Deathrite Shaman

[serracollector]

So much grave hate has been show so far in this set, already, but I find this one interesting as its a bear, its uber cheap, can fit in a multitude of decks, and can even stop a turn 1 crucible strip lock.  Thoughts?

Pic Added.
-MM

[madmanmike25]

It's not the most powerful card, but it's solid disruption worthy of a few maindeck slots imo.  If you play your own fetches, it acts as a semi-reliable mana producer.  The 2 damage, and to a lesser extent gaining 2 life, will prove quite handy for the kind of decks that would run this.  Definitely worth testing in Vintage.

[Ten-Ten]

i like it...pairs up nicely with Scavenger Ooze 

[TinkerRobot]

This card seems sweet in legacy, I don't know how well it would fare in Vintage though. I'm sure some deck would want it in it's 75, just due to it's versatility. This guy is a pseudo Birds of Paradise if you use it along with fetchlands/strips/wastes, and it can act as pinpoint grave hate (although much, much weaker than Scavenging Ooze in that regard). What's nice is that it gives the player a lot of optionality, both in its hybrid casting cost and as far as lines of play once it's on the battlefield.

[mikekilljoy]

I don't know. Not sure I like the fact that you need to tap to do the work.

[tito del monte]

As much as he might be mana-intensive and not great in multiples, I really dig this dude. Just a fascinatingly designed and balanced card which could provide enough flexibility to be playable in some kind of B/x fishy-deck.

As he's not so great in multiples and you want stuff in the graveyard to feed him, too, I was wondering if he might work in something with Small Pox, maybe Confidants, Bloodghasts and heck Skullclamp, too.Or Shardless Agent even, so you can keep disruption coming whilst paying his activation cost. Not sure what your finisher would be in the absence of Tarmogoyf, probably Ooze... anyway, just thinking out loud. But it's a cool card and one I hope to open at the pre-release.

[Metman]

I like the card.  I compare it to something like Grim Lavamancer.  I'm not sure how playable it is but I think it has some versatility, disruption, and provides a clock at the one spot. 

[Demonic Attorney]

I continue to be amazed at the cards that some people believe to be playable in a format with Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Oath of Druids, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will. 

[ilpeggiore]

it gives mana against workshop, even  if u dont play green
it fights against dredge and snapcaster
it can make goyf 1/2 ot so...
it blocks crucible recursion

meanwhile it kills the opponent or let u stay alive. Ah, i think it wont see playing where there s green. It's a strong black creature

[Guli]

One of the best 1 drops ever printed.

[TinkerRobot]

One of the best 1 drops ever printed.

The more I think about it, I think this is true. At first I suspected this was RtR's replacement for Birds of Paradise, but combined with grave hate, life gain, and lose life ability, it's just insane. I imagine this will work wonders in the same slots you'd run a Noble Hierarch in. The fact that it works in mono black is just gravy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I continue to be amazed at the cards that some people believe to be playable in a format with Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Oath of Druids, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will.

That's a funny way of looking at it. We really have four kinds of decks/goals:
1. You do nothing (brown)
2. I do everything without interacting or even before you can interact (dredge)
3. Let's interact until...oops, I win! (blue)
4. Let's interact until I've ground you down (guli)

It's not so much a question of how powerful a card is in a vacuum so much as how well it fulfills a deck's goals. (Ie. You don't see many Ancestrals in Dredge since the printing of Misstep despite the obvious power level.)  For Guli, this card lets him make mana vs Shops, remove early dredgers from dredge, and exile Snappy targets against blue. So while it's barely on the radar in terms of raw power level, it does everything he wants in a one-drop by enabling him to interact in every single matchup.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I continue to be amazed at the cards that some people believe to be playable in a format with Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Oath of Druids, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will.  

I know, right?  This guy is as bad as a 4 mana brainstorm/unsummon on a stick.  Totally unplayable.  I predict this card will not be used in vintage at all.

Full warning for violation of Section III, subsection 2 of the TMD Rules and Regulations

III.  Inflammatory Posting

Purpose:  Interpersonal attacks, incendiary comments, and other hostile or antagonistic posts make it very difficult for other users to enjoy their time on this site and make contributions.  Specific examples of posts which violate this rule include:

2.  Baiting.   (Posts intended to antagonize other users or instigate conflict.)

Further action is under consideration - Prospero.

Upon further review, this warning is rescinded.  TheWhiteDragon has done much to show the staff that his posts aren't always made in the spirit of a good faith effort to contribute, but that doesn't make every shade of sarcasm or echo of flippant tone equivalent to his worst posts.  I expressed myself sarcastically, and he responded sarcastically.  That's fair, and not against the rules.  -DA

[Stormanimagus]

I'm just gonna say it. Why isn't Demonic Attorney getting at least a warning for basically mocking this whole thread in an entirely counterproductive manner? His comment contributed nothing to the discussion and basically said this card is pointless. Is it solely because he is a mod that he is untouchable? It is this kind of favoritism on the part of the mods that was a main reason I don't post on here any more. It's not so much that White Dragon was in the right for what he said (he was not). It's more that DA also should be reprimanded for his comments if we are going to be this strict about posts that add nothing to a discussion. I'm sorry to have this be the comment I come back to the drain with, but I am so fed up with this sort of thing.

-Storm

[Prospero]

I'm just gonna say it. Why isn't Demonic Attorney getting at least a warning for basically mocking this whole thread in an entirely counterproductive manner? His comment contributed nothing to the discussion and basically said this card is pointless. Is it solely because he is a mod that he is untouchable? It is this kind of favoritism on the part of the mods that was a main reason I don't post on here any more. It's not so much that White Dragon was in the right for what he said (he was not). It's more that DA also should be reprimanded for his comments if we are going to be this strict about posts that add nothing to a discussion. I'm sorry to have this be the comment I come back to the drain with, but I am so fed up with this sort of thing.

-Storm

Noah, really?

Let's start the carousel:

III.  Inflammatory Posting

Purpose:  Interpersonal attacks, incendiary comments, and other hostile or antagonistic posts make it very difficult for other users to enjoy their time on this site and make contributions.  Specific examples of posts which violate this rule include:

1.  Flaming.  (The staff, and not TMD users, has discretion to determine what constitutes a flame and what doesn't)

2.  Baiting.   (Posts intended to antagonize other users or instigate conflict.)

3.  Backseat modding.  (Non-moderators acting as though they are moderators.)

VII.  Major Infractions

Purpose:  Conduct that is intentionally or maliciously disruptive to the forums is dealt with severely, and can result in an immediate ban.  Specific examples of conduct covered by this rule are:  

1. Mod sass.  Public belligerence towards TMD staff, collectively or individually, in the performance of their official duties.

5. Trolling.  

7. Any behavior intended to cause severe disruption to the forums or the Vintage community, or which forseeably has that effect.  

There are a whole host of issues with your response:

1.  You knew that it would be better handled privately, and yet you publicly posted it anyways.

2.  You decided that it was fine to attack another member on this site, regardless of his position as an Admin on this site.

3.  You felt that it was appropriate to question moderation openly, in lieu of using private channels (email, PMs, Facebook, anything) to do the same thing.

I'm dumbfounded that you thought this post was appropriate.  While you may disagree with the manner in which Chris made his point, as to the playability of this card, you committed many more egregious errors in communicating your disagreement.

You're receiving a full warning for your post.  Further action may be taken here as well.

If your intention was to prove Chris wrong, then you should have worked to do it with reasoned argument, in lieu of a screed.  If you intend on continuing to post on TMD you are going to be expected to do just that.  Posts that don't adhere to the site rules will be moderated, every time, without exception.  There are hundreds of Vintage pilots who use this site every day.  They find it within themselves to conduct themselves appropriately.  You, TheWhiteDragon, and anyone else considering breaking the rules like this will receive moderation by the staff.

To everyone else in this thread; if these detours continue, this thread will be locked.  Mod sass will not be tolerated.  If you have a problem with a moderator, or moderation that was taken, contact the staff using the PM function and the issue will be considered privately.

For anyone who hasn't read them yet, I also highly recommend reading the site rules, which can be found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38003.0

- Prospero

[Guli]

It may not have exalted like Noble, but it has 6 abilities printed on it. It reminds me of Scryb Ranger and it works very well with Ranger too... I will be working on this 1cc utility in my Ranger.dec. Running wastelands and fetchlands will give this guy plenty of fuel to keep going.

[Meddling Mike]

Well, there's nothing that does quite what this card does in that it can generate mana and attack the graveyard. I think the closest comparison for a card that sees current vintage play would have to be Noble Heirarch. This does have some advantages over Heirarch.

1. It can be cast for one black OR one green mana.
2. It is capable of generating black and red mana.
3. It's a 1/2, so it doesn't die to things like Darkblast. Because of this, you can also attack with him when you have a bunch of creatures and don't need one of his tap abilities. He can also block or hold back a Dark Confidant/Snapcasters/Etc.
4. If you have extra black or green mana lying around you can remove Instant/Sorceries or Creatures and gain some life/do some damage in the process.
5. If you have the opportunity to use him to generate mana, you can simultaneously hurt their ability to recur cards with Crucible of Worlds or their land drop off Yawgmoth's Will.

This has to be judged against the benefits of Heirarch.

1) There doesn't need to be a land in the graveyard to generate mana.
2) He has exalted. This let's you use his ability and still get his damage contribution through at the same time. This is better in some combat situations where you can get the damage through because of exalted where you wouldn't be able to otherwise.
3) Not anti-synergistic with Tarmogoyf.
4) Not redundant/less effective in multiples.

i like it...pairs up nicely with Scavenger Ooze  

5) I don't really see this. You mean that it can remove a land and make mana to activate the Ooze's ability? Heirarch will do that, but Heirarch doesn't eat all the creatures that Ooze wants to eat to get bigger like this card wants to.

The main problem I see with this guy in lieu of something like Heirarch is that his mana generation is conditional. The other stuff I mentioned matter, but this is the stumbling block I can't get past when asked if I think this card is Vintage playable. They're going to lead with fetches and basics to play around your strip effects anyways. He's not really difficult to play around to make him a Norwood Ranger. I can see a number of realistic scenarios that lead to you sitting there unable to activate this guy on turn 2 and that's always just unacceptable. Guli pointed out that you can certainly build your deck to lessen the likelihood of this by being proactive with putting your own lands in the bin, but how many fetches/strip effects can you run before it compromises your actual mana producing lands?

It may not have exalted like Noble, but it has 6 abilities printed on it.

I count 3 abilities.

[AmbivalentDuck]

He's not really difficult to play around to make him a Norwood Ranger

Exalted was never that important vs Time Vault. In that matchup, his job is mostly to prevent Ancestral recursion. It's easy to argue that if Dredge or Shops are turning him into Norwood Ranger, he's done his job and then some. Shops would have to elect not to Waste Guli's nonbasics. Dredge would have to not turn Bazaar sideways.

Also, since I can't find the word Jace in this thread, that 2 damage to Jace is not trivial.

[Phele]

There is no 2 damage to Jace as there is no damage written on Shaman, just lose life. You can attack Jace, but that's just one damage  

[vaughnbros]

I could see this being played in a black deck as an early game mana accelerator late game graveyard removal, but I just dont see a huge benefit for non black decks.  The two important graveyard removal aspects are instant/sorcery, this cripples blue graveyards, and land, this cripples crucible shenanigans.  If you dont have black this doesnt do much at all against a blue players graveyard.  Dredge generally dumps multiple creatures in their yard at a time removing a single one per turn isn't really going to hurt them that badly.  Leaving the last ability to hit welder and that's about it. 

So in conclusion I could see this being played in the 4 color fish decks as an additional mana fixer and it seems to be a good option for any black deck looking for a mana dork.

[Guli]

You guys don't see it because you have little or zero play experience with the decks I am suggesting, so the context of which I talk when talking about Shaman. I can not stress how important this card is against crucible workshop decks when you want to power out a Stony. This card does it ALL. Turn 1 Shaman, turn 2 Wasteland > exile the land you wasted for   tap the other land you used to cast Shaman, cast Stony. If there is a sphere effect, then use a spirit or mox to bypass it.

Each ability does 2 things, hence 6 abilities.

This guy is not competing with noble, wrong starting point of your analysis, because you don't understand the card (yet). It will be either the full 8 or 4 Shaman and 2-3 Noble.

This is the list I am trying at the moment to fool around with the idea:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Cavern of Souls

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Scryb Ranger
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shardless Agent
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Thornscape Apprentice

4 Stony Silence
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
SB: 2 Devout Chaplain
SB: 2 Karakas

[credmond]

This guy combines nicely with crop rotation. Crop would suck if it ran into a counter. With this guy out you maybe mitigate the downside of crop enough in a GW build with lands that do nasty things in play (karakas, maze of ith, bazaar, etc.).

This guy seems really saucy with dustbowl in play but that combo is probably too slow for Vintage.

[xouman]

I could not help but think that Shaman does not like Cavern, but another 4 fetchlands. More mana fuel, and colored mana to play its abilities. I understand that cavern improves big blue matches, but Shaman itself it's not a human.

Is zenith a good idea? I don't doubt about it's tutor strength, but

1-it's bad with cavern (can't pay G with it, cavern does not protect it)
2-one more mana is relevant in this deck
3-i can't think about more problems. Indeed i like how it's only 1 life loss with confidant and it's big in the first turn fetching Dryad arbor. But's it's still a counterable spell in a cavern deck.


I love your decks Guli (even when I never play them), and I'm believe this new card has the potential to appear in vintage tables. Keep your imagination on

[serracollector]

It was actually me who said it had six abilities when me and Guli were discussing this card.

Its a 1/2 for one mana of 2 different easily splashable colors, and each ability does 2 different things, both of which always benefit you. I think the true benefit of this card is its splashability.  It can rock a mostly black deck with Sieze/Duress/Hymns, it can work in those Jund decks as of late, it can be splashed in GW beats.  etc etc. 

[Guli]

I agree that Cavern is less good when you start mixing too much non humans.

GSZ is adpoted from my old lists, maybe it is not needed.

Shaman will be a staple in the future.

[psyburat]

This guy seems solid as the foundation of a WUB Fish deck built using the same style as Noble Fish.  By leading with him off an Underground Sea, you can open yourself up to either reactively playing Daze on their first spell or proactively using a Wasteland during your second turn while still following up with a Meddling Mage or Dark Confidant.  Although this style deck won't have as much of an aggressive power as attacking with Qasali Pridemage or Tarmogoyf, strong substitutions combined with the drawing power of Dark Confidant may be able to offset this in a way that may make it better than the deck it's modeled off.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I continue to be amazed at the cards that some people believe to be playable in a format with Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Oath of Druids, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will.  

I know, right?  This guy is as bad as a 4 mana brainstorm/unsummon on a stick.  Totally unplayable.  I predict this card will not be used in vintage at all.

Full warning for violation of Section III, subsection 2 of the TMD Rules and Regulations

III.  Inflammatory Posting

Purpose:  Interpersonal attacks, incendiary comments, and other hostile or antagonistic posts make it very difficult for other users to enjoy their time on this site and make contributions.  Specific examples of posts which violate this rule include:

2.  Baiting.   (Posts intended to antagonize other users or instigate conflict.)

Further action is under consideration - Prospero.

Upon further review, this warning is rescinded.  TheWhiteDragon has done much to show the staff that his posts aren't always made in the spirit of a good faith effort to contribute, but that doesn't make every shade of sarcasm or echo of flippant tone equivalent to his worst posts.  I expressed myself sarcastically, and he responded sarcastically.  That's fair, and not against the rules.  -DA

First off, DA - thanks for having a sense of humor.  I like to be sarcastic and tread near the border at times, but hopefully am not crossing a line.  I enjoy the sarcasm/humor of some posts here as much as the content (to date, "To Bill Copes" is my favorite thread.).  So it is an honest attempt to lighten the mood - though I admit I should add more content with said humor.  That said...

I like this card to a degree.  It seems too slow to stop dredge.  You need to cast it, then activate - and by then, you are usually dead.  Anything that can't be played until after dredge gets a full turn needs an immediate effect before their second turn.  When on the draw, I've almost never won where the opponent got 2 unimpeded bazaar activations.

The black ability is nifty - but basically means this is at best a 2 damage critter and sometimes not even.  Hitting spells in the grave is neat, as is critters to slow dredge/stop welder aggro, but grafdigger's is just better at this with an immediate effect and the bonus of hitting oath, tinker, narcomoeba.  This can hit lands, which is good, but will often be a worse version of lotus cobra or other cards for that matter.  I DO like that non-green decks can still use this guy as a birds of paradise, and this is where he is actually best.  The other best is he's a 1/2 for 1, so he chumps 1/1s (somewhat relevant - lackey, selkie).  I run a B/R deck now and it is neat to see a 1/2 for B that plays BoP or blue grave hoser, but I wonder if not using his 3rd ability makes hims still worth it.  I think G/B has strong enough options as is without needing this guy.

[TheWhiteDragon]

You guys don't see it because you have little or zero play experience with the decks I am suggesting, so the context of which I talk when talking about Shaman. I can not stress how important this card is against crucible workshop decks when you want to power out a Stony. This card does it ALL. Turn 1 Shaman, turn 2 Wasteland > exile the land you wasted for   tap the other land you used to cast Shaman, cast Stony. If there is a sphere effect, then use a spirit or mox to bypass it.

Each ability does 2 things, hence 6 abilities.

This guy is not competing with noble, wrong starting point of your analysis, because you don't understand the card (yet). It will be either the full 8 or 4 Shaman and 2-3 Noble.

This is the list I am trying at the moment to fool around with the idea:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Cavern of Souls

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Scryb Ranger
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shardless Agent
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Thornscape Apprentice

4 Stony Silence
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
SB: 2 Devout Chaplain
SB: 2 Karakas

Interesting build, but a question - when is shaman really better than 1) rest in peace, or 2) grafdigger's cage.  You're already naming human most likely with cavern, so you're probably not banking on the uncounterability.  If you want to totally hose graveyards, RiP seems very much better AND it is the hardest of permanents to remove (vs critters which are second only to artifact critters).  If you want to somewhat hose graveyards, and quickly and more comprehensively, cage is your tool.

It is extra damage and at times extra mana - but its grave hating is subpar to those other two cards AND it triggers oath and can't stop tinker unlike the other cards.  Granted, oath is tough anyway, but this is a turn 1 play you want to drop which walks right into a land/mox/oath.  Your other cards are typically 2 drops which let you see oath coming or have something to hose that matchup as a one drop (cage).

As was said before, it is a jack of all, master of none.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Interesting build, but a question - when is shaman really better than 1) rest in peace, or 2) grafdigger's cage.

When you open with one of the cards in question and your opponent plays a Lodestone on their first turn.

[StanleyAugust]

This is a very great card. On paper it might look a little bit weak, but in testing it has proved very valuable do to his flexibility. He's a mana producer, he's a graveyard hoser and at the same time he deals a bit of damage.

I'm currently testing him in a 4-color Fish deck, and he's been pretty important actually.