What's scarier for a workshop player -- Welder or Heretic?

[boggyb]

Which would you rather not see in your opponent's sideboard?

Heretic is more mana intensive and more expensive to cast, but is more resilient and devastating.

Welder is cheaper, requires no mana to use, but doesn't hard lock you, necessarily. Or does it?

I don't have much experience piloting shops facing down an active welder. How easy is it to win through that? And are the higher costs of Heretic worth it?

I suppose the answer is, 'depends!' -- on what type of shops you're playing, and what your opponent is playing. But if anyone's got some good pointers on the pros and cons of each in different matchups and playing situations, I'd appreciate it.

[serracollector]

If you play with Revokers, neither is scary at all.

[BC]

It does depend on the situation, but in general I fear Heretics more.  You can play around Welder to some degree, and most people suck with Welders anyway.  A resolved Heretic is tough to deal with.  Luckily, it's much harder for them to land.

[Commandant]

Rebuild.

Goblin Welder is super slow and gets hit by Revoker and Dismember which they probably bring in against you game two depending on your color spread anyway.

Ditto for Heretic.

Not sure why people keep going the utility creature route against Workshops, they have clearly been prepared for at Trygon et al. for months now.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Heretic.  Welder gets locked out by Chalice at 1.

[Oath of Happy]

I'd have to say Welder

He's infinitely easier to resolve than a Heretic especially if your on the play when he comes down turn 1,  if a Heretic hits the board he can be shut down by Wasteland, and Welder can be used offensively to weld in your own stuff.

Heretic definitely has advantages like not getting hit by chalice or misstep, not needing an artifact in their graveyard, destroying their stuff rather than exchanging it, and also dealing them damage, however I think the 3 mana CC and the need to pay Red every turn makes him way too difficult to use.

[Samoht]

The answer is Ancient Grudge and Ingot Chewer, not Rebuild, Viashino Heretic, or Goblin Welder.  Of the two asked, it is situational. In a vacuum the answer is Welder, but depending on builds and hands Heretic has its place as well.

[vaughnbros]

How is this not Viashino Heretic?  If you have a basic mountain out and Heretic on the table the opposing shops player NEEDS to kill him.  There is really no question he is one of the best cards against shops ever printed.

Welder needs to combo with other cards to have any effect at all otherwise if your opponent sees you drop a 1st turn welder they can pretty easily play around him as long.  Welder is a much more of a main deck card for decks though.

Obviously Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge are generally better sideboard hate cards as they are more difficult to answer than welder and heretic, however they won't give you more than a 2 for 1 whereas welder and heretic can literally dominate an entire game.

[Samoht]

How is this not Viashino Heretic?  If you have a basic mountain out and Heretic on the table the opposing shops player NEEDS to kill him.  There is really no question he is one of the best cards against shops ever printed.

Welder needs to combo with other cards to have any effect at all otherwise if your opponent sees you drop a 1st turn welder they can pretty easily play around him as long.  Welder is a much more of a main deck card for decks though.

Obviously Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge are generally better sideboard hate cards as they are more difficult to answer than welder and heretic, however they won't give you more than a 2 for 1 whereas welder and heretic can literally dominate an entire game.

First problem: Constant Red source/Basic Mountain requisite. Who wants to play Mountains?
Second Problem: Costs 3 mana, good luck getting through Lodestone/Sphere of Resistance
Third Problem: Revoker/Needle.
Fourth Problem: Susceptible to Dismember.

Again, card is better than a lot of others, but you can't realistically expect to get to cast him, especially on the draw.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Heretic is probobly the best in play. But getting him into play is easier said then done.

[A.-1.]

Rebuild.

Goblin Welder is super slow and gets hit by Revoker and Dismember which they probably bring in against you game two depending on your color spread anyway.

Ditto for Heretic.

Not sure why people keep going the utility creature route against Workshops, they have clearly been prepared for at Trygon et al. for months now.

Agreed. I fear cards like Hurkyl's, Rebuild, and Energy Flux more.

[vaughnbros]

How is this not Viashino Heretic?  If you have a basic mountain out and Heretic on the table the opposing shops player NEEDS to kill him.  There is really no question he is one of the best cards against shops ever printed.

Welder needs to combo with other cards to have any effect at all otherwise if your opponent sees you drop a 1st turn welder they can pretty easily play around him as long.  Welder is a much more of a main deck card for decks though.

Obviously Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge are generally better sideboard hate cards as they are more difficult to answer than welder and heretic, however they won't give you more than a 2 for 1 whereas welder and heretic can literally dominate an entire game.

First problem: Constant Red source/Basic Mountain requisite. Who wants to play Mountains?
Second Problem: Costs 3 mana, good luck getting through Lodestone/Sphere of Resistance
Third Problem: Revoker/Needle.
Fourth Problem: Susceptible to Dismember.

Again, card is better than a lot of others, but you can't realistically expect to get to cast him, especially on the draw.

Yes there are problems with him which is why its not the auto play card, but your problems with him are not really that valid.

First problem: needing access to red, while this is probably your best argument, I still don't really see this as making heretic unplayable this is a card to play in a red deck and if you don't have access to red you won't have access to any of your hate or other cards in red any way.

Second problem: Trygon Predator and Energy Flux are both heavily played hate cards for shops I suppose they can't be realistically cast on the draw for being 3 mana as well?  Its a proactive card unlike Grudge and Chewer which are response based.  The 3 mana also allows it to evade the blind play of chalice of the void at 1.

Third/Fourth problem: The original question was welder or heretic they are both susceptible to removal, revokers, and needles

As far as a silver bullet against shops goes, Heretic is the card.  I can't tell you how many games I've won on his back.  Turn 1 or 2 heretic is absolutely brutal against shops, which is not impossible to do even on the draw with power.  It's not the card if your goal is just to use it to blow up a few of their cards, its a card used to dominate the game.  To relate this to the original post welder needs to be combined with grafdigger's cage or gorilla shaman to dominate in a similar fashion as heretic does.

[psyburat]

Not sure why people keep going the utility creature route against Workshops, they have clearly been prepared for at Trygon et al. for months now.

Trygon Predator does get much better when it receives exalted to swing through a metamorph, but agreed, it fairs poorly against Steel Hellkite and Duplicant.

I've found Serenity to be quite effective, especially since I get a free turn when they don't want to commit anything else to the board.  The biggest problem, beyond the times you don't want the turn delay, is that it costs 2 mana, which is a very popular Chalice of the Void setting against Noble Fish.

I prefer Viashino Heretic over Goblin Welder if only as a way of killing Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus decks as well, since you can still damage your opponent for 12 even though their robot is indestructible.

[Commandant]

Agreed. I fear cards like Hurkyl's, Rebuild, and Energy Flux more.

Thank you. Its worth noting that the type of hate one chooses to use should be very much dependent on the type of list/kill condition you run. In my experience an EOT Rebuild often means end game for the Workshop pilot/the blue player is about to pull so far ahead it might as well be over. I never understood fighting Workshops tit for tat and after years of trying settled on running Rebuild/Hurkyl's in conjunction with 1-2 removal spells and it's done very well for me. Also I may be a minority but I've always found Ancient Grudge to be the most overrated card in the match up; at the end of the day a 4C mana base is not what you want to be playing in a Wasteland meta.

Trygon Predator does get much better when it receives exalted to swing through a metamorph, but agreed, it fairs poorly against Steel Hellkite and Duplicant.

If you have Exalted triggers and Wasteland for Maze of Ith, I'd agree with you. Still bites it to Dismember and while I'm no Workshop expert I'm pretty sure it is a card all of them should be running somewhere in the 75.

[psyburat]

Trygon Predator does get much better when it receives exalted to swing through a metamorph, but agreed, it fairs poorly against Steel Hellkite and Duplicant.

If you have Exalted triggers and Wasteland for Maze of Ith, I'd agree with you.

Where did the Maze of Ith suddenly come from in this argument?  But yes, as a deck that runs 4 Trygon Predators, 4 Qasali Pridemage, 4 Noble Hierarch, 4 Wasteland and a Strip Mine after sideboarding, I am confident that I will be able to combat the 0 instances of Maze of Ith that have appeared in the Workshop decklists that have been successful in the New York/New Jersey/Pennsylvania area.

[Samoht]

How is this not Viashino Heretic?  If you have a basic mountain out and Heretic on the table the opposing shops player NEEDS to kill him.  There is really no question he is one of the best cards against shops ever printed.

Welder needs to combo with other cards to have any effect at all otherwise if your opponent sees you drop a 1st turn welder they can pretty easily play around him as long.  Welder is a much more of a main deck card for decks though.

Obviously Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge are generally better sideboard hate cards as they are more difficult to answer than welder and heretic, however they won't give you more than a 2 for 1 whereas welder and heretic can literally dominate an entire game.

First problem: Constant Red source/Basic Mountain requisite. Who wants to play Mountains?
Second Problem: Costs 3 mana, good luck getting through Lodestone/Sphere of Resistance
Third Problem: Revoker/Needle.
Fourth Problem: Susceptible to Dismember.

Again, card is better than a lot of others, but you can't realistically expect to get to cast him, especially on the draw.

Yes there are problems with him which is why its not the auto play card, but your problems with him are not really that valid.

First problem: needing access to red, while this is probably your best argument, I still don't really see this as making heretic unplayable this is a card to play in a red deck and if you don't have access to red you won't have access to any of your hate or other cards in red any way.

Second problem: Trygon Predator and Energy Flux are both heavily played hate cards for shops I suppose they can't be realistically cast on the draw for being 3 mana as well?  Its a proactive card unlike Grudge and Chewer which are response based.  The 3 mana also allows it to evade the blind play of chalice of the void at 1.

Third/Fourth problem: The original question was welder or heretic they are both susceptible to removal, revokers, and needles

As far as a silver bullet against shops goes, Heretic is the card.  I can't tell you how many games I've won on his back.  Turn 1 or 2 heretic is absolutely brutal against shops, which is not impossible to do even on the draw with power.  It's not the card if your goal is just to use it to blow up a few of their cards, its a card used to dominate the game.  To relate this to the original post welder needs to be combined with grafdigger's cage or gorilla shaman to dominate in a similar fashion as heretic does.

Having constant access to red and access to red once are two different things. If you have to expose a Volc to land Heretic, and then it gets Wasted, then you really haven't done anything relevant. If you stick Welder, or cast Grudge/Chewer, you've done what you wanted and don't have to worry.

Resolving Trygon or Flux is quite difficult on the draw, I'm not sure who/what you're playing against that proves this to be otherwise. Cards that aren't instants are very hard to get in through Wire. That said, resolving either is much more back breaking than Heretic, barring a Steel Heelkite siting. Coupled with the fact that neither resolves further investment to advance your position, they are as fast, if not faster, than a Heretic.

Right, and my response to the original question was neither because they are playing sufficient answers for both of them. Ancient Grudge, Ingot Chewer, and Trygon Predator will do in more Shops players than Welders and Heretics.

Once Heretic is in and active he's the best creature almost always (save removal, as Chewer still triggers). Again, getting him to stick is much more difficult. Landing spells like Grudge is significantly easier. Ancient Grudge is absurdly good, and is by far the best card against them. 4 color mana bases aren't a problem, and really Black isn't as necessary as it used to be. Vamp DT and Will are really the only cards you want if you're on U based control, so URg has become quite popular. The mana works quite fine, and still no one is really on Heretic, even in decks with Drains. I wonder why that is?


As far as the Bounce vs Fight plan, I am not a fan of trying to stick in a Hurkyl's. It could just be that there is just so many times that I am under Wire and Spheres that I don't ever get the value that I want from the bounce, as they get to build their board back fairly quickly. So many times I have to cast the spell in my upkeep or their combat step, not at their EoT. 11 Spheres, 4 Wires, 4 Metamorph make actually landing the EOT bounce plan almost impossible in NY/NJ.

[vaughnbros]

Once Heretic is in and active he's the best creature almost always (save removal, as Chewer still triggers). Again, getting him to stick is much more difficult. Landing spells like Grudge is significantly easier. Ancient Grudge is absurdly good, and is by far the best card against them. 4 color mana bases aren't a problem, and really Black isn't as necessary as it used to be. Vamp DT and Will are really the only cards you want if you're on U based control, so URg has become quite popular. The mana works quite fine, and still no one is really on Heretic, even in decks with Drains. I wonder why that is?


As far as the Bounce vs Fight plan, I am not a fan of trying to stick in a Hurkyl's. It could just be that there is just so many times that I am under Wire and Spheres that I don't ever get the value that I want from the bounce, as they get to build their board back fairly quickly. So many times I have to cast the spell in my upkeep or their combat step, not at their EoT. 11 Spheres, 4 Wires, 4 Metamorph make actually landing the EOT bounce plan almost impossible in NY/NJ.

I agree grudge is better if you have a 3 or 4 color mana base, but thats the issue.  I don't think grudge is worth splashing a 3rd and/or 4th color just to play it.  It just doesnt seem worth it to me.  You say a 4 color mana base isn't a problem, but I wouldn't really agree I have rarely ever played a deck where I feel like what the 4th color I'm adding is worth the increased nonbasics and instability in my mana base.  Heretic is a card really only for a deck with 2 colors so that's why you don't see many people on him because there aren't many decks that have red as one of its two primary colors.

The bounce vs. fight plan comes down to one question for me.  Are you trying to storm out? If the answer is no then it should be fight.  If the answer is yes then the answer should be bounce.  This being said I would be running at least 1 removal and at least 1 bounce spell post board.

[serracollector]

I prefer Viashino Heretic over Goblin Welder if only as a way of killing Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus decks as well, since you can still damage your opponent for 12 even though their robot is indestructible.

I would much prefer using welder to turn that Blight back into that mox than doing 12 damage and HOPING they are dead after, because if they are not, then you probably are.

Is there not room in (insert deck name here) for 1 welder, 1 mox monkey, and 1 heretic?  I mean I seen keeper decks running this suite maindeck before.
I honestly think the question is mute, as in,  if your expecting a MUD meta, AND your playing red, AND you have room, why not just run both (or all 3 in the case of mox monkey) in your 75?  Neither one is necessarily better than the others, it just depends on what has happened in the game.  I have held MUD down with a single Welder many a time, and I have descimated MUD with a Viashino.  Either way I won.  Can't really say 1 was "better".

[Worldslayer]

I prefer Viashino Heretic over Goblin Welder if only as a way of killing Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus decks as well, since you can still damage your opponent for 12 even though their robot is indestructible.

I would much prefer using welder to turn that Blight back into that mox than doing 12 damage and HOPING they are dead after, because if they are not, then you probably are.

I think the idea is Tinker -> bot, EOT heretic the colossus deal 12, untap heretic the colossus deal 12.

If the creature resolves and is active before they tinker, heretic is better there. If the creature resolves but is NOT active and they are above 12 Welder is better. If neither has resolved yet by the time they tinker i'm not sure it matters.


Shaman/welder/heretic is a combination better together than piecemeal. However if you want a weapon and can generate the mana Heretic is probably the best on its own, as Welder really wants another way to bin artifacts.

[boggyb]

Shaman/welder/heretic is a combination better together than piecemeal. However if you want a weapon and can generate the mana Heretic is probably the best on its own, as Welder really wants another way to bin artifacts.

Yes-- if you can generate the mana. If. But that's hard against a deck half-full of cards that deny you mana. The question is, how reliably can one ramp up to 3 mana against a shop player, and then consistently have 1R available to make it worth it? And if you find yourself in that situation, would another card be just as good, but also more broadly useful against other decks and/or more easily castable, so that you wouldn't have to use such a narrow and expensive card as Heretic?

Put it another way, getting a 3 mana creature to resolve through spheres is hard, and since the creature isn't helping you to do that before you actually do, then you must've gotten there through other means. If you're in such a relatively comfortable position (and confident in your deck's ability to get there consistently, so that you'd run Heretic), is it really all that meaningful that you're able to drop a devastating bomb like Heretic? Do you need a bomb in that situation? Maybe instead you could squeak by on another card that would also be useful in other matchups (so you could make your board more efficient by running that card instead), or run, say, Welder, which is more reliably castable. I honestly don't know the answer -- it depends on your deck, of course, and theirs; and I'm wondering what those dependencies are.

What needs to be in your deck to make you want to use Heretic over Welder, or Grudge, Chewer, or any of the rest for that matter -- what do they play best with? And what do they play worst against? A huge topic for sure and kind of 'intuited' by most people, but it'd be very useful to get down analysis we've independently brewed up. The thread's subject is specifically Welder and Heretic, but there's also:

Ingot Chewer
Ancient Grudge
Nature's Claim
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall
Rebuild
Steel Sabotage
Trygon Predator

as major contenders, which can be broken down into groups, some overlapping the others, and so on.

[Commandant]

Where did the Maze of Ith suddenly come from in this argument?  But yes, as a deck that runs 4 Trygon Predators, 4 Qasali Pridemage, 4 Noble Hierarch, 4 Wasteland and a Strip Mine after sideboarding, I am confident that I will be able to combat the 0 instances of Maze of Ith that have appeared in the Workshop decklists that have been successful in the New York/New Jersey/Pennsylvania area.

Facetious comments are not necessary.

I've seen Maze of Ith in plenty of Workshop sideboards in various areas. I believe the Espresso builds favor it more than Martello.

Here's a few that placed:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1604 3rd.
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1576 5th and 8th.
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1570 2nd.
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1550 1st.

[psyburat]

Facetious comments are not necessary.

Neither are your blatant attacks.  Your list of cited sources fails to retort against the fact that, yes, the deck I pilot is aware of and has answers to Maze of Ith.

[Prospero]

Please, everyone, let's keep this civil.

[Commandant]

Not sure why people keep going the utility creature route against Workshops, they have clearly been prepared for at Trygon et al. for months now.

Trygon Predator does get much better when it receives exalted to swing through a metamorph, but agreed, it fairs poorly against Steel Hellkite and Duplicant.

If you have Exalted triggers and Wasteland for Maze of Ith, I'd agree with you. Still bites it to Dismember and while I'm no Workshop expert I'm pretty sure it is a card all of them should be running somewhere in the 75.

Where did the Maze of Ith suddenly come from in this argument? But yes, as a deck that runs 4 Trygon Predators, 4 Qasali Pridemage, 4 Noble Hierarch, 4 Wasteland and a Strip Mine after sideboarding, I am confident that I will be able to combat the 0 instances of Maze of Ith that have appeared in the Workshop decklists that have been successful in the New York/New Jersey/Pennsylvania area.

Facetious comments are not necessary.

I've seen Maze of Ith in plenty of Workshop sideboards in various areas. I believe the Espresso builds favor it more than Martello.

Here's a few that placed:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1604 3rd.
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1576 5th and 8th.
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1570 2nd.
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1550 1st.

Facetious comments are not necessary.

Neither are your blatant attacks.  Your list of cited sources fails to retort against the fact that, yes, the deck I pilot is aware of and has answers to Maze of Ith.

Huh?

[psyburat]

Huh?

In the end, you brought to light that yes, there are Maze of Iths in my metagame, but my "facetious" statement still showcased that I have the prerequisite cards that you yourself cited as necessary for battling the double threat of Maze of Ith and Phyrexian Metamorph.  It is important to note that your "if you have exalted triggers and wasteland for Maze of Ith, I'd agree with you" statement implies both Phyrexian Metamorph and Maze of Ith, since I don't need Wasteland to combat the first nor could exalted triggers combat the second (and in fact, an active Maze of Ith often coincides with attacking with multiple creatures).  Your tactical bolding of our previous conversation doesn't highlight my inability to parse it, but instead yours.

[Commandant]

Huh?

In the end, you brought to light that yes, there are Maze of Iths in my metagame, but my "facetious" statement still showcased that I have the prerequisite cards that you yourself cited as necessary for battling the double threat of Maze of Ith and Phyrexian Metamorph.  It is important to note that your "if you have exalted triggers and wasteland for Maze of Ith, I'd agree with you" statement implies both Phyrexian Metamorph and Maze of Ith, since I don't need Wasteland to combat the first nor could exalted triggers combat the second (and in fact, an active Maze of Ith often coincides with attacking with multiple creatures).  Your tactical bolding of our previous conversation doesn't highlight my inability to parse it, but instead yours.

Again, pretty sure I got it:

Trygon Predator does get much better when it receives exalted to swing through a metamorph, but agreed, it fairs poorly against Steel Hellkite and Duplicant.

If you have Exalted triggers and Wasteland for Maze of Ith, I'd agree with you. Still bites it to Dismember and while I'm no Workshop expert I'm pretty sure it is a card all of them should be running somewhere in the 75.

The intention of my original post was to point out that with Exalted Triggers and Wasteland, Fish (what you herald) is far better suited to use Trygon Predator then preexisting blue shells. It's pretty apparent from the get go that I was agreeing with you but you seem overly defensive and downright rude so I guess I'll just move on.

[jyuj]

I think Welder is a lot more scarier for the workshop player, but that is just my two cents <3

[yespuhyren]

As someone whose basically played nothing but shops for the last 8 years, here is my opinion:

VS HIGH CALIBER WELDER USING OPPONENT

In this situation, Goblin welder is often the much bigger threat, as they will know the nuances of when to use welder and when not to, as well as targets and timing.  There are VERY few players at most tournaments that I would consider high caliber.  Generally the players who I consider here have extensive knowledge playing it in either Stax, Slaver, or something similar.

VS AVERAGE OPPONENT

In this situation, I’d much rather see Welder than Heretic.  The reason being that most players will be caught on inexperience and can easily be beaten when they don’t know how to use welder properly.  Heretic is an issue because it literally sits there, firing from the hip off basic mana, and is in itself a win condition.  Welder stops you, but they can only weld out so many precursor golems and wurmcoil engines before the advantage becomes too overwhelming

WITH GORILLA SHAMAN OR Karn

Obviously when Shaman or Karn come into the equation, welder becomes an absolutely dominant force