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« on: October 25, 2012, 06:40:38 pm » |
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I've been using him in Burning Tendrils/Long lately with varying degrees of success, though I'd like to hear about him in a general sense too. I've always admired the card and wanted it to be good, but it always felt lacking compared to Jace. Or, for one more mana you could play big Tezz and just win the game outright.
I think he actually does compare favorably to Jace in certain situations though, in that:
a) He doesn't require UU.
This is pretty relevant for my build, as being able to play him off a Ritual + blue source is nice. His +1 doesn't generate as much of an advantage as Jacestorm, but he does instantly replace the card disadvantage from Ritual if your artifact count is high enough (which it is in Long with the Mox Opals and Chrome Moxes, which reminds me - his ability to remove to Chrome Mox for UB is often relevant).
b) He can be a better "oops I win" than Jace in certain situations
After being disrupted, I'd much rather drop an Agent of Bolas than a Jace (or any other similarly costed card). Jace can try to dig for spells to get you back into the game, but a resolved Tezz will actually end the game in 2 turns in many situations (cast him, animate a Mox, swing for 5, next turn animate again and swing for 10 more). I've fought through a ton of anti-combo hate simply by casting Tezz and ignoring Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, newly drawn counters, etc.
When someone has a Null Rod or Stony Silence down, Tezz keeps your artifacts as live draws and can let you quickly shift gears to a different gameplan instead of crumbling to Wastelands + no artifact mana.
c) He holds down the fort better than Jace
Jace can protect himself from being attacked with his -1 ability, but Tezz is often more resilient (against non-fliers of course). He can make a blocker to protect himself from a Bob and then start digging for mana with his +1, or against something Fishy/aggro he can pump out multiple 5/5s to muck up the board while you wait for a bomb to end the game.
I wish I kept better track of my testing results, because I'd say around 20-30% of my games with Long lately have been won as a direct result of Agent of Bolas. The majority of those are in situations where I would otherwise not have won with a "better" card in that slot, so he is more of a comeback/anti-disruption card than something that advances your main plan of comboing out (though he does still have a small role in this with his ability to dig for mana).
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median
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 08:38:35 pm » |
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I've always liked tezz, agent of bolas in decks with orchard. I feel stupid playing a jace, brainstorming and then having it die a turn or two later. Paying four mana for a brainstom isn't on the power level of vintage. Paying 4 mana for 2-3 5/5's is, especially if they have haste (I would say this is on par to an early EtW for enough to win but not a high number, and doesn't need storm). I agree that in decks like long he is a monster because you can ritual him out on turn one from a mox + land + ritual and have a 5/5 attacking on turn two and be building up card advantage and more attackers from there. I really wish he had some defensive ability like jace's bounce though.
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« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 08:43:04 pm by median »
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He traded goats for artifacts, artifacts for cards, cards for life. In the end, he traded life for goats.
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Archae
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 09:01:35 pm » |
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I've been piloting a deck with Tezz2 since his release. I am not very experienced in terms of playing tournaments, but I playtest a ton; take my comments as you will.
Whether he is better in certain situations than Jace or Big Tezz really depends on the deck, so a let's talk about that. As you mentioned, Tezz2 has UB instead of UU (in the case of Jace/Big Tezz). He is also more aggressive in nature than Jace, but more attrition focused than Big Tezz. This means we are looking at a deck which doesn't want to cast as many UU spells or generate big mana (looking at you, Mana Drain). We are therefore shying away from Big Blue and control/combo, which means we are aggressive in theory but not all out along one path.
It is tempting to think of using Tezz2 in a control deck as he is better at closing out than Jace, turning all your artifact accelerants into threats that dodge Rod/Silence. However, at that point, why not just play Big Tezz and win the game? Also, Hurkly's hits you harder, since it means Tezz's loyalty has dropped and all your threats need to be replayed and re-made into threats. This means we are not looking for Tezz2 to be a late game bomb, but a much more early game aggressive tactic, supported by creatures that continue the attack.
However, Tezz2 is not aggro, since we need to make his +1 contribute to our game plan. This means back-breaking artifacts that can also turn into creatures to seal the deal. Thus, Time-Vault is not where we want to be (at least not the main win-con - at that point Jace and Big Tezz seem better suited), since it does not animate well. Personally, I think Tezz2 likes creatures like Baleful Strix against aggro, which mucks up the battlefield and is +CA, and can also be turned into a threat in the air to close out fast. Against combo and control, we need to find similar cards that shut down the opponents game plan and can then be turned into threats themselves. Tezz2 likes Grafdigger's Cage and similar cards in this respect. This puts the opponent on the back foot by keeping them off their path to victory while pushing you closer to yours (Tezz's -1 and -4).
This is just my take on Tezz, AoB; I think he is a tremendous card, but needs a deck that supports him well. In other cases, Jace will be more of a swiss-army knife and will therefore be a better solution. That said, Jace did not make the cut for my deck, since it is built more around Tezz2.
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« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 05:01:55 pm by Archae »
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 05:53:20 am » |
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I have always liked the thought of Tezz 2 and Ethersworn Canonist, but I've never seriously built anything.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 04:01:26 pm » |
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Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is definitely super powerful from what I've played of him, better than Jace in the right deck. The major thing that limits his play ability though is that you need an extremely high artifact count to make him good. His +1 reads get a mana source usually, unless your build plays other artifacts. (with Jace or top this can be extremely powerful addition to your card advantage) His -1 says turn an artifact, usually a relatively useless one, into a 5/5 haste. (this makes him awful with things like forbidden orchard) His -4 can easily be the death blow after hes been on the table a few turns. Like all planeswalkers he needs to be on the table for a few turns though in order to gain value. For this reason I don't think hes good in burning long. That deck really needs to win by turn 4 or you more than likely lost. This card really doesnt further you to that point.
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median
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2012, 12:43:44 am » |
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His -1 says turn an artifact, usually a relatively useless one, into a 5/5 haste. (this makes him awful with things like forbidden orchard)
What planeswalker would you use with orchard?
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He traded goats for artifacts, artifacts for cards, cards for life. In the end, he traded life for goats.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2012, 10:12:43 am » |
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His -1 says turn an artifact, usually a relatively useless one, into a 5/5 haste. (this makes him awful with things like forbidden orchard)
What planeswalker would you use with orchard? Is there something thats forcing you to play a planeswalker with your orchards? None of the currently played planeswalkers are synergistic with orchard. To answer your question I personally wouldn't be playing orchard, but if I was I wouldn't be playing any planeswalkers in my deck.
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Adan
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 02:20:00 pm » |
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I actually played TezzBolas in TurboTezz (I netdecked the list of Lorenzo Fedeli) and he was quite ballin'. In TurboTezz, he plays a similar role like Jace TMS. However, you can drop them simultaneously. Jace-BS, then putting the crap away with TezzBolas' +1 ability is insane.
It a bit like having 2 JaceTMS on board at the same time. But a fast TezzBolas can mean business since he is a 3 Turn clock: drop Tezz and beat with a Mox for 5, the turn afterwards you transform a 2nd Mox and swing for 10, bringing your opponent down to 5. And he somehow has to get rid of the 2 Moxen AND the Tezz.
If he makes sense in your deck, you can definitely play him (and if you are too broke to afford Jaces, he is a good substitute). Although that would be ridiculous in Vintage when you have P9s and so on.
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Daenyth
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 09:52:49 am » |
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Adan's experience is the same as mine, using him in a typical jace-bob-timevault deck. He's also fantastic null rod insurance since a 5/5 trumps about everything except ooze and goyf, which both die to doom blade or deathmark or perish
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Team #olddrafts4you -- losing games since 2004
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 12:55:25 pm » |
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Comparing Tezz2 to Jace2 is a bit of a mistake. Not only do they fill different roles they are not mutually exclusive, in that you can run both it you really want to.
I have long wondered when he's going to start seeing more play, as he really is quite strong. Tezz1 does basically win the game in a turn, but if played correctly so does tezz2 if your deck is keyed to do so.
I think the trick with him might actually be spell snare and Misstep. Almost everything your deck will have to be on the look out for will be 1-2 mana stuff that shuts off your table or artifacts.
Between Tezz, blue power, black power, Jewelry+Opal, sol ring, trinket mage, counters, maybe even thoughtcast to just spam more, you have a very aggressive list that is able to fight through hate, play counters to stay in the game, and just alpha strike on tezz and win. And since your already heavily vested in brown, you can still run tinker, vault/key, and blightsteel as an alt win.
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John Jones
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2012, 01:55:23 pm » |
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@Median I agree though I had to reread what was written because I thought you said that brainstorm for 4 mana was bad but were failing to realize it was every turn via jace but then understood when I thought about the tokens, though I have to say, if you're tapping orchard a bunch of times before you play jace, something is wrong and you probabaly should have mulliganed into something with fetches and trops or T1 Oath with T2 Backup (recall, another oath etc,Upkeep Vamp->Recall/oath etc) or T1 oath with instant back up (FoW, Flusterstorm, MM etc). That being said, anytime you're willing to pay 4 mana for a Jace only to have it killed next turn by 3 tokens, you should probably fateseal them/you. If it is more than 3 tokens you're in a losing position anyway and chances are you really need to find an oath//yawgs//late game luck sack draw to win. If so, a 4 mana brainstorm may just get you there while saving your life for a few turns as a meat shield.
@Archae --) In my experience, against rod decks, you don't have enough time to ramp tezz1 to 4 artifacts and kill. This was mostly tested against noble fish however I can see similar pitfalls against any stompy type deck. Currently in the NE it would be that dreaded merfolk deck, which is a pain to play against might I add for any deck running islands.
Now I will say that Both Tezz1&2 can be both aggressive and controlling in the same deck.Both cards can
Hurkyl's doesn't hit harder for tezz2 it hits harder for tezz1.. ie ramp to 5-6 pop, hurkyls you lose your attack phase. Guess what now you have to reramp tezz1 into oblivion when you can simply go mox ramp into 5/5, pass. Now, while you may not want tezz2 to be a late game bomb, it still is, especially in a stalemate situation. I like the idea for 2 baleful. I'm not sure how good that card is, but I haven't found a home yet for it.
@Protoaddict You made me think of an Idea...hopefully it tests well. If it does, you will see the list in the top 8 of the next NEV.
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My thoughts on tezz are as follows.
If you want to run Tezz1...You must also run TVK. From that you must also decide to run 1-3 Tezz1 depending on deck speed. 1 For controlling-3 for threat dense and quick. Regardless of the speed, you also want 4 FOW and 3-4 Drain. I prefer sticking monoblue with either a splash of black, red, or white. Do not go 3 colors, you do not need it. To be honest, I still think MUC is the best version. Followed by White splash due to SB options, Black splash for Tutoring (ie heavy fish meta plan is usually Tinker+Bot Backup ASAP), and Red Splash for AntiBlue&Shops Meta. If you're running TVK and Tezz1 I would also run 1-2 Grim monolith as it gets around misstep, is generally not countered, and allows you to ramp easily into turn 2-3 Tezz1. At this point, you most likely want 2 Vkeys Main as it untaps monoliths, tops, and is for some reason MM a lot. I'm not sure why, I think it is because they see key and are like zombg TV is coming soon. RAGE COUNTER!...only for me to drop a top or another Vkey.
If you want to run Tezz2, I'm not really sure as of right now. I keep trying out lists with him, and he is decent and all, but as for deck building options, i'm not sure if there is a standard other than running 5 moxen, lotus, crypt, sol, and possibly Petal + Mana Vault. To be honest if you're dedicated black, i would heavily consider 2 top, 4 bob (I think this should be a nobrainer) , 2 Snapcaster/1 Will 1 snapcaster should be next depending on where you want to take it. I favor the 2 Snapcasters now. 1 Necrogen Spellbomb (good against Salvagers and Snapcaster decks, AWA dredge), usually the 59th-60th slot for these reasons esp..if you're running Tmage, Maybe vamp and demonic, but its not a place for TVK so i'm not sure if it's necessary. It is also not a place for tinker. I think your main goal is usually to play draw go for turns 1-3 keeping mana up to bluff counters//counterstuff, then in turns 3-5 drain something, play a tezz2 and swing for 5 and get the clock started. This is coming from a Turbotezz perspective though.
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Team You Just Lost
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Archae
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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2012, 02:46:20 pm » |
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John Jones, I wasn't saying that the play with Tezz2 against Rod is to get to 4 and pop Tezz. Also, in the case of Tezz1, a hurkly's usually means recast your hand next turn and win. A hurkyl's against Tezz2 is worse I think. Mauybe I'm not seeing what you're saying.
In my list with Tezz2, I do not actually run all 5 moxen or many of the cards you are assuming need to be there. Then again, my build may be far from optimal and/or far from where your intuition is.
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John Jones
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2012, 06:18:22 pm » |
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Yeah I assume the game plan is to make 5/5s. Also I think we are in agreement I am saying for tezz1 you ultimate and tezz2 you make single creatures. Tvk under rod doesn't work. Hurkyls if you ultimate tezz1 is worse if you get tvk its not that bad. Hurkyls against tezz2 is similar to unsummon. What's your list look like?
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Team You Just Lost
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evouga
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 07:11:04 pm » |
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His -1 says turn an artifact, usually a relatively useless one, into a 5/5 haste. (this makes him awful with things like forbidden orchard)
What planeswalker would you use with orchard? Jace works fine in Oath.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 07:18:44 pm » |
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@Protoaddict You made me think of an Idea...hopefully it tests well. If it does, you will see the list in the top 8 of the next NEV.
I hope it works out. If it does it may be time for me to invest in some blue power because out side of vintage Tezz2 is my favorite walker.
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serracollector
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 07:34:10 pm » |
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remember also that tinker + tezz2 is gg if u run myr battlesphere.
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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