My take on Espresso Stax

[vaughnbros]

 
There are certain cards you just don't cut.  Trinisphere is one of them.

I remember people saying the same thing about Balance in 5C Stax.

If I remember correctly, Nick blasted his way though a tournament a few years back without Balance.

You cant use results to disprove the use of a singleton in a deck that doesn't tutor.  You could easily go through a whole tournament without ever drawing that card in the first place.

[Twaun007]

 
There are certain cards you just don't cut.  Trinisphere is one of them.

I remember people saying the same thing about Balance in 5C Stax.

If I remember correctly, Nick blasted his way though a tournament a few years back without Balance.

You cant use results to disprove the use of a singleton in a deck that doesn't tutor.  You could easily go through a whole tournament without ever drawing that card in the first place.

I'm using countless hours of testing and having Trinisphere not doing anything when its drawn after turn 2/3 to back up my claim.

[vaughnbros]

 
There are certain cards you just don't cut.  Trinisphere is one of them.

I remember people saying the same thing about Balance in 5C Stax.

If I remember correctly, Nick blasted his way though a tournament a few years back without Balance.

You cant use results to disprove the use of a singleton in a deck that doesn't tutor.  You could easily go through a whole tournament without ever drawing that card in the first place.

I'm using countless hours of testing and having Trinisphere not doing anything when its drawn after turn 2/3 to back up my claim.

How much do your moxen, black lotus, ancient tombs, and workshops do when they are drawn after turn 3?  A majority of workshops staples, and vintage staples in general, get worse as the game goes on.  I'm sorry, but turns 1, 2, and 3 are more important than any other in vintage and I would never cut a card because its only good on those turns.   When we are talking trinisphere it only becomes dead when I have 3+ sphere effects out, unless my opponent is a goldfish this shouldnt happen by turn 2/3.  It's impact on force of wills, moxen, as well as what cards they choose to target with their ingot chewers, grudges, nature's claim and other single target spells is always huge.

Since there are no deck restraints workshops doesnt already have and it isnt effective in multiples.  Essentially by saying you wouldnt play the fully allotted number of trinispheres in shops you are saying it should be unrestricted.  And I don't think that there are many who would agree that it should be.

[msg67183]

Lance, your argument is very strong and makes sense to me.
While Im at it, how about I ask this, people have been saying that Tabernacle is good, but not as good as I thought against fish, would a 3rd Hellkite and 4th Ghost Quarter be better? They both help with mana denial and Hellkite helps against opposing Trygons and other dudes.

[msg67183]

Just clarifying that my last question is for anyone to answer. I am still in the process of learning the Workshop deck as a whole and would appreciate any feedback that anyone can provide.

[Twaun007]

Lance, your argument is very strong and makes sense to me.
While Im at it, how about I ask this, people have been saying that Tabernacle is good, but not as good as I thought against fish, would a 3rd Hellkite and 4th Ghost Quarter be better? They both help with mana denial and Hellkite helps against opposing Trygons and other dudes.

Before I can make any suggestions, what has been so problematic for you against fish? Is it the Tyrgon's, Pridemage, swords, etc...?

I've been running this bad boy lately and I haven't had any problems with the fishies. If Noble Fish becomes popular out here I'd probably cut the Leylines of Sanctity for Dismembers and pitch the Serum Powders for some type of fish hate. Have you toyed around with Wurmcoil Engine? That thing is a monster for Fish to deal with.

Maindeck (60 cards):
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Duplicant
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Pithing Needle
4 Serum Powder
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Lands (18):
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:(15)
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Maze of Ith
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale

[msg67183]

Well, I havent played Vintage since May, so I have no idea what the metagame looks like. I think Hellkite would be good against dredge as well as fish. For the record I have to sideboardin all 15 cards for dredge. I also think Ghost Quarter would be great because Fish decks only play like 2 basics, and the other decks it comes in against play 0. I am used to playing Wurmcoil, but I dont think it does enough against dredge.

[msg67183]

I played this deck yesterday except the Tabernacles were Wurmcoils. I went 3-2 barely missing the Top 8. My matchups were:

Round 1: UR Landstill 2-0 win
Round 2: Grixis Control 1-2 loss
Round 3: Talrand Gush 1-2 loss
Round 4: Bye
Round 5: Burning Long 2-1 win

My losses were to brokenness which I could do nothing about. All in all I love the deck the only change I made is the Hellkites became Ratchet Bombs because I believe they would have helped my losses. Prop of the day, I didn't sideboard once all tournament!

[msg67183]

I really enjoy this list, I would actually like any kind of discussion about Espresso Stax and people's thoughts on it in today's meta game. I would also like to hear explanations about card choices for sideboards. Thank you all who participate.

[msg67183]

Most updated list in original post. I decided on 3 Ratchet Bombs to sideboard in against Burning Long and Talrand Gush exchanged with the 3 Phyrexian Revokers. Let me know your thoughts, looking at the meta game from the last Bloomsburg tournament, since I only play in Bloomsburg.

[Prospero]

I would really love to see some innovation and work in Shops that didn't come from three guys in New York.

That's a very myopic comment.  I'll be completely honest here too, the last "innovation" I have seen regarding Shop decks would be decks with Trading Post and Buried Ruin performing well.  Everything else is way to obvious for anyone (or any 3 players) to take credit for.  I'm actually curious now as to what cards these 3 players claim to have pioneered for Stax.

A Stax deck will look like a Stax deck despite any other names tacked on.  There won't be too many differences, or you are most likely playing an aggro deck at that point.

For anything totally mind blowing to be added to a Shop deck, we need new printings.  Otherwise, we have all seen it before.

If you define myopia as four years worth of foresight and efforts, sure.  I'll give BC the credit that he deserves for being a scholar and a gentleman.  His Shop list at GenCon was the last really innovative thing that I've seen in the U.S. that wasn't from New York.  

I have a tough time thinking that anything was 'obvious' regarding the changes that were made with the decks that the Forinos and I have played.  If the changes that were made to 5C were obvious (including the cutting of Balance, a decision which I was lambasted for after I won a Lotus, beating Mastriano in the finals) then why weren't they made prior to when we made them?  If the changes were obvious, why were people calling 5C dead before it went on a run in 2009, beating some of the best blue pilots in the U.S.?

Espresso Stax was so obvious that it saw cards that had never seen play in Shops (Serum Powder), or cards that were forgotten (Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port, Serrated Arrows) used.  Martello was so obvious that it seemed like everyone who decided to run Forgemasters believed that they had to run them with Metalworkers, and at least one Blightsteel Colossus and one Myr Battlesphere.  MUD Marinara was another Shop deck that was developed in the Forino family basement as we were working towards GenCon 2011.  Nobody was playing Welders in Shops when it was done, or, I should say, nobody was playing and winning with Welders in Shops at that time.

Now, I think, we have true myopia; a comment in which you claim that there will be no new innovations in Shops until we see new printings.  Here we have Raffaele Forino, who has taken a Shop deck with no Tangle Wires, no Smokestacks, no Crucibles, no Forgemasters, no Welders, and four Mutavaults, and we have another win under Forino's belt.  I needn't remind you that we have seen no new printings since your comment, and that we have seen cards that have been available to everyone be put to uses to which they hadn't been previously used.  

Having played a deck since the dawn of time does not make an individual a master at a pillar.  A true understanding of the pillar, the metagames that we witness, and the proper responses to said metagames is what comprises a master.  A master puts up results.  Results are the only things that matter.  I can sit at home and endlessly goldfish, but it will be to no avail.  It will prove nothing.  And while I may believe in the power of what I produce, without an arena in which it competes against the decks in the field, it's impossible to say that the deck is anything more than a pile of 60 cards.  Raffaele Forino, Vinnie Forino and I have results with Shops.  It doesn't mean that we're always right, but it does mean that there was thought, dedication and skill that went into those decisions.  Tearing down a deck and 'improving' it is something that anybody can do, but you better know what you're doing.  And you better understand the ramifications.  

You say that a Stax deck will look like any other Stax deck, regardless of the names that are tacked on.  Stax is an abbreviation of Smokestack, as I'm sure you're aware.  Martello runs no Smokestacks.  Phyrexian Shops ran no Smokestacks.  Terra Nova runs no Smokestacks.  To call any of those decks 'Stax' is to evidence a fundamental lack of understanding and appreciation for the pillar.

[madmanmike25]

His Shop list at GenCon was the last really innovative thing that I've seen in the U.S. that wasn't from New York.

That is precisely one of the last shop lists that caught my eye.  That and Lotushead actually using Trading Post was the last thing that made me go "hmmmm" because I've already seen it otherwise.

For the record you are probably right about 5c Stax.  I really do not care one bit about 5c Stax that although it is capable of getting wins, I find it to be an inferior deck.  It is a contender for sure.  Come on, there are FIVE colors.  There are almost endless possibilities for you guys in NEW YORK to work with.  Have fun with that.  I'll be busy playing what I feel is a better deck.

Hey, why don't you run Serum Powder anymore?  Isn't Serum Powder the reason you dubbed it Espresso Stax?  Without Serum Powder, Espresso Stax is pretty much just Stax......of course unless you don't run Smokestack.  Then you got me.  But I realize talking more about that might lead to a red text discussion so I will leave it at that.  Hopefully as a mod you can respect my wish to not go against any rules.

When did I forget about Rishadan Port???  I think that card is crazy good.  My list runs 4 of those bad boys.  I have a very potent and probably the SLOWEST Stax list out there.  But never mind I'm not in New York and don't get to go to tournaments so you won't ever see it.  My bad.

As for Maze of Ith and Serrated Arrows....Cool stuff, but those are cards better left to the sideboard in my opinion.  For the record all THREE cards are at least mentioned in the original MUD primer by Arthur Tindemans which I assume you have read even though you are in New York.

Yes, I have been playing Stax-type decks for ages.  Yes, I still feel I learn all the time and that's the beauty of the game.  You are fortunate to have a vintage scene in New York and I am envious because I do not.  I still find your "three guys in New York" comment to be myopic and I'm sure others (hello, Europe?) feel the same way.

Please keep up the good work in New York, which is apparently the last bastion of Workshop technology.  I guess I will have to keep my thoughts on Workshop decks out of TMD.  That's fine by me.

[nataz]

Actually, stax isn't from smokestack, it's from the original name of the first sphere based prison deck "the four thousand dollar solution" aka $T4KS.

 http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5273_T4KS_The_Four_Thousand_Dollar_Solution_To_The_Type_One_Metagame.html
 
Please continue your argument about who created what.

[xouman]

There are some more people innovating, maybe not as successful lists as Martello's, but original indeed:

http://www.manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top8-lcv-2012-octubre

David Morales played 4 MWS, 4 force of will, welders, baleful strix, crop rotation and even ray of revelation in the SB. He lost 2-0 against MUD in the Top-8, but IIRC, he was undefeated in the swiss. Here is a video of the T8 matches

http://www.manainfinito.com/videos/lcv-2012-octubre-cuartos-morales-vs-carbonell


Btw, there were forgemaster muds, but also there is a null rod mud in that Top8

[msg67183]

The original post has the updated decklist. I was wondering if any of you workshop masters could see a way to fit a Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale into the main deck? I don't want to cut a land, because all of the lands I play are there for a reason. I would like to squeeze it in because it is yet another out to Empty the Warrens on the draw, as well as creature slaughters.

[Twaun007]

The original post has the updated decklist. I was wondering if any of you workshop masters could see a way to fit a Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale into the main deck? I don't want to cut a land, because all of the lands I play are there for a reason. I would like to squeeze it in because it is yet another out to Empty the Warrens on the draw, as well as creature slaughters.

Having a rogue Tabernacle in the main for EtW seems kind of loose since your only options to raw dog it off the top due to the lack of tutors in the deck. If you're hesitant on cutting land, you could always take out an artifact to fit in Powder Keg, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, or even Caltrops? You might be able to get more value out of one of those since you can remove problematic creatures, Moxen, artifacts, and etc...  

 

[credmond]

The original post has the updated decklist. I was wondering if any of you workshop masters could see a way to fit a Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale into the main deck? I don't want to cut a land, because all of the lands I play are there for a reason. I would like to squeeze it in because it is yet another out to Empty the Warrens on the draw, as well as creature slaughters.

Having a rogue Tabernacle in the main for EtW seems kind of loose since your only options to raw dog it off the top due to the lack of tutors in the deck. If you're hesitant on cutting land, you could always take out an artifact to fit in Powder Keg, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, or even Caltrops? You might be able to get more value out of one of those since you can remove problematic creatures, Moxen, artifacts, and etc...  

 

Expedition map is an option. It's great because it can also be used to grab Workshop, Strip, or Tolarian when the situation calls for it.

[Will]

The original post has the updated decklist. I was wondering if any of you workshop masters could see a way to fit a Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale into the main deck? I don't want to cut a land, because all of the lands I play are there for a reason. I would like to squeeze it in because it is yet another out to Empty the Warrens on the draw, as well as creature slaughters.

No offense, but this is an awful idea.  What percentage of the field do you really think plays out early Empty the Warrens or creates a "creature slaughter"?  Tabernacle really isn't that good except against Dredge or Empty in game 1.  I'd expect maybe 5-10% of the field to be playing Dredge and at most 5% playing Empty.  Add in say 10% that plays enough creatures where Tabernacle would really matter.  That's at most 25% and more realistically 10-15% of the field of any given event where you'd really want to have a Tabernacle maindeck and would be able to utilize it.  I have no idea what you would really cut for Tabernacle in the main, especially since playing just 1 is pointless given a stock Espresso list because you have no library manipulation or ways to find the Tabernacle.  Your options are therefore to run 3 or so, which I don't recommend or to run 2-3 Expedition Maps which could be viable but is not necessary given what you would have to give up to fit it in. 

[msg67183]

I tested this list against Terra Nova today and went 2-1 only losing to my own Mana Crypt. Then tested the list against UWB Bomberman and went 4-1 only losing to a turn 1 Tinker while on the draw. The deck seems very strong and I don't think it needs any changes to it.

I would also like to add that the 4 Ghost Quarters and 3 Ratchet Bombs in the Sideboard are INSANE! The mana denial aspect of this deck just wins games on its own.