My take on Espresso Stax

[msg67183]

I am new to Espresso Stax, but have done alot of reading about it. Here is my list and card explinations:

"Dirt and Water"

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Sideboard:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Ratchet Bomb

*IGNORE THESE COMMENTS*

Now I decided to go with 3 Thorn of Amethyst to ensure that I beat Blue decks. Karn, Silver Golem is a 2 of due to his Legendaryness. Mishra's Factory has become the new staple to any Workshop deck. I decided on 4 Dismember in my sideboard due to the rise of Kuldotha Forgemaster variants. Dismember kills Kuldotha along with Lodestone, Steel Hellkite, all the fish critters and more. The 3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vales are to ensure a lock against creature based decks. Tormod's Crypt is for Dredge obviously as well as Workshop decks when I am on the draw since Chalice of the Void comes out, being really bad on the draw against any Workshop deck. And finally Grafdigger's Cage is for Dredge and Oath decks. Although I am not sure what would come out against Oath in this case. Let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions please post them. Thank you for reading.

Updated list. Minor changes make this list feel more "controlling" for my taste.

[brokenbacon]

Shops is one of the decks I really dislike but respect, and that is a very solid and respectable list. If I was going to sleeve up a Shops list tomorrow, I would throw that bad boy together.
Best of luck!

[quicksilvervii]

I am new to Espresso Stax, but have done alot of reading about it. Here is my list and card explinations:

"Dirt and Water"

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Sideboard:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Dismember
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Now I decided to go with 3 Thorn of Amethyst to ensure that I beat Blue decks. Karn, Silver Golem is a 2 of due to his Legendaryness. Mishra's Factory has become the new staple to any Workshop deck. I decided on 4 Dismember in my sideboard due to the rise of Kuldotha Forgemaster variants. Dismember kills Kuldotha along with Lodestone, Steel Hellkite, all the fish critters and more. The 3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vales are to ensure a lock against creature based decks. Tormod's Crypt is for Dredge obviously as well as Workshop decks when I am on the draw since Chalice of the Void comes out, being really bad on the draw against any Workshop deck. And finally Grafdigger's Cage is for Dredge and Oath decks. Although I am not sure what would come out against Oath in this case. Let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions please post them. Thank you for reading.

Played a similar list in December of 2011 in some of the online tournaments if you scour the boards.

It played pretty well.  I'd play it again.  List is +/-4 cards in the MD.

[Samoht]

Pretty sure you don't want the 4th Metamorph. Would suggest Steel Hellkite in that spot.

[Twaun007]

I was thinking about running a similar version of stax at the TSO, but I've discovered you run into difficulty against the Metal Worker/Kuldotha workshop decks. You really have no way of stopping the acceleration through Metal Worker or the tutoring capabilities of Kuldotha early in the game and unchecked those dominate the mirror.

I'd recommend trying to fit some type of artifact to deal with those and Vault Key.

 

[Bill Copes]

I was thinking about running a similar version of stax at the TSO, but I've discovered you run into difficulty against the Metal Worker/Kuldotha workshop decks. You really have no way of stopping the acceleration through Metal Worker or the tutoring capabilities of Kuldotha early in the game and unchecked those dominate the mirror.

I'd recommend trying to fit some type of artifact to deal with those and Vault Key.

What would you cut to fit Revokers into this beast?  I essentially have the same thing sleeved up, +- 5 cards.  I like the idea of the dismembers out of the board, although they don't do much vs. Wurmcoil Engine.  I've got a couple of Dupes in there for that.  I'm also rocking Ghost Quarters instead of the Tabernacles.  They pee pee on the mirror.

[Twaun007]

I was thinking about running a similar version of stax at the TSO, but I've discovered you run into difficulty against the Metal Worker/Kuldotha workshop decks. You really have no way of stopping the acceleration through Metal Worker or the tutoring capabilities of Kuldotha early in the game and unchecked those dominate the mirror.

I'd recommend trying to fit some type of artifact to deal with those and Vault Key.

What would you cut to fit Revokers into this beast?  I essentially have the same thing sleeved up, +- 5 cards.  I like the idea of the dismembers out of the board, although they don't do much vs. Wurmcoil Engine.  I've got a couple of Dupes in there for that.  I'm also rocking Ghost Quarters instead of the Tabernacles.  They pee pee on the mirror.

If I run this Monster I'd cut the Thorn of Amethysts for Revokers or Null Rods. If I choose to run Null Rods I'd swop out the Karn's for Duplicants.

[msg67183]

What im not sure about is that if I ran X Phyrexian Revokers, that would be more cards that would need to come in against Dredge since Revoker is not that great against Dredge. What would you guys suggest? And do you think Ghost Quarter would be superior to Tabernacle? Dismember is not too great against Dredge.

[Twaun007]

What im not sure about is that if I ran X Phyrexian Revokers, that would be more cards that would need to come in against Dredge since Revoker is not that great against Dredge. What would you guys suggest?

You can take this with a grain of salt, but I would board like this

-2 Crucible of Worlds
-3 Smokestack
-4 Tangle Wire
-4 Chalice of the Void

Then just bring in all the Hate and hope you see it.

My chosen forms of Ichorid hate also vary from yours. I prefer Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt since it cantrips and gets around Leyline of Sanctity.

 

And do you think Ghost Quarter would be superior to Tabernacle?

This is probably metagame dependent, but realize these combat two different things. One punishes greedy mana bases and the other punished the creature assault.

Dismember is not too great against Dredge.

I agree.

[msg67183]

Usually I would only sideboard out 4 Smokestack, 4 Tangle Wire, Mana Crypt, and then 2 other cards to bring in the 8 Dredge hate and 3 Tabernacles. I would have to take out the Dismembers if I wanted to play Revokers. The other solution I see is switching Thorns for Revokers and then just taking out the Revokers instead of Mana Crypt and 2 unsure cards. But then what would I take out for Fish?

[Bill Copes]

If you swap Thorns for Revokers, against dredge:

-4 Smokestack
-4 Tanglewire
-3 Revoker

+ 8 Dredge Hate and  + 3 Tabernacles (what else do these come in for, fish?)

I'm unsure why you are siding out Mana Crypt.  It's the best Mox in the deck.

[Bill Copes]

Wanted to keep this to a separate post

Here's what I've got thrown together.  I'll be playing it at Pandemonium Tomorrow.  I run 61 cards main.

8 Mox / Lotus / Crypt / Sol
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Buried Ruin
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Trinisphere

SB
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Duplicant
2 Triskelion

I'm not sure about the Ratchet bombs yet.  I got blown out by Oath at the last tournament, so I wanted something else besides Cages to fight against it a little bit.  Would Jester's Cap be better?  I've never won a game with a Cap activation.

Ghost Quarters come in against Dredge, Shops, Landstill and against decks that run very few basics.  I might go back to 3, because they were pretty awesome.

[msg67183]

I am going to try playing 3 Revokers in place of the 3 Thorns, then instead of 3 Tabernacles I am playing 3 Ghost Quarter since I only need to take out 4 Tangle Wires against Fish and in comes the 4 Dismembers. The last idea I have is cutting the Mana Vault and the 4th Metamorph for 2 more lands, they can be 2 Buried Ruins for utility, 2 City of Traitors for acceleration, a Ghost Quarter and a Buried Ruin or any combination of these. What do you think?

[Twaun007]

Usually I would only sideboard out 4 Smokestack, 4 Tangle Wire, Mana Crypt, and then 2 other cards to bring in the 8 Dredge hate and 3 Tabernacles. I would have to take out the Dismembers if I wanted to play Revokers. The other solution I see is switching Thorns for Revokers and then just taking out the Revokers instead of Mana Crypt and 2 unsure cards. But then what would I take out for Fish?

I always sided out my SoR’s vs Fish (since there stuff is so cheap anyway) and brought in Tabernacle’s and Maze of Ith. Fish has a very difficult time combating Tangle Wire, Tabernacle, Stack, and Wasteland.

I'm unsure why you are siding out Mana Crypt.  It's the best Mox in the deck.

I’ve sided out my Mana crypt against decks with Null Rod/Stony Silence before. I’ve also taken it out when I’ve sided all my ways to get rid of it out, Smokestack, welder, Karn, etc…  I don't know if this is right or not, but its what I've done in the past.

Wanted to keep this to a separate post

Here's what I've got thrown together.  I'll be playing it at Pandemonium Tomorrow.  I run 61 cards main.

Deck List.………

I'm not sure about the Ratchet bombs yet.  I got blown out by Oath at the last tournament, so I wanted something else besides Cages to fight against it a little bit.  Would Jester's Cap be better?  I've never won a game with a Cap activation.

I’ve never had good luck with Jester’s Cap. Its either been too slow or my opponent would have more than three win conditions in the deck. I think Cap technology is dated for today's meta, I'd probably just load up on Graffdiggers Cages to combat Oath.

Ghost Quarters come in against Dredge, Shops, Landstill and against decks that run very few basics.  I might go back to 3, because they were pretty awesome.

I haven’t tinkered around with Ghost Quarters in the board. It seems like a good idea so I may try out your technology this weekend.

I am going to try playing 3 Revokers in place of the 3 Thorns, then instead of 3 Tabernacles I am playing 3 Ghost Quarter since I only need to take out 4 Tangle Wires against Fish and in comes the 4 Dismembers. The last idea I have is cutting the Mana Vault and the 4th Metamorph for 2 more lands, they can be 2 Buried Ruins for utility, 2 City of Traitors for acceleration, a Ghost Quarter and a Buried Ruin or any combination of these. What do you think?

Since you’re running a stax list why not try out Rishadan Port. I know the card is super annoying to play against.

[msg67183]

To me, Rishadan Port seems alittle outdated. It hardly ever sees play now. Most Espresso lists swapped them for Factories. Buried Ruin seems like good utility with Crucible of Worlds recurring sacrificed artifacts and used Tangle Wires. I have no testing with Buried Ruin or Rishadan Port, these are just my thoughts.

[Bill Copes]

Quote from: Bill Copes on Yesterday at 12:33:36 PM
I'm unsure why you are siding out Mana Crypt.  It's the best Mox in the deck.

I’ve sided out my Mana crypt against decks with Null Rod/Stony Silence before. I’ve also taken it out when I’ve sided all my ways to get rid of it out, Smokestack, welder, Karn, etc…  I don't know if this is right or not, but its what I've done in the past.

100 % Correct, sir.  I'd do the same things as well.  I just don't see those cards played much around here too much, so I don't necessarily recall these cases.

---
I ended up going 2-2 at Pandemonium.  I lost to Mr. Lessard to turn 1 Jace on the play, game one.  Lock down game two.  Game three I lose to turn one Trygon Predator, when he has the answer to Metamorph.  He's down on perms, but I don't see a tangle wire to save my life.

Also lost to Dave in the mirror.  Game one, his deck did it better..  Game two, I mulled to a sketchy five, somehow ended up having slightly more game than I should have, but in the end forfeited when I was down to pretty much no mana sources and he cast a crucible.

I'm not sold on the ratchet bombs yet.  Revokers were also meh in the matches that I won (Landstill, AD Nauseum).  Not sure on those, either.

[msg67183]

Maze of Ith could also be the main deck land because it answers BSC, is uncounterable, also beats half of Landstill's win cons, Revoker answers the other. This list is starting to seem very awesome.

[msg67183]

Now that I think about it, Maze of Ith combined with Tabernacle seems like a better lock than Dismembers for tge sideboard. Would taking out the Dismembers and putting in 1 Maze of Ith and 3 Tabernacles along with the 2 Maze of Ith main deck sound like a good idea?

[jyuj]

Now that I think about it, Maze of Ith combined with Tabernacle seems like a better lock than Dismembers for the sideboard. Would taking out the Dismembers and putting in 1 Maze of Ith and 3 Tabernacles along with the 2 Maze of Ith main deck sound like a good idea?

Hey, Cool list. Here is what I have been fooling around with playing Espresso STAX. I put my list in with yours so you can see the changes. Here is my reasoning with some thoughts on your other options that have been mentioned.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
**Ghost Quarter**
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 **2** Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 **3** Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Karn, Silver Golem
**2 Steel Hellkite**

Sideboard:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 **3** Tormod's Crypt
4 **2** Dismember
**2 Duplicant**
**Triskelion**
**BatterSkull**
**2 Relic Of Progen**
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Lets talk about the lands and fast mana first. Factory is good right now, and I think it is the better option over Rishadan Port. Port shines in a meta where spells with 4 CMC or higher are commonly being played. Ports are great at delaying those big spells and keeping your opponents locked out of a color. Ports also are great in the workshop mirrors because they can stop workshops from being taped in a main phase, cutting off mana better than a waste or strip. The problem is, not that many 4 CMC spells are being played and the key spell that is seeing a lot of play, Jace TMS, can be dealt with by a Factory. There are more creature decks being played in general, so I agree with the choice of Factory over Port. I would recommend putting in a 19th land. This land can be a City of Traders or a Ghost Quater, depending on what you are expecting to see. Does your meta have lots of Workshops and Dredge, than I would recommend the Ghost Quarter.

I would take out the mana vault because of the rise of mental misstep. I know that it is really unlucky to get your vault hit with mental misstep (Just unlucky as dropping Chalice of the Void on 1, then drawing vault) but in general you want to try and "turn off" as much cards as possible. Fluster Storm/Mindbreak trap/Mental misstep, these are cards that you want to be dead and usually are. If you add in a Ghost Quater or City of Traders than you will not even drop your mana count from 27.

Just a small change in the main to the lock pieces and creatures. I take out 1 Thorn and 1 Metamorph and add in the main 2 Steel Hellkites. This is a tech that I love but it is unconventional. The minimal change I think you should make, which is also the safe/tried and true change is remove 1 Metamorph for another Karn, bringing the total to 3. 3 is the most common amount of Karn that are played in Espresso. You never want to see more than 1 but Karn usually gets killed soon after it hits the board so drawing 2 of them during a single game is not a bad thing. Now to my tech of 2 Steel Hellkite in the main. I love this change because Steel Hellkite can act as a slower Karn, but more powerful after the turn it comes in. Here is what I mean. Karn is amazing because it does so many things. It lets you activate all your lock pieces adding on the board commonly 9 power, and 5 of this power has pseudo haste (Karn 4, and lets say a Sphere of Resistance 2 and Crucible of worlds 3, this is a very typical board position) kills fast mana at instant speed, can block a majority of creatures played in vintage and can eat your own fast mana to kill bridges in dredge or stop the bleeding from a mana crypt. This can all be done the turn Karn comes into play. Now other things can do what Karn does, but nothing else can do all of them. Steel Hellkite can do the first three, add a lot of power on to the board, eat fast mana and has a nice body for blocking, especially flyers! Steel Hellkite is slower because you have to swing and connect to eat moxen but you get the added bonus that you can remove permanents with other CMC than 0. Steel Hellkite will usually bring similar amount of power to the board because karn will just get blocked reducing the damage to 0. Where with Steel Hellkite if you move into an attack phase with him still on the board you are, most of the time, swinging into clear skies. I would not play Steel Hellkite over Karn, but I think that if you can get to the next turn after you have resolved Karn or Hellkite, Hellkite is stronger and fulfills the key roles that Karn does. There are also a few other small things, but they are marginal like you can have two Hellkites at the same time on the board

Now to the Sideboard. The Espresso sideboard has two main jobs, #1 Win game 2 and 3 VS dredge and #2 have tools to win the Workshops mirror. The sideboard also needs to be able to deal with the few commonly played silver bullets to a shops build. (Goblin Welder, Trygon Predator, ect...)

Dredge
To win VS Dredge you need to have at least 8 dedicated dredge hate. After the standard 4 Grafdigger's Cage, I like to play 3 tormods Crypt and 2 Relic Of Progen. This bumps my dedicated hate up to 9. Triskelion and Batterskull are not the best but they can come in to help out with the match up. This is how I board,
Out                                                          In
4xSmokeStack                                            4xGrafdiggers Cage
4xTanglewire                                              3xTormod's Crypt
1xMana crypt                                              2xRelic Of Progen
2xChalice Of The Void                                  1xTriskelion
                                                                1xBatterskull

You take out the Mana Crypt because you are taking out 4 ways you have to kill it. You take out the chalice of the void because dredge is playing Ingot Chewer and you don't want to land a Cage, then a chalice on 1, to have your Cage get Chewed and your own chalice on 1 stopping you from landing another Cage. Most of the dredge pilots have been using Chewer, so chalice is bad. I would take out the other two chalice of the void but there is nothing else to bring in.

WorkShops, non-color , meaning Espresso/Martello/MetalWorker

On The Play
out                                            In
4xSphereOfResistance                   2xDuplicant
2xThorn of A                               2xDismember
1xTrinisphere                               1xTriskelion                                    
                                                 1xBatterskull  
                                                 1xRelic Of Progen
On The Draw
out                                            In
4xSphereOfResistance                   2xDuplicant
2xThorn of A                               2xDismember
1xTrinisphere                               1xTriskelion                                    
1xChalice Of The Void                   1xBatterskull  
                                                 2xRelic Of Progen

[msg67183]

While I think your list is nice and you have good explinations for your choices, my current list is going to be updated to the original post. Let me know what you think.

[msg67183]

Finalized list posted in original post.

[jyuj]

Finalized list posted in original post.

I like the main change of putting in Revokers. There are a few tensions that I am finding with the list right now. I am not sure that it is a good idea to move under 2 Karns. I was only playing 2 Karns because I had the 2 Steel Hellkites main deck, so I was really playing more. Revokers are kinda like tiny Karns (from the first post they kinda do what Karn does) I think you need to find a way to run 3 Karns (or 2 Karns, 1 Steel Hellkite) and keep 3 Revokers in the list. I am not sure what you can cut though. (You cannot cut a Smokestack) Let me know what you think is the best card to cut. Even if you disagree with running 3 Karns, I still would like to see what would be the card you think should be cut. I was thinking the best solution might be to move 1 of the crucible of the worlds to the sideboard. Not sure how good this is with playing 4 smokestacks. =\

I have a hate/love relationship with the Revokers  

[msg67183]

I know this may seem completely messed up, but what do you guys think about taking out Trinisphere for a 3rd Thorn of Amethyst? Trinisphere doesn't stack with spheres and is only a one of. On the other hand it can steal games IF in your opener. I would like to see some arguments thrown here for and against Trinisphere, let me know your thoughts.

[Prospero]

I know this may seem completely messed up, but what do you guys think about taking out Trinisphere for a 3rd Thorn of Amethyst? Trinisphere doesn't stack with spheres and is only a one of. On the other hand it can steal games IF in your opener. I would like to see some arguments thrown here for and against Trinisphere, let me know your thoughts.

No, no, no.

You cut Trinisphere from a Shop deck, POTENTIALLY, when you have maxed out on Spheres/Thorns, and you have a full complement of Metamorphs.  You're playing a completely different strategy at that point.  But, if you think about it, that kind of strategy is going to make casting cards like Smokestack impossible.  There are Shop decks where it's correct not to run Trinisphere; this isn't one of them.  Trinisphere is one of the most powerful cards in the deck.  You weaken Espresso by cutting it.  

The last Espresso list that I was toying with, before I put down the cards for 2012, was this:

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Smokestack
3 Karn, Silver Golem

1 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland

Sideboards are a product of metagames, and giving you my exact board would be a waste of time.  Depending on the metagame you're going to bounce between some amount of Dredge hate (Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Tabernacles, Ghost Quarters), creature hate (Dismember, Ratchet Bomb, Serrated Arrows, Duplicant, Maze of Ith), and miscellaneous stuff (Crucibles for Shops/Landstill, Hellkite(s) for a little bit of everything (Dredge, Shops on the play, dumb creature decks, etc.).  There are more cards than that, but that's most of what I've used in the last year.  

Also, to clear up another point that seems to be misunderstood; Tabernacles do their heavy lifting against Dredge and Shops.  They are not a card that is going to beat Tarmogoyf decks.  If you have NOTHING better to board in, having a few in there is alright, but don't count on them to win you a match like that.  You haven't dealt with the actual threat; the creature on the board.  If they've got a Trygon Predator that you haven't answered, the joke is on you.

It's a very simple, straightforward Espresso list.  If you understand order, and you know the stack, you'll be fine.  I would really love to see some innovation and work in Shops that didn't come from three guys in New York.

[Twaun007]

I know this may seem completely messed up, but what do you guys think about taking out Trinisphere for a 3rd Thorn of Amethyst? Trinisphere doesn't stack with spheres and is only a one of. On the other hand it can steal games IF in your opener. I would like to see some arguments thrown here for and against Trinisphere, let me know your thoughts.

No, no, no.

You cut Trinisphere from a Shop deck, POTENTIALLY, when you have maxed out on Spheres/Thorns, and you have a full complement of Metamorphs.  You're playing a completely different strategy at that point.  But, if you think about it, that kind of strategy is going to make casting cards like Smokestack impossible.  There are Shop decks where it's correct not to run Trinisphere; this isn't one of them.  Trinisphere is one of the most powerful cards in the deck.  You weaken Espresso by cutting it. 

I don't think you necessarily weaken the Workshop archetype buy cutting Trinisphere.  I haven't used it since it doesn't stack with the other SoR's, but I was wondering, what's your criteria of whether Trinisphere should be included or shouldn't be in a Workshop deck? I think it could lead to some interesting discussion.
 

Also, to clear up another point that seems to be misunderstood; Tabernacles do their heavy lifting against Dredge and Shops.  They are not a card that is going to beat Tarmogoyf decks.  If you have NOTHING better to board in, having a few in there is alright, but don't count on them to win you a match like that.  You haven't dealt with the actual threat; the creature on the board.  If they've got a Trygon Predator that you haven't answered, the joke is on you.

Tabernacle doesn't immediately answer Trygon, Goyf, and friends, but it does create a big speed bump against the creature onslaught. I mean, sometimes all you need is a turn or two for your other support cards to eat away at your opponents board. Other reasons I like Tabernacle are because it can effect multiple cards and it's somewhat uncounterable.

I can agree with Prospero though, it's quite lackluster when your opponent is just bashing with a singleton Trygon and you don't have a Tangle Wire out. Of course, that's where Maze of Ith shines.

I would really love to see some innovation and work in Shops that didn't come from three guys in New York.

You know there's a Workshop Think Tank constantly brewing stuff up in Cleveland.

[Phele]

As far as I remember there is this small think tank called europe where people show up with pretty innovative MUD lists for quite some time now ...

[msg67183]

I agree, I think a discussion about Trinisphere in Espresso would be very nice. It would also give me some insight to Workshop decks in general, being I have only been playing Shops since January. 6 of those months were without tournaments.

[madmanmike25]

I would really love to see some innovation and work in Shops that didn't come from three guys in New York.

That's a very myopic comment.  I'll be completely honest here too, the last "innovation" I have seen regarding Shop decks would be decks with Trading Post and Buried Ruin performing well.  Everything else is way to obvious for anyone (or any 3 players) to take credit for.  I'm actually curious now as to what cards these 3 players claim to have pioneered for Stax.

A Stax deck will look like a Stax deck despite any other names tacked on.  There won't be too many differences, or you are most likely playing an aggro deck at that point.

For anything totally mind blowing to be added to a Shop deck, we need new printings.  Otherwise, we have all seen it before.

[vaughnbros]

I agree, I think a discussion about Trinisphere in Espresso would be very nice. It would also give me some insight to Workshop decks in general, being I have only been playing Shops since January. 6 of those months were without tournaments.

Let me forward you to another post here on the mana drain that talks about cutting black lotus: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40566.0  This should show the whole its a bad top deck argument is kind of weak, because so is black lotus.

There is a reason trinisphere is restricted and its not because they are good in multiples.  It's because workshops mana base is really the only mainstream one that can handle its effect.  Trinisphere on the play as shops is almost always the best card to have in your opening hand.  Clearly you are not going to be replacing it with a better early lock piece so you also have to ask what are you gaining by cutting trinisphere? 

1 Thorn? Trinisphere rarely has any significant effect on what you can cast whereas thorn affects your own deck making your smokestacks, crucibles, wires harder to cast.  Trinisphere also makes creatures like ingot chewer cost more.
1 Phyrexian Metamorph?  This is usually like a slightly more versatile sphere effect.  At 3 mana + 2 life + needing something relevant on the board it definitely has serious drawbacks. 

There are certain cards you just don't cut.  Trinisphere is one of them.

[Twaun007]

 
There are certain cards you just don't cut.  Trinisphere is one of them.

I remember people saying the same thing about Balance in 5C Stax.

If I remember correctly, Nick blasted his way though a tournament a few years back without Balance.