Human Ingenuity

[brianpk80]

That's all correct.  The deck has high variance like a broken blue deck and can just randomly win on turn 1 or 2, and this has happened several times in events.  And the flip side is the higher susceptibility to hate decks.  I was completely blown out by fast Null Rod + Moon on Saturday.  And also, the one time I sided in a robot Tinker target, it of course flipped to Bob when I was seated for a match in the same area that Bob flipped over Blightsteel the last time I ran one maindeck.  That part of the Player's Guild is cursed for Tinkerbots I swear.  

I wonder why Brian isn't building a more aggro/denial/control version. Not to play in the events he is going, but just to throw in a list for those who have a more aggressive playing style. I would be delighted to look into his suggestions/list.

I did run a Vault Human deck in the more traditional vein w. Thalia and Wastelands two months ago.  The deck itself I thought was good and perhaps better than the Abolisher lists (which have more appeal on account of their "fun" factor and ability to enable more memorable experiences like blasting Cavern Abolisher into a Standstill, playing Vault and Demonic Tutor ftw).  The one day I played the more denial based Vault list was the day I didn't eat breakfast and made terrible play mistakes all day.  Lack of food = functionally braindead I guess.  I came in last place, after wasting an Orchard and playing a game deciding spell without declaring combat, leaving him just enough mana to Drain the spell.  I also accidentally reminded him to use Memory's Journey before using his Griselbrand.  So I can't blame the deck for the failure when the real culprit was me being an idiot that day.    

[Protoaddict]

Does this seem viable to anyone? The ability is unique enough that it seemed like it should at least be looked at as token generation is not something the human deck really has and a 1/1 deathtoucher deals with a lot of junk.

[brianpk80]

It looks like a card that's relevant in Shop/aggro matches but negligible v. everything else.  For token generation, I'd recommend Mayor of Avabruck.

[brianpk80]

Just a little update to how things stand for Humans right now.

I played a Thalia Tinker deck at Champs going 5-3 until the last match where I was thoroughly routed by Matt Klinkhammer's Mayor Fish deck.  I never quite realized how brutal the deck was while piloting it but playing against it opened my eyes especially to Mayor of Avabruck itself which was a devastatingly fast clock.  When piloting the deck, I would occasionally be annoyed that the Mayor didn't have utility in the way Bob, Thalia, Notion Thief, and the other guys can screw up an opponent's game plan or produce card advantage that does so (Wasteland, Stony Silence, etc.)  But faced with it on the other side of the table, I found it very powerful and an uncomfortably fast clock.  While outside after one match, I also overheard some very angry guy complaining about Mayor of Avabruck; presumably he lost to it and felt it was an outrage that he lost to a deck that in his words "was not a real Vintage deck."  Guy must have been living under a rock this year.  Congrats to Matt for placing first with Mayor Fish last month and now doing so well at Vintage Champs. 

The Ophiomancer referenced above is actually quite good.  I dismissed it too quickly and in testing found it was a great way to stabilize against ground Assaults, particularly in the Shop match.  What sold me was facing a turn 2 Golem + Wurmncoil in testing and throwing out some Moxen to get Ophiomancer into play and having that single move stall the entire board state for the entire game until I inevitably won.  It's a card to look at in defensive builds that want to protect Planeswalkers and survive ground onslaughts; its deterrent effect makes it comparable to Moat.  It's definitely a card to keep in mind when thinking of value 3CC Humans, a la Trinket Mage, Eternal Witness, Imperial Recuiter, Sin Collector and so forth. 

Finally, the Hydra we were all discussing made a Top 8 appearance at Bazaar of Moxen with 2 copies in the sideboard of Almost Blue.  That card is quite good.  That's all for now.  -B

[nedleeds]

The highest placing (unpowered) people null rod deck at Vintage Worlds was 30th. We built it to go for unpowered and ran 4 x ESG, Lotus Petal. He ended up moneying in both powered and unpowered. He lost to RUG on camera (despite his opponent making several mistakes). Also to shops on the draw I believe. No caverns to stabilize the mana a little with basics and play more Abrupt Decay.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/eternal13vintage/standfin

[Guli]

I was cheering for the esg/petal GWB beat player when watching the game

I do find it a bit too 'all in' these days to commit so much for a turn 1 Gaddock or Thalia. I believe he should have run Edric to replenish the cards lost for early acceleration.

[brianpk80]

The highest placing (unpowered) people null rod deck at Vintage Worlds was 30th. We built it to go for unpowered and ran 4 x ESG, Lotus Petal. He ended up moneying in both powered and unpowered. He lost to RUG on camera (despite his opponent making several mistakes). Also to shops on the draw I believe. No caverns to stabilize the mana a little with basics and play more Abrupt Decay.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/eternal13vintage/standfin

Congrats on the showing.  

[nedleeds]

To be clear, I didn't pilot it. I placed 80th on 9strip shops. The pilot was Shawn French who doesn't have an account here. He lost the camera match despite a few errors by the RUG player. The power of Lightning Bolt backed up by MM is tough to handle.

[brianpk80]

To be clear, I didn't pilot it. I placed 80th on 9strip shops. The pilot was Shawn French who doesn't have an account here. He lost the camera match despite a few errors by the RUG player. The power of Lightning Bolt backed up by MM is tough to handle.

Yes.  The increase in creature hate along with the more dedicated anti-aggro developments in Workshop are the main reasons I started to look into Time Vault and other kills as a counter-tactic.  Congratulations to Shawn. 

[Guli]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Porcelain Legionnaire
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stony Silence
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Karakas
2 Trygon Predator
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Rest in Peace

This is a list me and a Dutch fellow cockatrice user developed. It cuts black to add blue for power and edric. It has similar idea's with the ESG/Petal package.

[xouman]

Aren't caverns good enough now? One of the best things I liked most with your gwb humans version was caverns on human, that played really solid CC2 humans, uncounterable with the land in play.

Nevertheless I like all the options but legionnaire. I find it akward in this deck, but I imagine it could be that kind of card that makes sense once you play it, blocking fast aggro decks without tarmos (other fishes, muds, etc). Most other creatures are great.

[Guli]

Aren't caverns good enough now? One of the best things I liked most with your gwb humans version was caverns on human, that played really solid CC2 humans, uncounterable with the land in play.

Nevertheless I like all the options but legionnaire. I find it akward in this deck, but I imagine it could be that kind of card that makes sense once you play it, blocking fast aggro decks without tarmos (other fishes, muds, etc). Most other creatures are great.

It is not a human deck. It was in response to nedleeds, he made a reference to the unpowered hatebear deck that placed top 30 in champs. If I would make a powered hatebear deck, it would be like the one I just posted. I like how legionnaire can go on the offensive and be very good with Thalia when you are playing defense while your Aven flies over. First strike and Flying are good with Edric.

[bax]

I like the maindeck of this build a lot, it is very similar to what i am testing since a while (i was never sold on the idea of human, i still think GW is more conistant). It is very solid, only issue i can see it that you might flood often with this with no benefit (no KotR, only one Conopy).

I would pack 2 caverns in any case, and play 3 cage in the maindeck lowering by one the number of Talia, Qasali and Porcelain.

The side i would do it entirely different (i woudl have 3 slots more as the cage would be maindeck already).

But all in all the Leggionaire imho at the moment are the best offensive threat in GW)

[nedleeds]

I wouldn't play any of these decks without Dark Confidant. It's the only possible way to maintain parity and keep up your land drops. Edric is great when he gets going but with no Sylvan Library and no tutors as a 2 of there's a strong chance you won't see him in time. Actually I can't imagine not playing green necro either.

-Sean O'Brien

[StanleyAugust]

I think that the blue list is interesting and it's hard to argue with the raw power of Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. However, Dark Confidant is just so much better than Edric, and Deathrite Shaman is the nuts, so I find it hard to believe that GWU is better than GWB.

Also, I agree with bax that 3 Grafdigger's Cage should be an automatic inclusion main deck.

[Guli]

It is true that Dark confidant is strong. But in hatebears i like to get the reinforcements right away. Compare this for example, thalia and revoker in play with an opponent that is just building up mana holding a sweeper. To cast this sweeper he will need to tap out mostly and pass turn. I like edric here because it gives you fresh threats. Bob is too slow to give the reinforcements and you have to hold it in hand to 'play' around the sweeper. An explosives for example would take out thalia, revoker AND bob (if you cast it). But Edric would give you cards to rebuild your board and survive the explosives. Not to mention that Karakas is an important card to have around these days. Karakas could save Thalia, Teeg or Edric and contain the damage. I rather have a Recall or a Time Walk instead of Dark Confidant when playing hatebears. Immediate effect, immediate profit...

And a turn 1 Bob does not really fit the category of a play for 'hatebears' early on. It is a good play against some decks and I understand the power of the line. I have been doing nothing else than turn 1 bobs or turn 1 thalia for a long time now. But my follow ups are very midrange and controlling. This is the difference between humans and hatebears. Humans can 'solve' a problem, almost any problem. But hatebears goes for more multiple copies of the best wide range threats and needs to get in there faster with a thalia, teeg or aven. So in short, i think that hatebears should cast a hatebear on turn 1 and then follow it up with edric or tandem lookout to replenish the threats and get ready for a second wave. You need to anticipate that your stuff will get removed and sweeped multiple times.

I find Humans more solid and more able to convert a bad situation into a good one. Hatebears on the other hand can put up a lot more pressure early on and punishes the opponent if they don't sweep your board or at least kill some key creatures.