[m13] Liliana of the Dark Realms

[xouman]

Liliana of the Dark Realms   2bb
Planeswalker - Liliana    Mythic Rare
+1: Search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Target creature gets +X/+x or -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-6: You get an emblem with "Swamps you control have ': Add {B}{B}{B} to your mana pools.'"

3



First of all, CC4, althought BB is not always available in most control decks.
First ability grants card advantage, while growing liliana. Ok, drawing a land is not as good as drawing another card (at least if you can play 2BB), but is not the worst thing you can do.
Second ability kills creatures or pumps your own. Quite expensive for -3, and so-so in vintage, but could be useful with so creatures around.
Third ability grants lots of mana. Not impressive by any means

I don't think this is vintage playable.

[bisamratte]

I don't think this is vintage playable.

+1

This card does not do anything you want to do in Vintage.

[Daenyth]

If she cost BB I'd play her in vintage. As it is she's not efficient enough for her effect in this format, I think.

[Meddling Mike]

Nice card from a design perspective, but pretty sure this will never see serious play in Vintage.

[Wagner]

She does nothing, nothing at all. For 4 mana you get maybe 1-2 extra swamps out of her, and she can't take out any creature the turns she comes into play without killing herself, making her a pretty bad removal. She can't keep up with any 2/x already on the board. She can't kill bigger guys like Tarmo or BSC.
Her ultimate is pretty useless and you should have plenty of mana already by the time you get there. Little Liliana is MUCH better, and hotter!

[vaughnbros]

Seriously how do they even consider printing this?  It's not even a bomb in limited.  Pitiful.

[mikekilljoy]

Seriously how do they even consider printing this?  It's not even a bomb in limited.  Pitiful.

Commander. That is all.

[boggyb]

If she cost BB I'd play her in vintage. As it is she's not efficient enough for her effect in this format, I think.

Yeah why isn't this BB with 1 or 2 loyalty? That'd be killer. As it is, oh well. She does a lot of what Dark Times wants to do in the shops match up, but is seriously outmoded by the cheaper and much more powerful version.

Why on earth doesn't the ultimate destroy your opponent's resources? Too bad. Just utterly useless

[Nydaeli]

Monoblack or B/G Cabal Coffers control used to be a thing in Legacy a few years ago.  This card would've been awesome there.  Modern Legacy is probably too fast though.  And yeah, the card is not good enough for Vintage.

[Saya]

why is her ultimate ability so weak?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

why is her ultimate ability so weak?

because its an edh card.

[Wagner]

Also, why can't she win the game by herself, I thought that was an important design point for planeswalkers. I guess the previous Liliana also didn't allow that, but still, they are stretching farther and farther from original ideal. At least little Lili could stunt your opponent's resources, this one, again, does NOTHING.

[MagicMan]

This card is a let down plain and simple. I used to look forward to spoiled Planeswalkers but recently they have mostly failed to impress : (

[MaximumCDawg]

I feel like she's being dismissed too quickly.  Just like Jace, this is a 4cc Planeswalker in a color Vintage plays that has FIVE abilities (the second one is really two).  Here's a run down:

Casting Cost - At 2BB, she's borderline playable in many different decks provided the ability is worth it.  In decks running blue she competes with J:TMS, Gifts, Fact, etc. In Dark Times, she has the same cost as Helm or Leyline, but I feel like she doesn't actually compete with them for slots because they do something different.

First Ability - Repeated mana fixing at 2BB would be unplayable, but there's more here than that.  

1.   She draws you an additional card each turn, albeit a swamp.  Does this matter?  Is there a deck that really wants more cards in hand, regardless of what they are?  Faithless Looting, for example, gets much better if you have a steady stream of junk to pitch.  Ditto Land Tax / Scroll Rack type decks.  

2.  She shuffles your deck for free each turn.  If you are running a Sensei's top, this is huge.  You're seeing a fresh grip every end step!  (Also Panglacial Wurm lol)

3.  She thins your deck.  We run so few lands in Vintage as it is, if you had mostly swamp-type lands, you could significantly deplete the lands left in your deck in only a handful of turns.  More gas = better.

Second Ability - This is really two different abilities rolled into one.  She can deal damage to an opponent or kill a creature (basically).  Now, both of these options kill her if you use them right away.  But the fact that Lily can function either as pump or removal as the situation demands draws my attention.  Swinging with a Selkie?  Pay 2BB to draw 2 or 3 additional cards if you need gas.  Enemy drawing cards off confidant?  You have one more way of dealing with it in your deck.  

Third ability - Typically people don't really consider the final ability when evaluating a Planeswalker because, if you get there, you're winning anyway.  I think this is exactly the same.  If you do get there, her ult doesnt win, no, but it makes Yawgwill silly and ends your mana problems for all time.  It basically DOES end the game pretty fast if you're running X spells (Braingeyer and its million variants) or a Shade.  Her Ult also summons Grislebrand or Blightsteel Colossus, which is sometimes very relevant.

Conclusion: This is a GOOD planeswalker.  She functions as card advantage, mana fixing, removal, pump, and sometimes as 12 - 24 additional mana.  Whether she sees play depends on what she is competing with in a given deck.  She's not better than Jace, which is probably to be expected.  But she's really good.  If people think she's jank, I'd buy now.  If she's played, I predict it's in a deck that can leverage her abilities with Top, Selkie, and/or effects that scale with mana input, and for some reason does not have space or inclination to run other kinds of removal over her.

[vaughnbros]

First Ability - Repeated mana fixing at 2BB would be unplayable, but there's more here than that.  

1.   She draws you an additional card each turn, albeit a swamp.  Does this matter?  Is there a deck that really wants more cards in hand, regardless of what they are?  Faithless Looting, for example, gets much better if you have a steady stream of junk to pitch.  Ditto Land Tax / Scroll Rack type decks.  

2.  She shuffles your deck for free each turn.  If you are running a Sensei's top, this is huge.  You're seeing a fresh grip every end step!  (Also Panglacial Wurm lol)

3.  She thins your deck.  We run so few lands in Vintage as it is, if you had mostly swamp-type lands, you could significantly deplete the lands left in your deck in only a handful of turns.  More gas = better.

1. It does matter that its a swamp.  Getting a swamp when you have already casted a 4 mana noncreature nonartifact is generally not an advantage

2. Yes if you have a sensei's divining top or a jace out sure shuffling your library is good, but this is meaningless if you don't

3. She only thins your deck a couple cards unless you plan on reworking your entire mana base because she costs double black to play in the first place

Second Ability - This is really two different abilities rolled into one.  She can deal damage to an opponent or kill a creature (basically).  Now, both of these options kill her if you use them right away.  But the fact that Lily can function either as pump or removal as the situation demands draws my attention.  Swinging with a Selkie?  Pay 2BB to draw 2 or 3 additional cards if you need gas.  Enemy drawing cards off confidant?  You have one more way of dealing with it in your deck.  

Again the removal aspect of this is about as effective as a lightning bolt unless your reworking your mana base and the pump is a giant growth.  It costs her -3 to do this too which means you can probably only get it once.

Third ability - Typically people don't really consider the final ability when evaluating a Planeswalker because, if you get there, you're winning anyway.  I think this is exactly the same.  If you do get there, her ult doesnt win, no, but it makes Yawgwill silly and ends your mana problems for all time.  It basically DOES end the game pretty fast if you're running X spells (Braingeyer and its million variants) or a Shade.

The final ability is very important when evaluating a planeswalker it determines whether or not your opponent has to be concerned about the planeswalker growing on them.  Usually if a resolve a yawg will period its game I dont really need her ultimate to make it better.

Basically if you would need to construct a brand new deck in order to play her and I don't see the potential for her to be that overwhelming powerful.

[MaximumCDawg]

Basically if you would need to construct a brand new deck in order to play her and I don't see the potential for her to be that overwhelming powerful.

Right, she's not overwhelming.  She's no Jace.  But she does alot of different things fairly well - shes a good toolbox Planeswalker.  I dont know if she has a home, but I think people who are panning her are not thinking it through.

Again the removal aspect of this is about as effective as a lightning bolt unless your reworking your mana base and the pump is a giant growth.  It costs her -3 to do this too which means you can probably only get it once.

You're paying 2BB for a card that is sometimes a bolt... sometimes pump... sometimes CA... etc.  I think that comparing each of the abilities in isolation to better cards is exactly the mistake everyone made with Jace.  In Vintage, space is at a premium.  Useful Planeswalkers plug many different needs for a deck and so you might be willing to pay more for the same effect.

[vaughnbros]

Basically if you would need to construct a brand new deck in order to play her and I don't see the potential for her to be that overwhelming powerful.

Right, she's not overwhelming.  She's no Jace.  But she does alot of different things fairly well - shes a good toolbox Planeswalker.  I dont know if she has a home, but I think people who are panning her are not thinking it through.

All the panning is because when we see new planeswalkers we want them to be at least niche playable, especially after getting Tibalt in the last set.  This currently has no place in any format except for EDH.

Again the removal aspect of this is about as effective as a lightning bolt unless your reworking your mana base and the pump is a giant growth.  It costs her -3 to do this too which means you can probably only get it once.

You're paying 2BB for a card that is sometimes a bolt... sometimes pump... sometimes CA... etc.  I think that comparing each of the abilities in isolation to better cards is exactly the mistake everyone made with Jace.  In Vintage, space is at a premium.  Useful Planeswalkers plug many different needs for a deck and so you might be willing to pay more for the same effect.

I wouldn't have a problem with the second ability if it didnt kill her.  Its her +1 that does less than jace's +2 and that she has one of the worst ultimates of any planeswalker

[MaximumCDawg]

All the panning is because when we see new planeswalkers we want them to be at least niche playable, especially after getting Tibalt in the last set.  This currently has no place in any format except for EDH.

See, thats what I mean. Liliana is NOT Tibalt.  Tibalt only had one relevant ability, and if you wanted to use that ability, you had a laundry list of better options. 

"No obvious home" does not equate to "no place in any format."  She does alot of useful things at a conceivable cost.  I think she's very playable on paper, it just depends on the shell around it.  For example, I think this Walker is probably equal to or better than the Kamigawa walker from Avacyn Restored.

If by "niche playable" you mean "at least as good as Jace," well, I don't see that happening.

[vaughnbros]

"No obvious home" does not equate to "no place in any format."  She does alot of useful things at a conceivable cost.  I think she's very playable on paper, it just depends on the shell around it.  For example, I think this Walker is probably equal to or better than the Kamigawa walker from Avacyn Restored.

I don't see this.  Tamiyo is far less restrictive on your mana base construction and has far more versatility.  It also doesn't have to compete with other versions of itself, like 3 mana liliana, that are just plain better than it in most decks.

If by "niche playable" you mean "at least as good as Jace," well, I don't see that happening.

Niche playable means that it is extremely powerful in the right deck list not Jace power level.  The problem is that the niche this card fills, mono black decks, already have a superior planeswalker with the same exact name as this one...

[MaximumCDawg]

Niche playable means that it is extremely powerful in the right deck list not Jace power level.  The problem is that the niche this card fills, mono black decks, already have a superior planeswalker with the same exact name as this one...

I agree completely that Lily 2.0 is generally better than Lily 3.0 in a vacuum.  I don't think they fill the same role, though.  Lily has two abilities (excluding the ult): discard or edict.  This Lily has three - pump, swamp tutor, removal.  Sure, if you're only slotting her in for removal, Lily 2.0 is better.  But if you have a deck that can leverage the other two abilities...

[boggyb]

The other thing is, you really can't run both liliana's in the same deck, because of the legend rule. (Oh that we were playing Legends of the Five Rings and could upgrade a unique personality!) Is there any deck that would rather have this one than the 3-mana version? The one that, ahem, can be easily cast turn 1 off a ritual? No, there isn't -- maybe you can build one around this version but man that'd be a weird pile.

edit: Thing is, she would actually be really sweet for 2 or 3 mana, with 1 or 2 loyalty, specifically because of ritual. Her effects are all nightmarish for a shops player, for example, and decent against Fish, I guess. But at 4 you just can't get there in time.

[brianpk80]

MaximumCDawg, best analysis of the card so far by a long-shot.  Agreed on all counts.  This is a solid Planeswalker with no obvious home.

[MaximumCDawg]

But worry not!  I'm very cynical about Ajani 3.0.

[Darkenslight]

But worry not!  I'm very cynical about Ajani 3.0.

I don't know, that G/W Infect deck is looking rather sexy now.   

On a more serious note, this is probably not playable in the cirrent Vintage: however, I think it has potentia in a Proliferate combo-control deck with Maga and Black Sun's Zenith in Modern.

[Blue Lotus]

I feel like she's being dismissed too quickly.  Just like Jace, this is a 4cc Planeswalker in a color Vintage plays that has FIVE abilities (the second one is really two).

Your counting and card evaluation need work. Un. Play. A. Ble.

[serracollector]

This card works well in conjunction with Lotus Cobra, ensuring 2+ mana each turn, and is also easily castable off a turn 1 cobra, turn 2 land/fetch.  Maybe a newer version of "the rock" could be made around this new PW.  I'm not saying it's awesome, but it's not unplayable.

[brianpk80]

I feel like she's being dismissed too quickly.  Just like Jace, this is a 4cc Planeswalker in a color Vintage plays that has FIVE abilities (the second one is really two).

Your counting and card evaluation need work. Un. Play. A. Ble.

His structuring made it clear that the first ability contains three effects and it's implicit that the third ability is irrelevant.

[vaughnbros]

This card works well in conjunction with Lotus Cobra, ensuring 2+ mana each turn, and is also easily castable off a turn 1 cobra, turn 2 land/fetch.  Maybe a newer version of "the rock" could be made around this new PW.  I'm not saying it's awesome, but it's not unplayable.

Yes but cobra also makes it very easy to mana ramp your hand entire hand onto the table making Liliana 2.0's + ability extremely powerful in such a list.

[Wagner]

I feel like she's being dismissed too quickly.  Just like Jace, this is a 4cc Planeswalker in a color Vintage plays that has FIVE abilities (the second one is really two).

Your counting and card evaluation need work. Un. Play. A. Ble.

His structuring made it clear that the first ability contains three effects and it's implicit that the third ability is irrelevant.

In that case, Jace Fatesealing you or opponent is 2 different abilities, and bouncing your creatures or your opponent's also is 2 different ones, JAce has SIX abilities now!

[nedleeds]

Dreadful card. Made even worse by the fact that there's already a playable 3CC Lil. Either start it at a respectable loyalty like 4 ... or put the Swamp on the god damn battlefield. Either of those 2 things might have gotten it a sniff in legacy (still probably not Vintage ... in black 4CC I'd rather land a number of back breaking spells rather than bad rampant growth).