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Author Topic: [RtR] Rakdos Charm  (Read 5901 times)
AmbivalentDuck
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« on: September 14, 2012, 12:09:44 pm »

If real,  {B} {R} Goblins just improved considerably:


Implications are obvious: hoses dredge in a way that they don't deal well with game 1, doubles as artifact removal that isn't awful.
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2012, 12:21:45 pm »

MUD and dredge hate in one card is pretty nice. 

The third ability is good vs empty the warrens.  
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2012, 12:26:02 pm »

Potentially a powerhouse in Dark Times, if you splash red, as I have been for a few months. The question is how easily castable it'll be under spheres, which my feeling is, not very. A very intriguing card, though, and worth a long gander.
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2012, 12:27:34 pm »

Utility, a 2 mana cost, and awesomeness?

This card is good!
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2012, 12:38:52 pm »

This card is very nearly awesome.  If only the third ability actually did something it would be fantastic.  If the third ability was "deal 1 damage to each creature" or even "deal 1 damage to target creature" it would be the nuts.
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2012, 12:46:54 pm »

Should have been a pyroclasm to just turn it up to 11.
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 12:47:32 pm »

This card is definitely playable, and wouldn't be surprised if it is a 1 of in the maindeck in anything that can support it.
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 01:17:47 pm »

What a nice card. It isn't broken by any definition of the word, but it has ``utility'' written all over it. Against nearly every deck in Vintage, at least one of these abilities will be useful. I really like the third ability, which can put away an unsuspecting Fish player. I wouldn't be surprised if this saw play as a one-of maindeck in Snapcaster/Bob decks.
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 01:35:30 pm »

Why do I have a feeling that I want to start playing Spell Snare?

Seriously, I didn't think about it being big in Vintage, but you all make valid points.
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 02:00:18 pm »

The last ability is marginal unless you are playing a very aggresive play, or against confidants. You can expect the confidant player having 2-3 creatures at the same time, and that could be enough to kill controller (in few situations, I know).

2 mana against MUD is not always that hard, think about grudge. It's an instant, you can cast it under tangle.

Blasting the grave is so nice for a 2cc instant card Surprised Great against a stacked will, and decent against a stacked thiago.


Charms are being better than I would expect.
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 02:10:47 pm »

The last ability is marginal unless you are playing a very aggresive play, or against confidants. You can expect the confidant player having 2-3 creatures at the same time, and that could be enough to kill controller (in few situations, I know).

2 mana against MUD is not always that hard, think about grudge. It's an instant, you can cast it under tangle.

Blasting the grave is so nice for a 2cc instant card Surprised Great against a stacked will, and decent against a stacked thiago.


Charms are being better than I would expect.

The last ability will usually not be relevant in vintage (at least not in the current meta).

In modern though, I imagine it will be good against those splinter twin/kiki jiki decks.
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 02:33:12 pm »

Steve and I will definitely be talking about this card on the next segment of our RTR spoiler-cast.

Regarding the third ability:  it's not a common thing to deal a LOT of (non-lethal) damage to one's opponent in the first two turns in Vintage, but I would point out that Dredge has a habit of putting 8-12 creatures in play on turn 2 or 3 and I very much look forward to a Dredge player getting burned out by this Charm at some point Smile
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 02:40:07 pm »

Steve and I will definitely be talking about this card on the next segment of our RTR spoiler-cast.

Regarding the third ability:  it's not a common thing to deal a LOT of (non-lethal) damage to one's opponent in the first two turns in Vintage, but I would point out that Dredge has a habit of putting 8-12 creatures in play on turn 2 or 3 and I very much look forward to a Dredge player getting burned out by this Charm at some point Smile

Also, for whatever it's worth, this is a potential answer to Empty the Warrens.
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 02:44:54 pm »

Quote
In modern though, I imagine it will be good against those splinter twin/kiki jiki decks.

This will replace jund charm, you can count on that.
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 04:04:28 pm »

The last option is like Lightning Bolt's option to hit the opponent for 3: it's not the card's most common use, but it's a nice extra option to have that will occasionally win games.

I like this card a lot, and certainly makes me want to try RUB Snapcaster Control.
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 04:33:48 pm »

This might mean that we can start with 4 ingot chewers and 4 of these in our sideboards and have 15 card sideboards again. I like this a lot.
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2012, 05:39:45 pm »

This might mean that we can start with 4 ingot chewers and 4 of these in our sideboards and have 15 card sideboards again. I like this a lot.

For most decks, dedicating only 4 sideboard slots to Dredge is essentially conceding the matchup.
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 05:55:57 pm »

This might mean that we can start with 4 ingot chewers and 4 of these in our sideboards and have 15 card sideboards again. I like this a lot.

For most decks, dedicating only 4 sideboard slots to Dredge is essentially conceding the matchup.

Especially if those 4 slots are a card that costs 2 mana to do what 0 mana cards do.  This is also double colored mana against workshops.  I'm really not sold on this being much more than a singleton fetch target for mystical.
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 06:05:01 pm »

Quote
I'm really not sold on this being much more than a singleton fetch target for mystical

That's exactly how I see it.  A 1 lot main deck. 
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 06:22:06 pm »

Yes, this is less efficient than dedicated hate, but unlike dedicated hate this is versatile enough that you can run 1-2 of these in the maindeck to improve your game 1 chances.
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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 06:43:23 pm »

Yes, this is less efficient than dedicated hate, but unlike dedicated hate this is versatile enough that you can run 1-2 of these in the maindeck to improve your game 1 chances.

Nihil Spellbomb, Bolt, StP, Hurkyl's, and EE are all more efficient options for maindeck hate.
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« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2012, 07:08:32 pm »

Izzet,Selesnya,Azorius charms have "criterion" means we can say that they work at least- responsivility 2 damage,1 draw,2/2 flash viligiance knight.Rakdos charm,unfortunately,is short of criterion in T2 since its modes are all local.But in vintage,Rakdos has its criterion:artifact break mode.If Rakdos Charm is going bad in our hand,we just play it on opponent's mox sapphire.
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« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2012, 07:37:48 pm »

Yes, this is less efficient than dedicated hate, but unlike dedicated hate this is versatile enough that you can run 1-2 of these in the maindeck to improve your game 1 chances.

Nihil Spellbomb, Bolt, StP, Hurkyl's, and EE are all more efficient options for maindeck hate.

More efficient hate for what? None of your cards is useful against both dredge and shops.
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bluemage55
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« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 07:59:01 pm »

Yes, this is less efficient than dedicated hate, but unlike dedicated hate this is versatile enough that you can run 1-2 of these in the maindeck to improve your game 1 chances.

Nihil Spellbomb, Bolt, StP, Hurkyl's, and EE are all more efficient options for maindeck hate.

More efficient hate for what? None of your cards is useful against both dredge and shops.

1x Nihil Spellbomb + 1x Hurkyl's > 2 Rakdos Charms as versatile maindeck hate goes.

And EE is useful against both dredge and shops.
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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 08:21:12 pm »

Yes, this is less efficient than dedicated hate, but unlike dedicated hate this is versatile enough that you can run 1-2 of these in the maindeck to improve your game 1 chances.

Nihil Spellbomb, Bolt, StP, Hurkyl's, and EE are all more efficient options for maindeck hate.

More efficient hate for what? None of your cards is useful against both dredge and shops.

1x Nihil Spellbomb + 1x Hurkyl's > 2 Rakdos Charms as versatile maindeck hate goes.

And EE is useful against both dredge and shops.

Not exactly true.  If you have 2 cards that are good against 2 things vs 1 card that is better against 1 thing, and a 2nd card better against a second thing, while being better able to hose in the one stroke, you have half the chance of drawing either answer against the right deck.  Let me know how ripping that hurkyll's does against dredge, or your nihil against that smokestack.  Rakdos charm is not the most explosive effect vs either deck, but it's at least good vs both and never dead in hand. 

And EE is weaker than rakdos vs either of those decks.  It's also nice that this can deal the deathblow vs fish if you're on aggro and managed to whittle their life low enough.  Never saw hurkylls or nihil pull that trick.
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« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2012, 10:17:06 pm »

Yes, this is less efficient than dedicated hate, but unlike dedicated hate this is versatile enough that you can run 1-2 of these in the maindeck to improve your game 1 chances.

Nihil Spellbomb, Bolt, StP, Hurkyl's, and EE are all more efficient options for maindeck hate.

More efficient hate for what? None of your cards is useful against both dredge and shops.

1x Nihil Spellbomb + 1x Hurkyl's > 2 Rakdos Charms as versatile maindeck hate goes.

And EE is useful against both dredge and shops.

Not exactly true.  If you have 2 cards that are good against 2 things vs 1 card that is better against 1 thing, and a 2nd card better against a second thing, while being better able to hose in the one stroke, you have half the chance of drawing either answer against the right deck.  Let me know how ripping that hurkyll's does against dredge, or your nihil against that smokestack.  Rakdos charm is not the most explosive effect vs either deck, but it's at least good vs both and never dead in hand.

Perhaps I was ambiguous.  What I meant is that in general (against a wide field), you're usually better off with 1x Nihil + 1x Hurkyl's in your maindeck, because on average those cards are reasonable against all decks.  By contrast, Rakdos is both less efficient and more narrow.

And EE is weaker than rakdos vs either of those decks.

Yes, but it's stronger in general.

It's also nice that this can deal the deathblow vs fish if you're on aggro and managed to whittle their life low enough.  Never saw hurkylls or nihil pull that trick.

That's a benefit, sure, but a negligible one.
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« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2012, 10:24:31 pm »

yeah, I don't think this is very good. Seems to me that it would be hard to resolve vs shop and slow & unimpactful vs dredge. Jack of all trades, master of none. Vintage needs cards that are masters. 
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2012, 07:45:52 am »

Steve and I will definitely be talking about this card on the next segment of our RTR spoiler-cast.

Regarding the third ability:  it's not a common thing to deal a LOT of (non-lethal) damage to one's opponent in the first two turns in Vintage, but I would point out that Dredge has a habit of putting 8-12 creatures in play on turn 2 or 3 and I very much look forward to a Dredge player getting burned out by this Charm at some point Smile

That's cool.  Could you guys discuss whether or not all these utility charms in this set (and presumably in Gatecrash) will make Cunning Wish a useful enough spell to warrent play in Vintage?  It seems packing 3-4 charms of differing sorts in your SB with 4 Cunning Wish mainboard would have some nice control synergy.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2012, 08:32:22 am »

yeah, I don't think this is very good. Seems to me that it would be hard to resolve vs shop and slow & unimpactful vs dredge. Jack of all trades, master of none. Vintage needs cards that are masters. 
Having hate at all against Dredge game 1 is impactful. The versatility allows this to be maindecked (as long as mana-base allows).
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« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2012, 10:08:23 am »

yeah, I don't think this is very good. Seems to me that it would be hard to resolve vs shop and slow & unimpactful vs dredge. Jack of all trades, master of none. Vintage needs cards that are masters. 
Having hate at all against Dredge game 1 is impactful. The versatility allows this to be maindecked (as long as mana-base allows).

This is very true.  If you can snag a g1 off dredge then you have a vastly better chance at taking the set.  Using a card that is generically good (instant artifact kill) and can exile a gy (also generically good really) with any added effect (gravy) allows you a good shot at stealing g1 without ever being dead.  Hurkylls and nihil are not always good.  Nihil is probably more universally good since hitting a grave is good vs wasteland recursion, dredge, yawg will, snapcaster, dragon breath, worldgorger, etc.  Hurkylls is good vs shops (sometimes - if you can win before they just replay everything) and BSC...and that's it.  I like nihil, but it is not as versitile as rakdos, and is shut down by null rod (which rakdos also handles btw).  Hurkylls is good vs shops as a one stroke attempt to win and vs BSC.  That's it.  The bounce to BSC is something rakdos can't do, but to say it is generally better is misleadinng.  If all you face is shops and tinker.dec, then yes, hurkyll's is generally more useful.
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