TPS + Griselbrand

[Ego_Sum]

The demon is on hype, that is true. It has broken the legacy eviroment (not that he is not beatable, but he is a hard contender indeed), and now people (me among those people) is trying to bring him to Vintage. I0 ve seen, and tried, lots of incarnations of Griselbrand decks (Ritual Oath, renovator, Griselbrand-non-ritual oath, ...). And I really can't say which one is the best, if there is any incarnation that stands out, each has strengths and weaknesses, but the following is the one I like the most.

TPGS ("The Perfect Griselbrand Storm", I dunno if it is an appropriate name but it fits with the philosophy of the deck)

Main deck 60

The Mana (30)

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

The Bussiness (18)

3 Show and Tell

3 Griselbrand
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

1 Necropotence

1 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall

The Protection (7)

4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

The Utility (5)

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard 15

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Steel Sabotage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Island
1 Dismember
1 Massacre

The reasons why I like it over Oath-oriented Griselbrand decks (ritual or non-ritual):

-Oath decks usually have some flaws I really dislike:
1-Too many slots for their plan which may turn into bad top decks or dead draws: every single oath deck uses 8 slots for Oath+Orchard and 2-3 Big fatties (there are some special oath decks that use 0-1 creatures, but is not the norm). This is even worse if they have alternative game plans (read 3).
2-They have a complicated manabase: their necessity of playing Orchards makes the mana baseless flexible than other blue decks, they have to play fewer fetch lands or fewer basic lands or fewer duals. The Hardest point IMHO is that they play fewer basic lands normally.
3-They either have an streamlined plan or 2 semisinergic (or non-sinergic at all) plans:  for instance Tyrant Oath use the Gush Package (minimal is 4x Gush + Fastbond, and sometimes Regrowth + Merchant Scroll + some storm win condition, sometimes cards like Flash of Insight and/or Memory' s Journey), Some other Oaths use Tezz/Vault package (1-2 Tezzeret, Vault + Key, Tinker), Demon oath has Vault+Key+Memory's Journey. Some other oath decks play cards to make the Creatrure draws not-so-dead, some use cards like Thirst for knowledge so they can filter, some use Scroll Rack, and most use Jace,TMS (while I think Jace is bonkers, I also think that plansewalkers has an strange place in Oath build, simply because there are games where you must use Orchards to keep playing and this may make their life quite difficult).
4-Oath's don't closes the game the same turn they resolve the Oath (only with Time walk or Vault/Key, but if you already have vault/key Oath is quite irrelevant), and most Oaths don't even close the turn they activate the Oath, however the game usually is very favorable once Oath has been resolved (specially in Griselbrand Oath or Demon Oath, to less extent).

These are somehow solved in the TPS-ish shell:

1-Less dead draws (the only card that needs another specific one to be effective is Show and Tell.
2-Stronger Mana base: being UB allows to play lots of basic lands.
3-The game plans are sineric: the straight storm plan is enchanted by the Show and tell plan, and the show and tell plan wins on its own and is also enhanced by the storm plan (drawing a bunch is always synergic with the Strom Mechanic).
4- Once we go off is to finish the game, with either plan the goal is to close as soon as we play it.

I also prefer it over the reanimator deck because it is faster, closes the game earlier, have more business and We don't need to play with the graveyard.

Nevertheless I know the TPS-ish build has some inherent flaws, I' m not saying is perfect:

-Oath has the quick mana+mox--> Oath plan which is huge against MUD or aggro-hate decks. TPS, on the other hand, may have more difficulties handling this (but I think the Griselbrand plan helps quite a bit with this).
-Not having access to Green or Red makes the sideboard not as strong as the Oath's sideboard may be, or any other deck with those colors. Not having access to Ingot Chewer, Nature's claim, Trygon Pedator, Ancient Grudge... hurst, basically UB doesn't have good Artifact/Enchantment removal.

I just posted for discussion, not saying is better than other Gris decks (just saying it' s not worse), but as far as I tested it's working nice. Hope you like and post some comments.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[vaughnbros]

How have your match ups been in any play testing that you've done?  I ask because a list like this seems like it desperately wants a true draw engine or at the very least filters, since your only way of winning seems to be getting a ton of mana or assembling a 2 card combo.  Your only way of getting a ton of mana save a mana flood seems to be from your 6 ritual effects, this is gonna make you pretty vulnerable to counterspells and sphere effects.  On top of that show and tell gets slammed pretty hard by shops, since they run both revoker and metamorph, and against mirror matches, since they have their own griselbrands and bargains.

I'd definitely suggest cutting your weakest 5 cards for 4 preordains and a thirst for knowledge.  I don't think you really need cabal rituals seeing as this deck doesn't really have a way to fill its graveyard very quickly, also 30 mana sources and 6 rituals is a lot.

[mmcgeach]

This deck needs baleful strix for the shop and dude matchups.

[Random Noob]

This deck needs baleful strix for the shop and dude matchups.

Yeah, Oath into Strix sounds fun.

EDIT//: Sorry for that, just switched to fast between the Griezelbrand threads..

[Commandant]

This deck needs baleful strix for the shop and dude matchups.

Yeah, Oath into Strix sounds fun.

Yeah, so does reading.

[Ego_Sum]

How have your match ups been in any play testing that you've done?  I ask because a list like this seems like it desperately wants a true draw engine or at the very least filters, since your only way of winning seems to be getting a ton of mana or assembling a 2 card combo.  Your only way of getting a ton of mana save a mana flood seems to be from your 6 ritual effects, this is gonna make you pretty vulnerable to counterspells and sphere effects.  On top of that show and tell gets slammed pretty hard by shops, since they run both revoker and metamorph, and against mirror matches, since they have their own griselbrands and bargains.

I'd definitely suggest cutting your weakest 5 cards for 4 preordains and a thirst for knowledge.  I don't think you really need cabal rituals seeing as this deck doesn't really have a way to fill its graveyard very quickly, also 30 mana sources and 6 rituals is a lot.

Well as far as I tested I had no consistency problems, at least not more than with a regular TPS build, in fact having higher threat density makes the deck top deck a lot better. Plus I really dunno what to take out for extra manipulation. However I also decided to keep the cantrips to the minimum just because the meta is filled with Missteps (and to lesser extent flusters) which make cantrip relying decks kinda crappy, IMHO.


@mmcgeach: Strix is cool, but it has some problems in an storm build. When your goal is to playa bunch of spells and kill your opponents you are not only worried about the MUD player hitting you and this is where Strix excels, nevertheless it can buy some time which is not horrible but is far better in a controlish build here you have more permanent solutions to the permanents they play; here we have to rely on Hurkyl's to bounce the mass and kill in the following turn or make a setup good enough so we can hurkyl again in the next 1 or 2 turns for the real kill. This is wy I can' t play strip. There is another subtle reason why strip is not good in storm, this is that it has the same exact casting cost as the card we need to resolve for the winning (which as I said is Hurkyl' s Recall) this means that Chalice @ 2 closes the game almost completely. HEnce I decided to play full set of Sabotages that has CC1, which at least is different than the Hurkul' s cost so I can bounce the chalice and play the bomb for the win. I know rebuild could also be an option (since it has a CC3) but it may be simply to cost to be able to play in on time.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[mmcgeach]

Inaki,

Yeah, you might be right about Strix.  I just feel like its so good to put an extra permanent down vs. shops and have something to block for jace against shops or fish, that I'm tempted to try a few in a list like this.  Strix is a great early draw cause that's when it cantrips for benefit, but on the other hand a poor late draw cause the two-color casting cost is pretty inconvenient if you're storming out.

Really with this build I'm most worried about blue control.  I think the 4 force and 3 thoughtseize aren't enough to sneak your bombs past their counterwalls.  People around here have tried using defense grid (actually in place of FOW) and xantid swarm in pure storm builds.  I wonder how you've done against blue control lists, and if any of these tactics have appealed to you?  My meta is like 50% blue counterspell-based decks...  landstill, drain tendrills, bob/jace control, gush, etc.

But thanks for posting a very cool deck ...

[Ego_Sum]

I fell flattered, thanks a lot.

Regarding to the deck. I have not all the time I' d want to test the decks this means I cannot be 100% (or 90-ish%) sure of what I' m saying but what I tested against blue control was that the bomb density was enough to go through the counter walls. Nevertheless Mental misstep is very annoying indeed, though having the Show and tell plan kind of solves that. However trying to solve some of this problems I' ve also started to test another list (I ' testing both when I have time) which is very similar but it relies on gush bond engine (this solves, in a way, the problem vaughnbros stated of the staticity of the deck for not playing cantrips, but also loses some early raw power. As I really dunno what to say whether is better or not I'll post the list here for those of you who want to test it and tell the results.

TTGS ("The Tropical Griselbrand Storm")

Main deck 60

The Mana (24)

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

4 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant catcombs

The Bussiness (20)

1 Fastbond

3 Show and Tell

3 Griselbrand
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

1 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Merchant Scroll

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall

The Protection (7)

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

The Utility (9)

4 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard 15

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nature's Claim
2 Trygon Predator
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Forest
1 Dismember
1 Massacre

I know this list is not ritual oriented, but as it is a pure combo deck I guess this is the correct section to post.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[mmcgeach]

My initial trial of the ritual list ("Show and Storm" ?) leads me to think its much more powerful than it looks on paper.  There were a lot of cases where the threat density and the amount of mana I could produce was such that I could afford to have a couple threats countered in one turn and still storm out at the end of that turn.  It feels *really* powerful.  I played the ritual list with these changes:

-1 swamp
-1 fetch
-1 cabal ritual

+1 library
+2 baleful strix

with +2 flusterstorm in the SB to side in for the strix.

I played one match against a pilot with Rich Shay's ritual-oath list, and I was sort of hard pressed to describe exactly what makes this list better than that one.  But I think its just removing the oaths for more show'n'tell and more fast mana, and removing the orchards for a more-sane mana base... and those changes make a big difference in the feel of the deck.  It doesn't feel like its going in two different places or has two different competing strategies.  It just feels like playing TPS with 4x Yawgmoths Bargain.  And that feels really powerful.

[Daenyth]

I'll vouch for the power. He crushed me with it last night through lots of early draw + 2x force + flusterstorm, and still killed me on turn 2 or 3.

[mmcgeach]

I've been playing this list for 3 or 4 weeks now, at some weekly and regional events.  I still like it, I've placed at 3 out or 4 events.  From the original TPS list I'd probably do this:

-1 fetch
-1 cabal rit
-1 griselbrand
-1 hurks
+1 library
+2 preordain
+1 chain of vapor

I tested baleful strix and thirst for knowledge also; they're options, but I think thirst is too much mana, and strix is a legitimate metagame call.

Thirst: 3 mana means you can't cast it the turn you go off, equivalently, it means if you cast it, you've shut yourself off from winning that turn.  If you don't have a bad mox to discard, it sort of amounts to cycling itself, with the addition of filling your yard.

Strix: really strong against fish and sort of marginally equivalent to preordain against other decks.  You can consider this in the preordain slot if you're going to face a lot of dudes that turn sideways.  This is just the perfect card against fish; it 1) slows them down, preventing them from attacking with their whole army and just swinging with whatever is most expendable, 2) blocks for jace, which is otherwise almost dead vs. fish, 3) preserves your life total, which you need to go off, and which otherwise would get precariously low, and 4) draws removal spells that would otherwise target your griselbrands.  These four points are sort of true against other archetypes, but the effects are less dramatic.  Vs. blue I probably want preordain, although trading with bob or snapcaster is sometimes relevant.  Vs. shops strix is pretty solid, but doesn't really advance your plan; you still need to find and resolve a hurks.  Strix is probably better than preordain vs. shops.

2 vs 3 Griselbrands: I think in most matchups you're better off with more digging and less Griselbrands.  Drawing multiple Griselbrands just sucks.

Show and Tell: this card is fantastically versatile.  There's a huge potential for bluffing.  It's basically must-counter for your opponent whether or not you have the business to go with it.  Using it to drop in necro or bargain leads to wins just as often as griselbrands.

Matchups:

Shops is the worst.  I wanted to side into 3 hurks 3 steel sabotage and 2 chain of vapor.  You still probably have to hurks twice, once to get some crap on the board and again to go off and win.  So maybe  you need 4 hurks.  Truthfully the only time I win against shops I have some serious early action, like turn 1 necro or similar.  Show and Tell doesn't work real well vs. them; Duplicant or Pithing Needle is pretty rough.  Strix isn't good enough to side in but if it's maindeck, good for you.

Fish: some fish builds can be pretty good with stuff like Stony Silence, Meddling Mage, and Thalia.  They'll have some removal for Griselbrand.  Frequently they only have 1 lock piece in play, so chain of vapor solves that.  I definitely want 1 chain of vapor main and another 1 sideboarded.  A lot of fish builds you can just run over, but be careful about going too low on life.  This deck isn't Menendian's TPS list; it's possible to draw 10 cards and lose with a bargain in play.  But with some thoughtful play you can prevent yourself from killing yourself.

Rital Oath: Show n' Storm is a turn faster than oath thanks to the increased amount of fast mana.  The light permission suite they have isn't enough to slow you down.  The oath deck is less consistent since it's two different decks tied together with griselbrand.  Sure, you can lose to turn 1 orchard and oath, but that's less likely than you winning on turn 2.

Blue: Some versions can be bad if they've got a ton of permission, especially if that includes some flusterstorms and mindbreak traps.  Otherwise just try to overwhelm their counters with your threats.  Library at Alexandria is like a free win if its in your opening 7. I feel like these matches come down to a mental duel where you try to decide how many counters they have and when it's clear to go off.


A general sideboard plan might be:

2 hurks
2 steel sabotage
1 island
1 chain of vapor
1 dismember
1 infest
2 flusterstorm
3 yixlid jailer
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt

but you might have to go up on the dredge or shop hate if you expect more of that.

Overall I really like it.  It's super fun to play and there's a lot of crazy explosions of powerful cards.  It remains interesting since the storm kills can be so convoluted.  And there's great potential for player vs. player trickery with the diverse set of threats and mana generation. 

Someone should pick this up and take it Gen Con...