growing vintage

[TheWhiteDragon]

First off, I want to applaud the efforts at those taking stabs at growing the format.  Any attempt is better than nothing.

That said, I see a problem with current approaches.  As is, the approach seems to be to lower barriers to entry or to make big prize supported tourneys (both worthy endeavors).  But these big tourneys are in places where Vintage is at a peak.  If you want to make soccer more popular where it is not, do you host a big tourney in Brazil???  No, there is already a following there.  That also won't draw people from places that don't play, because they are not as invested in the format.  You have to have tourneys where there is no scene.  Some say that the impetus is on people in those areas to start their own scene.  Would the NFL expect football to become popular in England by letting England set up their own club?  No, you have to take the game to where you want it to grow.

So what am I suggesting?  I suggest that people who want Vintage to grow should host large tourneys in areas where the scene is small.  Many people from the NE area will travel to it since they are invested in the format if the prize support is good enough, and the non-invested people would be more likely to give it a shot and then grow the scene to prepare for the next event or host their own.  You may lose some regulars (who will keep attending local stuff anyway) by attempting to spark a fire in an area where there is no scene, but this will create new scenes which is good for the format as a whole.  If you only focus on where the scene is good, then you don't grow, you just maintain. 

My 2 cents.

Thoughts?

[AmbivalentDuck]

We all know the future of Vintage is online due to the declining number of enthusiasts, the growing relevance of taking time off, and the increasing number of time commitments (pets/children/spouses) said enthusiasts have.

Someone needs to organize and guarantee an online P9 tourney, complete with judges.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

We all know the future of Vintage is online due to the declining number of enthusiasts, the growing relevance of taking time off, and the increasing number of time commitments (pets/children/spouses) said enthusiasts have.

Someone needs to organize and guarantee an online P9 tourney, complete with judges.

If the future of vintage is online that's when I stop playing. I go out to events to get away from the real worlds (my wife, my house, my 2 jobs, my pets). Going out to vintage events is great to hang out with other guys that enjoy the game. As we all age and retire, the younger crowds will take over, it's a big circle if u ask me. I consider myself an enthusiast and I started out from the bottom of vintage just getting into it bc I knew guys like Shawn Anthony, Allen Fulmer, and Dave Reitnauer. So that being said as the older enthusiasts fade, new younger blood players will take over that roll.

As far as th initial topic goes, I think that's a cool idea to bring vintage to places it's less popular, but that doesn't happen over night. A card store in this random location would have to open. Possible the owner is a long time vintage lover and gets the locals involved in the format and holds small events.

I hope this makes sense and is helpful...If not, sorry!

[mikekilljoy]

We all know the future of Vintage is online due to the declining number of enthusiasts, the growing relevance of taking time off, and the increasing number of time commitments (pets/children/spouses) said enthusiasts have.

Someone needs to organize and guarantee an online P9 tourney, complete with judges.

If the future of vintage is online that's when I stop playing. I go out to events to get away from the real worlds (my wife, my house, my 2 jobs, my pets). Going out to vintage events is great to hang out with other guys that enjoy the game. As we all age and retire, the younger crowds will take over, it's a big circle if u ask me. I consider myself an enthusiast and I started out from the bottom of vintage just getting into it bc I knew guys like Shawn Anthony, Allen Fulmer, and Dave Reitnauer. So that being said as the older enthusiasts fade, new younger blood players will take over that roll.

As far as th initial topic goes, I think that's a cool idea to bring vintage to places it's less popular, but that doesn't happen over night. A card store in this random location would have to open. Possible the owner is a long time vintage lover and gets the locals involved in the format and holds small events.

I hope this makes sense and is helpful...If not, sorry!

It does and I fully second that thought.

[quicksilvervii]

We all know the future of Vintage is online due to the declining number of enthusiasts, the growing relevance of taking time off, and the increasing number of time commitments (pets/children/spouses) said enthusiasts have.

Someone needs to organize and guarantee an online P9 tourney, complete with judges.

I could not disagree more.  I HATE playing online.  The reason I go is to see people I know and like to hang out with, and I actually enjoy traveling.  Meeting new people is awesome, and the majority of the people I meet at the events are stand up dudes (and dudettes, though the numbers are quite skewed).  I like seeing new places, eating different food, and the memories that come with it.  Any memory of travel beats the ones of me at my computer in sweatpants eating nachos.

Even after moving halfway across the country, it gave me a jumping off point to meet new friends I otherwise never would have.

The second the format goes all digital, I'm selling off my cardboard stock and quitting for good.

[psyburat]

One of the many reasons I keep my strict 78 card, 1 archetype collection is because that's all I need to be able to participate in tournaments and enjoy the community that they have created.  If the community dissolves than my participation in the game does as well.

[aforce808]

I agree with some of the previouse posts.  There's a huge difference for me, and most of the people I play with.  I refuse to play primarily online and will probably get out of the game if that's the direction it takes.  I want to interact with my opponent and meet people.  I would also much rather hold an awesome card in my hand and put it out on the table than click a button. 

I currently live in Anchorage where there is a healthy standard/limited scene, but virtually no vintage scene (no one owns the cards).  My local store hosted a proxy tournament a couple of months ago, and it was somewhat successful, but they don't want to host another.  I suggested larger buy-ins and larger prizes, but the store owner is very resistant.  I play in the store with the one other guy who owns power, and people gather to watch and ogle the cards, but most of them can't afford such items.  If anyone has other suggestions for building a vintage scene under these circumstances, I'm all ears!

Doug

[LotusHead]

We are doing "Vintage for Cash" with 10% going to the store, 15 proxies.  If you make your proxies nice enough, people won't mind as much.  I'm pretty sure that most MTG communities have lots of EDH players, so they probably like playing with old cards (like SOL RING!).

Proxy up decks, force people to play with them, and try holding a tourney.  We had 8 for our first one, and we were pretty happy!

Ok, we were bummed that only 8 people showed up, but we had our 3 rounds of swiss and cut to top 4! Whoot!

Our next tourney is in 2.5 weeks, I'll let you know how that turns out.

[aforce808]

Sorry for the double post, but I have one more thing to say.  I wanted to try MODO without spending a bunch of money on virtual cards, so I built a pauper deck on there and quickly found out that formats that aren't played in real life aren't played much online either.  Pauper tournaments usually never actually happen due to a lack of participants.  If Vintage isn't popular irl, it probably won't succeed online either.

Doug

[voltron00x]

The future of Vintage isn't necessarily online, but an online presence may help secure a future for paper Vintage if those events use actual "cards" on MTGO.  I think that's the best of both worlds.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Getting drunk by myself and playing magic on my computer just doesnt have the same ring as doing so at a tournament...

[Samite Healer]

I've never understood why people have been so concerned with growing the Vintage format.  I'm just not sure what the endgame would be for such growth, as we've already established that there won't be any Vintage Grand Prix or higher level events, and private enterprises such as SCG have shifted their focus to other formats. 

I enjoy that the format is relatively small and the community is tight-knit (or at least it was).  I'd like to think that most of the people who enjoy playing the Vintage format really love the people they play with, just as much or if not more than the actual format itself.  If the objective is to popularize the format so that every small town has a local Vintage scene, then efforts are better made at the local level instead of through the hosting of gigantic tournaments.  It's incredibly hard to achieve this because of the obvious barriers to entry and the emotional attachments associated with Vintage that newer players are lacking.  It's much easier to get people to play and invest in Legacy or Standard because of the large cash prizes and Pro Tour glory; it's a lot harder to recreate the "experience" of Vintage in so many local scenes.  And let's face it; that's the compelling reason to play Vintage since there is no fame and fortune at stake. In order to recreate that feeling, experienced Vintage players like Nick Detwiler have had to slowly "show" newer players how awesome the format can be by hosting a ton of small events, a lot of hand holding, many proxies, and the loan of cards. 

Unfortunately, all that takes a tremendous amount of time and the cost (effort & money) has traditionally outweighed the benefits of getting more players on board.  If you want to get more people playing Vintage, make it a genuinely profitable venture for future TOs.  They will invest the time, money, and energy into setting up events so long as the same people that want to grow the community also stop complaining about prize support or entrance fees.   Proxies are a significant drawback in this department, which leads to their controversial nature.

I also echo the sentiments of those who do not wish to play online, or simply prefer face-to-face interaction.  That also emphasizes my point that playing Vintage is about the experience.

[aforce808]

@Samite Healer: I'm wondering what you mean by your comment on entry fees and prize support.  Do you feel that higher entry fees/bigger prizes will attract new players or discourage them?  I've always thought that a lot of people like the "gamble" of playing for bigger prizes, but maybe I'm wrong.  What is your opinion?

Doug

[LotusHead]

I enjoy that the format is relatively small and the community is tight-knit (or at least it was).  I'd like to think that most of the people who enjoy playing the Vintage format really love the people they play with, just as much or if not more than the actual format itself. 

Honestly? I love Sol Ring, Tinker, Oath of Druids, Black Lotus, Mana Drain, and Mishra's Workshop. There is only one format really where I can play those cards.

Also, It is a thrill to play against a competend vintage opponent. They want to do the most bustedness things, and I want to stop them from doing that (or do my own uberbustedness plays).

I actually really enjoy Legacy (since I have an awesome Tezzfinity deck) but SOL RING is the epitomy of MAGIC.

I fight for Sol Ring.

[Samite Healer]

Honestly? I love Sol Ring, Tinker, Oath of Druids, Black Lotus, Mana Drain, and Mishra's Workshop. There is only one format really where I can play those cards.

Also, It is a thrill to play against a competend vintage opponent. They want to do the most bustedness things, and I want to stop them from doing that (or do my own uberbustedness plays).

I actually really enjoy Legacy (since I have an awesome Tezzfinity deck) but SOL RING is the epitomy of MAGIC.

Totally agree here.  I was just trying to convey that I love the people I play Vintage with, in addition to loving the format itself.  And yes, Sol Ring represents the epitome of Magic to me as well, and I'd take it over a single Mox any day.

@aforce808:  Perhaps I'm dating myself a bit, but over the years there has been a constant trend of people complaining about TO's not giving back 100% of the prize support, or close to that amount for any given Vintage event.  This has occurred in our community more than in any other format.  I rarely hear the same proportion of comments about how $15,000 in entrance fees were collected for a $5K event, or any of these Legacy $1K events, etc.  I think people in those formats don't even think about what the TO is necessarily raking in, or their cost structure to the event, but for some reason in our small community many people do - and it hurts us.

I'm not sure if running a large BoM tournament will help us any more than some local stores running a bunch of $5 tournaments on a Sunday will, if the goal is to increase overall number of players.  If anything, I think the latter makes more of an impact in general but the existence of a large "destination" tournament with a prize other than a painting helps those newer players to aspire to compete.  So, it seems both serve their purposes.  I do think that the people that will travel across the country to participate in the large event are already dedicated to our format.

Specifically about the "gamble" of playing for bigger prizes: I'm again uncertain as to the accuracy of people preferring larger prizes, vs. smaller prizes and less entry fee.  I think the prize has to be at least somewhat substantial ($300+ card for first), but I don't know if people would rather play for a set of p9 and shell out $50-$70 plus travel.  The biggest issue here is again proxy cards.  Many people don't even care about owning the real cards, so it devalues the prize.  I can't tell you how many times I've been in events where the t4 just split and sold back to the dealer.  Nobody wanted the prizes, including winners who didn't have a complete set.  Also, while every experienced Vintage player knows our format doesn't end on the first or second turn, there are matches that are complete blowouts.  It happens.  I'm sure at least some portion of potential tournament attendees is turned off by the possibility of dropping $50 on an entrance fee and then losing the die roll to shops or mox, orchard, oath.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Yes, it's all well and good that a handful of people really enjoy shuffling $10k decks, even at the kitchen table.  The price of power creeps up every time on of you "retires" without selling off his cardboard investment.  I remember buying my dual lands for less than $10 each and thinking I'd overpaid at $48 for a playset of gem mint Trops.  Well, those days are gone.  My first power-proxied Oath deck cost ~$150, most of that being the duals and Oaths since FoW was still $1 back then.

For the next generation, there's no nostalgia, no Lotus they picked up for $300 before the price spiked, and few recruiters for a format played in only a handful of shops across America.  Instead, there's a many-thousand dollar investment to try a format whose variance is only increasing over time, reducing a sad number of games to simple coin flips that are stretched out over 10-15 minutes.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Yes, it's all well and good that a handful of people really enjoy shuffling $10k decks, even at the kitchen table.  The price of power creeps up every time on of you "retires" without selling off his cardboard investment.  I remember buying my dual lands for less than $10 each and thinking I'd overpaid at $48 for a playset of gem mint Trops.  Well, those days are gone.  My first power-proxied Oath deck cost ~$150, most of that being the duals and Oaths since FoW was still $1 back then.

For the next generation, there's no nostalgia, no Lotus they picked up for $300 before the price spiked, and few recruiters for a format played in only a handful of shops across America.  Instead, there's a many-thousand dollar investment to try a format whose variance is only increasing over time, reducing a sad number of games to simple coin flips that are stretched out over 10-15 minutes.

I think it’s really obnoxious to hear people say that PLAYERS’ power is an investment. I doubt the majority of them were like "hmm yes, quite, my return on this will fetch me a hefty profit margin. Ha chacha cha cha *twirls mustache*”. And if they were, they're really doing investments wrong. Most people are more in the "man, I'm going to be able to build one of the most busted piles in MTG and have tons of fun with it" camp.

I also really hate the "coin flip argument". To me, it just seems like something people say when they realize the format prices are too high for them and they're bitter about it (something completely valid to be bitter about). Or, when they've had some bad luck at some events and don’t quite understand the meta as easily as previous ones. What it comes down to is that more skilled players and better prepared players tend to do better, because they make the right decisions. That doesn't happen with coin flips. If you’re all butt hurt about it, go and cry in private and don’t discourage others from having a good time with the format.

^that last comment wasn’t necessarily directed at duck, but people sitting around at lgs’s talking smack about the format, which is something I’m pretty sure he doesn’t do.

The reason people don't play the format is because of the price of entry. The people who play the format got into it early on, or lucked into some power somehow. Maybe won a mox or two paying legacy, and were like "hey, it would be cool to play this a couple times before I turn it around! I hear I can just play RUG delver there too!" and got hooked.
The price of maintaining a vintage deck isn’t much compared to the other formats. You have to buy the same ridiculous chase rare/mythic all the other formats do occasionally if it’s obviously busted, which is less often they the other formats do, and you already of the rest of the deck most of the time. Or occasionally, something completely cheap like preordains, slash panthers, or memory’s journey. 

If you want to grow the format you need to get more power at lower prices, which is near impossible given the reprint policy. The only thing I can think of is running more proxy mox events at shops with higher entry and advertising it a ton. Then offering really crap prices when people try and sell the mox back, forcing them to try and sell it on their own and/or hold on to it for a bit. That new mox in your binder is going to look pretty tempting next month for the same event. Obviously that whole scenario is broken by ebay and other dealers offering prices that are less crap… and a certain someone who may be hoarding things like lotuses to drive up prices.

This may sound like a personally stupid decision on my end, but if I won enough extra vintage stables, I’ve got casual player friends who would play in events if they could make 10 proxies (almost there), just to make the format more accessible to people. Thinking back, that’s exactly how I got into vintage. I was a curious casual player who got some periodic loans and a good deal from the bahr0000000000000dstar, who barely knew me at the time. He definitely enabled making me, and a friend of mine, life long vintage players.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I also really hate the "coin flip argument". To me, it just seems like something people say when they realize the format prices are too high for them and they're bitter about it (something completely valid to be bitter about). Or, when they've had some bad luck at some events and don’t quite understand the meta as easily as previous ones. What it comes down to is that more skilled players and better prepared players tend to do better, because they make the right decisions. That doesn't happen with coin flips. If you’re all butt hurt about it, go and cry in private and don’t discourage others from having a good time with the format.

I want to be clear that I'm only saying that some games are coinflips, and the percentage of games that are coinflips is increasing via power creep. The result is that it's more likely that someone new to the format's first Vintage game will be a blowout in one direction or the other.  I'm not saying the skill has no part.  I'd bet that Rich Shay vs random noob (on a netdecked list) is a 70/30 matchup.

The reason people don't play the format is because of the price of entry. The people who play the format got into it early on, or lucked into some power somehow. Maybe won a mox or two paying legacy, and were like "hey, it would be cool to play this a couple times before I turn it around! I hear I can just play RUG delver there too!" and got hooked.

All digital objects consume the same number of bits.  That said, who knows someone who opened a Mox as a Zendikar "priceless treasure" and start playing Vintage as a result?  Show of hands?  Lucking into a Mox doesn't make you start playing Vintage.

[TheWhiteDragon]

While the price is certainly a barrier (one I think proxies can fix), I think it is a secondary issue to spreading interest in the format.  Let's assume that any proposed tourney allows proxies in some amount (maybe on an adjusted entry fee after 10 proxies).  This still leaves the issue of tourneys being held in areas with a healthy scene as only feeding the already good areas.  If proxies are acceptable, then travel becomes the deterrent, and it is my contention that travel to a good event is MUCH more deterring to a non-invested "testing out the format guy" than to the "I have played vintage since my time in pampers" guy.  So again, I propose we need a way to have tourneys organized in say Dallas, Denver, etc. In order to lower that barrier.  The dedicated will travel anywhere moreso than the unaddicted.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If proxies are acceptable, then travel becomes the deterrent, and it is my contention that travel to a good event is MUCH more deterring to a non-invested "testing out the format guy" than to the "I have played vintage since my time in pampers" guy.

What advantage is there to holding the tournament in an area where Vintage is unpopular vs online?  You must be heavily invested in oil futures.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If proxies are acceptable, then travel becomes the deterrent, and it is my contention that travel to a good event is MUCH more deterring to a non-invested "testing out the format guy" than to the "I have played vintage since my time in pampers" guy.

What advantage is there to holding the tournament in an area where Vintage is unpopular vs online?  You must be heavily invested in oil futures.

As of late, 100% of my magic is online...and it sucks compared to a group of card-slinging buddies in the same room.  The appeal to being with people with a common interest is a major factor in the vintage community.  Also, I think it would be MUCH easier to have people go to a large tourney and really grasp an interest as opposed to loading a deck into MTGO and expecting them to walk away with a compulsion to get into the format.  I think logistically, online is easier for organizing a large tourney, but overall less effective for growing nationwide interest in the format and drawing new people to jump over from standard/legacy into vintage.  After all, would you rather go to the Batman trilogy marathon with your buddies in a theatre, or watch the DVDs at home by yourself while chatting about it over IM to your friends?

[kl0wn]

Just to toss another $0.02 into the discussion, since I've had a little bit of experience with this kind of thing:

What expands the format is building a community at the local level, not by offering monster tournaments with retarded prize support where nobody plays. All that'll do is make the hardcore players travel a longer distance and the TO lose his shirt.

Building a community requires time and tenacity. You need to host cheap tournaments where there is very little at risk and what one might call a "Vintage clinic" on non-tournament days so people can experiment and/or test-drive the format. The TO needs to be prepared for setting up tournaments that nobody shows up to. Repeatedly. You also need to advertise everywhere and attend nearby non-Vintage events to get side games going with Vintage decks you brought. Eventually people will start showing up and getting involved.

That's when the monster tournaments with retarded prize support are useful; your player base will likely unify in an attempt to take down big tournaments.

This is all assuming your core players have some character, integrity, and basic social skills. I'm not sure many of the up-and-comers possess those traits though. I remember things starting to go down hill back in my day, and that was seven years ago. Wow, I'm old.

[Prospero]

Just to toss another $0.02 into the discussion, since I've had a little bit of experience with this kind of thing:

What expands the format is building a community at the local level, not by offering monster tournaments with retarded prize support where nobody plays. All that'll do is make the hardcore players travel a longer distance and the TO lose his shirt.

Building a community requires time and tenacity. You need to host cheap tournaments where there is very little at risk and what one might call a "Vintage clinic" on non-tournament days so people can experiment and/or test-drive the format. The TO needs to be prepared for setting up tournaments that nobody shows up to. Repeatedly. You also need to advertise everywhere and attend nearby non-Vintage events to get side games going with Vintage decks you brought. Eventually people will start showing up and getting involved.

That's when the monster tournaments with retarded prize support are useful; your player base will likely unify in an attempt to take down big tournaments.

This is all assuming your core players have some character, integrity, and basic social skills. I'm not sure many of the up-and-comers possess those traits though. I remember things starting to go down hill back in my day, and that was seven years ago. Wow, I'm old.

This is how the NY community was built. 

I would love to see this happen in other parts of the U.S.

I second this, through and through.

[Samite Healer]

I agree that is how a community is built.  My point is that the reason it hasn't happened yet in parts all over the country is because most TO's, or would-be Vintage TO's, haven't found the benefits of all that effort to be worth the gain.  And, I don't necessarily mean financial gain, but however one measures their positives whether it is more players to play with, new friends, or more dollars.  If they did, we would have seen this already.  After all, Vintage is 19 years old.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I agree that is how a community is built.  My point is that the reason it hasn't happened yet in parts all over the country is because most TO's, or would-be Vintage TO's, haven't found the benefits of all that effort to be worth the gain.  And, I don't necessarily mean financial gain, but however one measures their positives whether it is more players to play with, new friends, or more dollars.  If they did, we would have seen this already.  After all, Vintage is 19 years old.

This goes back to my point about the impetus being on the locals in non-vintage areas to just up and do it themselves as a faulty approach.  If small scale is best, it is fine -  but it has to started by people FROM a healthy scene bringing it to the dry scene.  Non-apple trees don't produce apple seeds after all.  The reason it hasn't spread in 19 years is because it is being bottle up in NE and nobody there is interested in spreading to the other parts of the US.  Maybe its just not feasible for people to travel and plant the seeds...but if it is not done, then vintage will reamain a NE thing in the US until it fades away.  The format has dried up where it once was good (read VA and OH) and is now strictly in NE.  It has not and will not spread unless the NE group plays Johnny Appleseed elsewhere.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Idk if you are aware, but the NE scene isn't the only vintage scene lol. I would argue the PA, NJ, NY scene is now larger then the NE Scene. And I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me. Is this because it has slowly spread down along the east coast dropping apple tree seeds along the way? Lol

[TheWhiteDragon]

Idk if you are aware, but the NE scene isn't the only vintage scene lol. I would argue the PA, NJ, NY scene is now larger then the NE Scene. And I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me. Is this because it has slowly spread down along the east coast dropping apple tree seeds along the way? Lol

I'd consider all that NE...but perhaps what I meant is north east, moreso than new england....I always considered NY to have a better scene than say Vermont.  So take my NE to reflect more as North East.  OH and VA have all but disappeared, and vintage seems condensed to the north east.  That was my main point.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Idk if you are aware, but the NE scene isn't the only vintage scene lol. I would argue the PA, NJ, NY scene is now larger then the NE Scene. And I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me. Is this because it has slowly spread down along the east coast dropping apple tree seeds along the way? Lol

I'd consider all that NE...but perhaps what I meant is north east, moreso than new england....I always considered NY to have a better scene than say Vermont.  So take my NE to reflect more as North East.  OH and VA have all but disappeared, and vintage seems condensed to the north east.  That was my main point.

I think we're doing pretty well in Ohio. A tournament every month or two is certainly better than some places.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The reason people don't play the format is because of the price of entry. The people who play the format got into it early on, or lucked into some power somehow. Maybe won a mox or two paying legacy, and were like "hey, it would be cool to play this a couple times before I turn it around! I hear I can just play RUG delver there too!" and got hooked.

All digital objects consume the same number of bits.  That said, who knows someone who opened a Mox as a Zendikar "priceless treasure" and start playing Vintage as a result?  Show of hands?  Lucking into a Mox doesn't make you start playing Vintage.

Who knows anyone who opened mox as a priceless treasure? As far as the "who knows a section of people from this extremely rare selection of people" point goes, I don't really consider that a valid point. In addition they're more than likely going to be have to near a place where vintage happens. Also I specifically address the legacy scenario because of duels/overlap in playables, and I've met legacy players who've won moxen and wanted to cast them in tourney settings.

As far as the mtgo thing goes, I hate the mtgo interface. It’s just really obnoxious. On top of that, there are plenty of other games out there for people who want to play against a series of nameless faceless opponents over the internet. The personal interaction is really the thing that gives mtg appeal to me as far as gaming goes, if that was lost in vintage, I’d probably just switch to legacy and feel shitty.Personally, I don’t see mtgo as a threat to vintage in the physical, I’d just hate to see it as the only place vintage happens. At that point, I’m out.

[Thecheese]

I am a new vintage player. With a family and job I have very little free time (so standard s out). My local store runs a monthly vintage tourney. I watched a live stream of a vintage match at this store. It noticed me. After speaking to coss, I was all in. He initial investment minus power is no really bad when compared to standard.

The best way o grow vintage is to have local tourney and lots of advertising outside of vintage websites..