3. Birchlore are not coming in, the deck is mono-green and has greater costs than usual, while I have few non-mana elves. I understand they are good with glimpse and skullclamp, but now they are not the primary key to victory. with 3 or 4 heritage druid, nettle is a 4 of.

archdruid and titania. I played 4 and 3, and sided often 1 titania, but at least 3 times I had 2 mana and an archdruid sitting in my hand. Archdruid +1/+1 was never relevant, since I combo'ed quickly. I would have tot test it again and again.

2 quirion, 2 symbiote. Quirion allowed combo in T2 once, and works better with titania and archdruid (even heritage). symbiote works better with glimpse, visionary and dodging removal. both really nice with titania and archdruid.

3 llanowar, 3 fyndhorn, 2 arbor. Played a small mix because of revoker (relevant once). I missed them sometimes, specially against bug and they could have avoided 1-2 mulligans. I'd like to play one more probably.

pendelhaven was overall worse than a forest. Against bug allowed to start winning the combat race, but a waste on it killed my options. Against restoration angel it was not enough to represent a real deal.

pact of summoning is good, but it won't go up. I don't want to play it unless I have 4 lands or 3 lands and at least 2 mana elves. Should I play GSZ in this spot? Maybe, but I didn't have them. GSZ is worse with cage (and I already was playing Genesis Wave), more mana intensive, and a waste of mana if countered, while it does not give a card under glimpse and does not work with caverns (if I played them). But of course, GSZ fetches for dryad arbor, dodges COTV, and does not kill you.

I missed cavern of souls, for sure. Probably they involve playing another land because of wastes, but elves is a fast deck and most decks get the control role against us, so caverns ensures that our creatures enter the battlefield. I'm not sure with cradle, since I seldom found myself with 2 critters and not enough mana.


The side was a crap. Choke does not belong to this deck, it's a card intended to more controlling decks. It didn't stop anyone in the massive way I expected. Cage should have been played against gushbond (my mistake) since both his wincons are hated (tinker and y.will), but I didn't sb in against anyone. xantid didn't appeared but it seems a solid card against blue. thorn can be ok against fastest decks, but few decks win happily by T3 even if unmolested. I'm not sure if thorn is better than mindbreak trap, but it's quite asymmetric and I like it. Relic is another out to dredge and relevant against ooze, tarmo, snapcaster, y.will... but as I have said, I prefer to go out to combo, I don't like to rely on defensive cards. I never played imperious perfect, when I needed it 3CC was too much.



What does the deck need? I lost to heavy counterwall on my critters and lily against bug. Imperious was meant to be a horse in this pairing, but I never got her. Caverns would help for sure. I expected to land any of the engines (bug is no landstill), but just got it in first match.

I lost to golem, because ratchet on titania+revoker on llanowar+strip mine slowed me and I never draw a third land. Golem was the only real issue, since I play enought CC2 and CC3 to be more or less safe from ratchet bomb.

I lost to golem again. And then I lost to T1 sphere, T2 cotv at 1. Yes, golem is an issue, and also it's sphere when I don't have any acceleration. COTV would be less trouble with caverns.

Finally I lost to card advantage, filtering from vendillion (taking my genesis wave from my hand) and angel killing a critter while reusing vendillion. I'm not sure how to plan the sb against this pairing. Thorn is not impressive, xantid dies easily and the aggro route can be hard as it is now. Still it just takes a bomb to win the match if opponent does not have heavy overdraw.


Now I have to think cards to deal with spheres (specially golem) and decide how would I focus against faster decks.

Thank you for your report.  I think there are some interesting things to consider in your list -- both in how to attack the metagame, and some lessons learned through your experience.  

Fast Mana
First, 15 hard mana sources seems a little low to me, especially given the lack of non-Elf acceleration in terms of Black Lotus and Mox Emerald.  They may not do much some times, but when they are relevant, they are spectacular.  Even if the play is just Land --> Lotus --> Llanowar Elf when staring down a Sphere of Resistance, that's still a lot better than being locked out from under it. I would play Lotus and Emerald if you're not playing Sanctioned vintage, and I would probably also play a Gaea's Cradle or two.  The important thing to note, however, is that Gaea's Cradles must only be considered to be spells in this deck. They are not meant to be considered lands.  

Llanowar / Fyndhorn / Mystics

Second, I think I might go as high as 10 Llanowar Elf Variants.  Against Workshops, landing the Turn 1 Mana Elf is essential when on the play to try and stay above the Sphere effects. As Protoaddict mentioned, Elvish Mystic has given us another option to combat the menace that is Phyrexian Revoker, and in my opinion, that card is vastly superior to Arbor Elf. As I think you mentioned in your post, Arbor Elf has a string of vulnerabilities that can be more easily exploited than other one drop elves, including (but not limited to):  vulnerability to Pithing Needle, reducing our choice for lands, and a weakness to Strip Mine.  In any case, landing that turn one Llanowar Elf variant against Shops on the play is a very, very, very big deal.  

Elvish Archdruid

Moving on to your unique choices on combo variants, I applaud you for trying out the Elvish Archdruid plan.  Elvish Archdruid, like Priest of Titania, seems like it could be very effective against Mishra's Workshop variants, while also adding some small protection against Big Blue's targeted removal.  In your list, of course, it also fuels Genesis Wave, protects your ability to play Summoner's Pact, and lets you go crazy with Staff of Domination.  These are all very attractive elements!  

Unfortunately, as much as I want to like Elvish Archdruid, many of its strengths can be turned into weaknesses that are quite unfortunate.  My first problem with Elivsh Archdruid is its converted mana cost.  Three may just be way too high to play against Mishra's Workshop.  Playing it on turn 2 against Shops seems very difficult through a sphere, even if we're on the play.  Priest of Titania sneaks in as long as we make our land drop, but Elvish Archdruid will probably need a little more help.  I certainly want to see Priest more often than Archdruid in this regard -- so, at the very least, I would consider switching the numbers of those two next time.  

While the +1/+1 buff for your creatures has many advantages, I'm not sure how relevant it will be in the long run.  You need at least two in play to start hiding from Pyroclasm, which seems difficult in the short term.  Against Fishy-type decks, it's not going to help your elves very much against Tarmogoyfs or other bigger creatures -- unless, once again, we're talking 2/1s and you have two Archdruids in play to trade profitably.  Even this seems marginal, however, since I agree with your assessment earlier that Fishy match-ups should generally be favorable for us.  I'm sorry that you stalled out against that BUG fish deck.

One of my biggest problems with Archdruid is that it turns off Skullclamp.  In my opinion, Skullclamp is the most reliable draw engine that we have access to, since it can come down early against harder control decks, and provide incremental advantage if we're forced to play the long game. If you're on the Archdruid plan with any more than 1, Skullclamp probably should be cut completely.  Unless you can somehow protect the Archdruid and force creature-based decks to block attacking creatures that have been clamped, then it's probably not doing enough.  It's not worth the miser's Clamp on the off chance that you can use it to combo out without dropping an Archdruid.  

The biggest advantage of Archdruid in your list probably lies with your choice of combo kills.  I like Elvish Archdruid's ability to ramp into both Regal Force and Emrakul without having to jump through many hoops, which seems very, very good. It also provides diversity for the Phyrexian Revoker nightmare.  Genesis Wave and Staff of Domination both wildly benefit from the Archdruid, of course, but I have problems with both of those win conditions in the long run, and I think it's better to talk about them by themselves.  

Genesis Wave

Genesis Wave is a very tough sell for me, but I'm glad that you had some success with it.  As I will probably repeat incessantly, my biggest problem with Genesis Wave is that it does very little against Workshops.  If you manage to curve out like a dream, going T1 Llanowar, T2 Priest, T3 Archdruid or something similar, it can be a boon, but there are many things that have the ability to mess that up.  If you don't have Priest or Archdruid, or if they get countered or killed, Genesis Wave becomes much, much worse. A timely Phyrexian Revoker or a chain of Tangle Wires can be problematic in this regard.   It doesn't do much if you've already started to combo off Glimpse, and it's worse in multiples if you have to pass the turn to give a control deck the ability to untap, catch its footing, and reassert itself. I don't like the idea of casting it for incremental value when you can just win the game, although it does seem good with infinite mana....

Staff of Domination

Speaking of Staff of Domination, I'm very excited that you wanted to try this out.  Staff has the opportunity to solve many of the problems with this deck.  If we're positing that Elvish Archdruid and Priest of Titania are the best tools to combat the Workshop menace, then Staff and its variants probably become the single best combo enablers for the deck.  Staff, specifically, has the opportunity to do a lot.  Obviously, generating infinite mana and winning the game is pretty strong, but even the incremental options of Staff seem like they can be a boon.  Tapping your opponent's Blightsteel seems okay, as does drawing a card if you're stalled out. The more I try to find faults with Staff of Domination, the less I find I'm able to do so.  Instead of boring everyone with details, I'll just say that I'm concerned that we need four Elves in play for staff to be spectacular, more-or-less, and that without Priest or Archdruid, it's much less synergistic with Glimpse than, say, Skullclamp, which might be an issue.  

I've been a fan of trying Umbral Mantel, since I believe that only needing one less Elf in play can be the difference between success and failure, so that might be something to try.  The vulnerability to Null Rod is a little disconcerting to me, as well.  

Other Comments

Summoner's Pact has always felt like a trap to me.  Playing Pact many times feels like Russian Roulette, especially in the control match-up, and I believe it does much less against Shops than Green Sun's Zenith.  I'd much rather play Zenith, but the risk / reward is very attractive.  

Fauna Shaman is pretty interesting, but--like you--I wonder if she's necessary.  She seems clunky at the very least.  I may try her out, however.

Lighting Greaves seems interesting the more that I think about it -- especially when trying to win with Glimpse of Nature.  My first instinct is that it's probably not good enough, and it seems you had similar experiences in this tournament.  

Viridian Zealot is pretty awesome.

I'm very surprised at your affinity for Phyrexian Metamorph.  I don't think there are many opponents' creatures that you want to copy with it, and it doesn't KO opposing Legends anymore.  It seems to me that you rarely want to copy anything that isn't Elvish Archdruid, so I don't know what the benefits are of playing it.  



In any case, thank you so much for sharing this report.  

Edited because I can't add.

[xouman]

@rpf5029 : wow, very long and productive post, so I can have problems quoting it. thank you for your time

About fast mana / Llanowar / Fyndhorn / Mystics: yes 14+1 felt light. Not only I had to mulligan 2 or 3 times because I dind't have ANY land, or 1 land and no llanowar, but a strip mine or wasting the pendelhaven (happened twice) was a problem. Maybe adding green fetchlands (I own polluteds and floodeds but just 1 green fetch) would avoid part of the problem, but won't be a complete solution. And I could do with 10 llanowars, at least with so many CC3 cards post sb. I would test them, but I have problems choosing what to drop for them.

Genesis wave. I think I was lucky with it because it didn't got countered and I got enough mana. spheres is not a problem for wave: the problem is not having generators, wave is way better than glimpse with spheres. And while getting wave countered is a time walk for opponent, often it just means losing 5-6 points of damage. If you can attack for >8 probably you are attacking if you expect a counter. Still, think of wave like jace: it makes you tap, but if it connects, it's a win. Against big blue would you prefer skullclamp? It's even easier to counter/destroy/hate.


Archdruid. The real change of this build is not titania, or wave, or the lack of birchlore rangers. Is the swap from skullclamp to archdruid. Less than 2 years ago I bought a cheap elves core deck without skullclamps and just 1 archdruid, and since I own skullclamps I tested it, finding it awesome with titania. T1 mana elf, T2 titania + elf/skullclamp mean T3 go nuts most of the time. Against the wall it was crazy and fun.

But then misstep appeared, and oh crap, it broke the deck. misstep or cotv 1 killed the deck. GSZ helps but again is bad with glimpse (nonbo) skullclamp (too mana intensive). besides against aggro decks I just could win comboing. And then I toyed with archdruid, and some troubles faded. I needed 3 mana by T2 with archdruid, but then future was bright ahead. The list was much more resilient against cotv 1 (in fact the game I won against kuldotha mud had a T1 or T2 cotv on 1 but priest, archdruid and wave got the game) and misstep and against spheres after I had a real manabase. Besides it provides insta win with staff, makes regal force easier to cast and emrakul is castable just with priest+archdruid+quirion+llanowar and a couple of lands, for example. While it's sometimes slower to turn on, it's a horse himself. Greaves are 90% because of him, to protect him and take profit of early mana.

There is a point I realized on saturday, and that's the aggro plan is not as easy and it seems. Restoration angel was frightneing me in last match so I didn't attack even with a just casted archdruid and 3 more elves. Vintage is fast and I don't want to spend 4 turns attacking, I want to win in the spot. Archdruid was never better than titania (I one game I could have used nettle and viridian shaman to kill wurmcoil tokens but chose to keep them to have a huge wave) but against bug and mud titania would haven't stayed in my hand as archdruid did. Still, think about new pyromancer deck, for example. You want 2/2 elves to kill attacking elementals. Or you want 3/3 nettle sentinel to kill golems. just i don't know how often. Probably you are right and in a combo approach or against wastelands, titania is potentially faster.

fauna shaman has to stay. Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly, but she is nearly a demonic tutor, a sfm... while she is not fast, she means winning 1-2 turns after, if unresponded. she can fetch more than half the cards in the deck, specially the win conditions. it's the second best card with greaves after titania/archdruid. It's a question of reliability, not quickness. Both games I won with wave was because of her + greaves. If I had to take her I would play another Regal Force but then I could have matches with no titania/archdruid and RF sitting in hand.


Zealot is not impressive by any means. I never get him when I want to, and when you are comboing the best it can do is tap himself with sentinels using heritage ability. But of course it's a potential out to cotv, oath, spheres, golem, batterskull, even cage (if you plan a big wave). I think I never have played it as a key card in > 40 matches between vintage and modern, just because I play it as a singleton or because it did nothing when I drawn it.

Probably you are right on Phyrexian metamorph. However I played a couple in modern and was very happy with them copying archdruid or regal force. It's a response to BSC, not the best one, but apart from deglamer (and staff, of course) I can't find good answers to BSC. Maybe the second staff is better than metamorph? could be...

And thinking about MUD hate, the more I think, the more I like the idea of dismember. Instant response to golem, hellkite, kuldotha and revoker. Good against other aggro (thought I don't want to play dismember as a defensive card, but just to make path for my combo), i could drop imperious perfect to play it.

3 grafdigger's cage (oath, dredge, blue without creatures)
3 thorn of ametyst (oath, blue without creatures)
3 xantid swarm (blue)
3 dismember (mud, some aggro)
2 viridian shaman (mud)
1 relic of progenitus (dredge, anything with tarmos, y.will or snapcasters)

the problem with that sideboard is that spoils maindeck. What do I prefer against gush? try to combo before or play thorns, cages and those things that keep me away from winning?

I would have to see other vintage elves sideboards to make a better idea...


Edit: didn't knew umbra mantle. seems nearly as good as staff, but still equipped creature has to connect to win, and that could be 2 turns more to win. on the other hand, it's true that you need one less elf. however staff does more without titania/archdruid online. Against pure combo, with no creatures, I could prefer mantle because it's faster, but otherwise staff is better. You will win on the spot (in the >99% of the cases) even if you cannot attack by winning 1 zillion lives.

[rpf5029]

As far as extra mana elves are concerned, I think you could reasonably start by cutting at least the Skullclamp.  Maybe the Phyrexian Metamorph, too?  Not sure.  Maybe Viridian Zealot would be good if it's not working out for you.

I get your point about Fauna Shaman, I suppose.  It's definitely a good idea to try out.  It seems as though it's wanting for some more splashy creatures, though.  If you have 15 mana, Emrakul just wins, and you have Regal Force to find... but maybe you can try some other good things -- like Eternal Witness or Ezuri?  I'm definitely interested in seeing if I like Fauna Shaman more than Elvish Visionary, but it's just so slow.  Landing Fauna Shaman may be impressive, but with only one Fauna Shaman in the deck, it doesn't seem like it does enough.  I do like her a lot more with Green Sun's Zenith over Summoner's Pact, I suppose.

Most of what made Elves! so successful in the past was its explosiveness.  I'm not convinced that this version has a chance against other combo decks (which it almost doesn't have a prayer of racing), Dredge, or Big Blue.  Giving Big Blue more time to tutor up mass removal is a death knell that this deck seems very ill equipped to address, despite its redundancy.  In my mind, the only thing that makes this worthwhile is the vast improvement in the Shops match-up.  But the Shop match-up was so bad to begin with, I'm not sure that this makes up enough ground to compromise the match-up versus the rest of the field.  

You're definitely on to something with Dismember.  I would argue that the three biggest offenders in the Shops match-up are now probably Kuldoltha Forgemaster, Lodestone Golem, and Phyrexian Revoker.  [I really can't stress how much of a beating Revoker has been in testing].  

As for the rest of the sideboard, I'm not sure that Thorn of Amethyst is worth the time.  Against most blue decks, I'd rather maximize the Cages and Swarms, and then add more Artifact hate or Dredge hate.  Dosan / City of Solitude might be better.  Caller of the Claw would be hilarious against board sweepers with Fauna Shaman and Summoner's Pact around.

Edit:  Also, regarding Umbral Mantel, once you hit four Elves, any other Elves that can also tap will get infinitely large when the Priest / Archdruid does. It can make the combat step a tad easier. That makes it 1 - 2 turns faster than Staff of Domination.  
 

[Protoaddict]

I think, since this list is not running GSZ, skullclamp or any artifacts that it cannot live without, maybe it should consider some cards:

4 Elvish spirit guides - Get past spheres and get your guys in play.
1 Mox emerald
1 Black lotus

4 Grafdiggers cage (board)
4 Null rod

If you make the deck faster with mana accel, you have to worry about dredge less + cages. If your not skullclamping your squad, your maintaining a board state and you can run nullrod

Basically you need to be able to threaten super fast, but you still have the aggro board state to fall back on.

[msg67183]

I have found that having GSZ targets for your matchups is the best plan. I play 1 Scavenging Ooze, 3 Viridian Shaman in the board, 1 main, 2 Wirewood Symbiote main, 1 board. I also play 3 Deathrite Shaman main and 4 Abrupt Decay in the board. Abrupt decay allows you to get around Chalice, blow up Spheres and Trini, Revokers, etc. I am really wanting to try Staff. Playing a Concordant Crossroads would just allow you to just win that turn.
Other cards I have been looking at:

Essence Warden: life gain seems good when you chain dudes together, also good against Dredge and ETW, as well as Young Pyromancer
Vexing Shusher: allows draw engines through
Oracle of Nectars: adds a buffer between Aggro decks
Craterhoof Behemoth: alternate win con that can be GSZ'd
Dauntless Escort: does well against mass removal
Rhys the Exiled: life gain could be nice against Aggro
Loaming Shaman: GSZ target to beat Dredge

Congrats on your record, beating Shops round 1 seems good

Edit: I also like the idea behind Dosan, making your win pretty easy without worry of counters.

[xouman]

As far as extra mana elves are concerned, I think you could reasonably start by cutting at least the Skullclamp.  Maybe the Phyrexian Metamorph, too?  Not sure.  Maybe Viridian Zealot would be good if it's not working out for you.

I get your point about Fauna Shaman, I suppose.  It's definitely a good idea to try out.  It seems as though it's wanting for some more splashy creatures, though.  If you have 15 mana, Emrakul just wins, and you have Regal Force to find... but maybe you can try some other good things -- like Eternal Witness or Ezuri?  I'm definitely interested in seeing if I like Fauna Shaman more than Elvish Visionary, but it's just so slow.  Landing Fauna Shaman may be impressive, but with only one Fauna Shaman in the deck, it doesn't seem like it does enough.  I do like her a lot more with Green Sun's Zenith over Summoner's Pact, I suppose.

Most of what made Elves! so successful in the past was its explosiveness.  I'm not convinced that this version has a chance against other combo decks (which it almost doesn't have a prayer of racing), Dredge, or Big Blue.  Giving Big Blue more time to tutor up mass removal is a death knell that this deck seems very ill equipped to address, despite its redundancy.  In my mind, the only thing that makes this worthwhile is the vast improvement in the Shops match-up.  But the Shop match-up was so bad to begin with, I'm not sure that this makes up enough ground to compromise the match-up versus the rest of the field.  

You're definitely on to something with Dismember.  I would argue that the three biggest offenders in the Shops match-up are now probably Kuldoltha Forgemaster, Lodestone Golem, and Phyrexian Revoker.  [I really can't stress how much of a beating Revoker has been in testing].  

As for the rest of the sideboard, I'm not sure that Thorn of Amethyst is worth the time.  Against most blue decks, I'd rather maximize the Cages and Swarms, and then add more Artifact hate or Dredge hate.  Dosan / City of Solitude might be better.  Caller of the Claw would be hilarious against board sweepers with Fauna Shaman and Summoner's Pact around.

Edit:  Also, regarding Umbral Mantel, once you hit four Elves, any other Elves that can also tap will get infinitely large when the Priest / Archdruid does. It can make the combat step a tad easier. That makes it 1 - 2 turns faster than Staff of Domination.  

In fact I was thinking that you were right, and metamorph is one of the weakests cards in the deck. Metamorph means resilience, but at the cost of explosiveness. Is the card you want to draw while you start comboing, after you have an engine, and great when you are risking stalling. In the middle of glimpse it could be a overcost nettle to use with heritage, a quirion or symbiote to untap manaelves, or a regal force to draw another bunch of cards. I see it as a preordain in gush, or impulse in oath. Still, metamorph is not fetcheable with pact and does nothing in an empty field.

1 skullclamp or 4 archdruids, not both. I have been thinking and I still don't want to drop archdruid, but you are right and titania is better in order to combo. By now, skullclamp goes out.

Eternal was in the main in my modern elves, and ezuri in the side. Eternal is great in a field with lots of removal, against slower decks. ezuri saves from combat removal, bolts and so... but in vintage seems worse than, say, imperious. Imperious is meant to pump elves, but more important, create new elves to tap for tangle, chumpblock, or help titania/arch. Still she never gave me a match, but just because I seldom draw her, and she attacts lots of removal.

I agree: thorn is worse than xantids or dosan. it's off. Same for choke as I said, very cute, but near useless.

About umbra mantle, I didn't realized that it could also pump llanowars and so after titania/arch. The best scenario you can find is T1 llanowar, t2 titania, elf, t3 umbra mantle an attack with two 1001/1001 dudes. You can also play T1 llanowar, T2 titania, elf, t3 staff (and another elf) and you are probably there too. While I agree that mana is tighter (6 mana instead of 3) and you need one more creature (removal is not an issue to the fourth creature, because if opponent has removal he takes titania out), it's still capable to win in the same turn. Besides, against opponents with an untapped creature staff wins on the spot. but of course I concede that sometimes it would need one more turn and that's a real issue. I think it would need tons of matches to show which is better to go combo, Mantle is a win condition under so many titanias and archdruids.

Fauna/pact of summoning/gsz. Fauna seems better with gsz than with summoning, but you are fetching her rarely. Summoning pact is 60% going for regal force, 30% for archdruid and the other 10% starts with heritage druid, wirewood symbiote/quirion ranger or even nettle. And viridian against mud, of course. You are not tutoring for fauna: she is the tutor. it's like casting mystical tutor for demonic. You can do it, but you need a good reason. In fact you just can fetch Emrakul with fauna and not with pact or gsz (and metamorph if played).

Fauna/visionary. This is another calling. I admit I'm always happy to see visionary (except when I need a 1cc elf). But I really think I prefer tutoring any creature to draw 1 card on the spot. Of course playing just 2 symbiotes, and having greaves helps. Visionary is a sub-engine, you want to play it T2 to fetch the second forest o a 1cc elf. Or to dig when your main plan has been spoiled. Playing fauna in T2 means T3 archdruid/titania and then probably T4 regal force, even without greaves. Less explosive, but it must be destroyed or she goes for the win. In traditional glimpse/skullclamp deck I'd choose visionary for sure, but here, looking for the big turn, I prefer fauna.



@Protoaddict : null rod buys us time, but I don't know how many. It is dead or near dead in some pairings, and I was planning to play it in the sb but cut it for thorn and choke. ESG are interesting, at least one if you are playing summoning pact: Emerald and lotus are a must, but I played in sanctioned metagame.


@msg67183:
Essence Warden: Played it in modern. In vintage I do not worry about lives. I was happy to see wurmcoils, batterskulls and students or warfare. You are quite fast if unmolested.
Vexing Shusher: I like it a lot and cut it in the last moment. i could play 1 in the main.
Oracle of Nectars: really, I just find once problems with life, in a modern match against 2 deathrite shaman. In that game I got 10 lands from 18 or 20 cards.
Craterhoof Behemoth: I know it is played in other formats, but still I'm not sure if he is better than Umbra Mantle or Ezuri. The fact that my creatures are tapped or have summoning sickness when Behemoth enters would mean losing a turn, but I agree that with >5 creatures it is a serious win condition. the more i see it, the more i like, but again when I go off, most of the creatures are tapped.
Dauntless Escort: it requires white, and it's just reactive. I'd prefer caller of the craw, but i don't play it
Rhys the Exiled: Again, I haven't faced life problems. i want to avoid one turn loses (like BSC, tendrils, dredge, griselbrand) and hate on my play (spheres, counters/cotv). attack me all day, I'm happy.
Loaming Shaman: GSZ target to beat Dredge
Concordant Crossroads: I can't see why it is better than greaves. Greaves, for 1 more mana, also protect a creature, only affects your creatures, and is inmune to misstep/cotv

Btw beating shops on Round 1 was easy since he only played hate on the match I lost. wurmcoils and batterskulls mean you can play freely and get 16 mana on T4 or play a T4. Against mud I need to connect a titania/archdruid without revoker and then everything is easier. cotv could be a trouble with some hands, but this version has lots of cards with >CC1 and can win over it.

[msg67183]

Another GSZ target I forget to mention that I'd like to try is Caustic Wasps. Seems like a strong game against Workshops.
I can agree with you about the life gain cards, I just had the idea of having a safety buffer against Aggro decks, basically time walking them.
Escort would solely be a GSZ Target, plus if it gets into your hand I play Deathrite Shaman and 4 Birchlore Rangers.
Have you thought about trying Thrun, the Last Troll? Seems very strong against Control, but Dosan might actually be better, I never heard of him until you pointed him out Thank You for that!

[Protoaddict]

@Protoaddict : null rod buys us time, but I don't know how many. It is dead or near dead in some pairings, and I was planning to play it in the sb but cut it for thorn and choke. ESG are interesting, at least one if you are playing summoning pact: Emerald and lotus are a must, but I played in sanctioned metagame.

Reconsider your stance on ESG, I think you need to play 4. the reasoning is if your using it on a combo turn the card disadvantage will not be felt or relevant and you will probably just win the game.

If you are using it to fight shops out from under a sphere, you may not be able to pact for it because of the sphere, and if your short on mana you may not be able to pay for the pact later. I mean I haven't played elves since legacy but in my head the list should start with this core:

4 glimpse of nature
4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Heritage Druid
10 mana elves
1 black lotus
1 Mox Emerald

And then build from there. Another card you MAY want to consider in this list is Primal command. It can timewalk your opponent and fetch a missing piece, and mana is probably not important on that turn. Alternately rebuking ceremony could be good in some environments as a sideboard card.

[rpf5029]

@Protoaddict : null rod buys us time, but I don't know how many. It is dead or near dead in some pairings, and I was planning to play it in the sb but cut it for thorn and choke. ESG are interesting, at least one if you are playing summoning pact: Emerald and lotus are a must, but I played in sanctioned metagame.

Reconsider your stance on ESG, I think you need to play 4. the reasoning is if your using it on a combo turn the card disadvantage will not be felt or relevant and you will probably just win the game.

If you are using it to fight shops out from under a sphere, you may not be able to pact for it because of the sphere, and if your short on mana you may not be able to pay for the pact later. I mean I haven't played elves since legacy but in my head the list should start with this core:

4 glimpse of nature
4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Heritage Druid
10 mana elves
1 black lotus
1 Mox Emerald

And then build from there. Another card you MAY want to consider in this list is Primal command. It can timewalk your opponent and fetch a missing piece, and mana is probably not important on that turn. Alternately rebuking ceremony could be good in some environments as a sideboard card.

Although I have tried it once or twice to help against Workshops, Elvish Spirit Guide is pretty bad against most other decks.  It's inherent card disadvantage is really important if you're low on creatures in your hand and are operating under a single Glimpse of Nature.  Also, if you draw it with no other creatures in your hand, it can stop your combo dead.  Especially in the early stages, a three mana elf is very expensive -- especially if you can't build up some mana by playing multiple elves first.  Four seems very high to me indeed, but the advantages of Spirit Guides against shops might require some more testing. 

[Protoaddict]

With the change to Gaea's Cradle (which you should be running) I think by turn 2 it is very reasonable to assume you will have 4+ mana over the turns if left to goldfish.

Really ESG's big benefit is it when you combine it with Priest and Cradle. First turn priest followed by Cradle, Mana Elf, your already generating 4 mana off them, let alone if you manage to drop more.

Also remember with elves that if you cant combo off, a great amount of the time you can just aggro plan people to death.

[msg67183]

I know this might sound crazy, but I really can't see my version of this deck playing Black Lotus and Mox Emerald. The biggest reason I didn't play them was because I didn't own them, but after playing for a bit I have really been happy with the deck without them. Sure they REALLY help against Shops, but if people haven't noticed, Shops have been on a decline, at least in the North East. I have not had a problem of running out of mana mid combo, and I have even comboed on turn 2 a few times, mostly turn 3. A thing to remember is this is an Aggro deck, with a potential to combo out of nowhere, most people see it as a Combo deck that has a plan B of Aggro. I might be wrong but this is just my view.

[xouman]

I'd play lotus and mox emerald if I owned them, for sure. Sometimes emerald is worse than a forest (now I can just think of quirion ranger) but usually is better. And lotus allows crazy early plays.


I just have gotten a T2 win in a tournament and it involved T1 mana elf, T2 heritage, quirion, tap for mana, glimpse, nettle, wirewood symbiote and then the second glimpse. Before I draw with glimpse I needed 2 forest, 1 mana elf, 1 heritage, 1 quirion, 1 nettle and 1 symbiote. 7 cards from a total 9 (I was on the draw). Not easy by any means. Playing titania/archdruid makes even harder going off on T2 (but far easier in T3)


And I thought of elves as a 60% combo - 40% aggro. That's why I played 4 archdriuid, But all 8 wins on saturday involved emrakul

[msg67183]

I have been testing Elves! against Blue Angels and I get my ASS handed to me, mostly from EE. I was wondering what I could use to beat it? Krosan Grip? Differentiate my list to accommodate main deck Archdruids and Ezuri? Null Rod?