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Author Topic: Human Ingenuity  (Read 104457 times)
Guli
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« Reply #390 on: September 12, 2013, 04:34:00 am »

The Assassin is one to keep an eye on if Heroic is somehow easily enabled.  Darkblast is rather elegant.  The 2/1 is not "bad" per se; after all, there was a player Dave Feinstein winning tournaments with UW Fish maindecking Savannah Lions in the middle of the last decade.  The Human subtype is nice but the ability is incredibly narrow.  It may as well say Gain 1 life every time a Bird attacks you.  Possible room to explore if Painter/Grindstone ever becomes the rage in Humans, but still dubious.   
If you get Agent in play, you can quickly clear their board with Darkblast. Plays like darkblasting on your upkeep and then dredge Darkblast back followed by another darkblast in their turn is rather Brutal. Other Humans that cost 3 mana with the role of 'multiple creature removal' all require more energy. For example a Preacher or a Mangara. You would need to keep casting Mangara and use more mana. Preacher needs a sacrifice outlet which is more narrow than a Darkblast. Darkblast is a card on its own. And I think the Agent also is a card on its own because it has deaththouch and 3 power.


Other cards that might be interesting:

Fire/Ice would be interesting. You can ping one of their creatures and use the other ping to make them sacrifice another creature. Or if you want, you can tap your Agent to draw a card and make them sacrifice a creature. It is possible to play with just Fire, the card Forked Bolt does this. It is cheaper but more vulnerable to Mental Misstep.



Flame Fab would be a card that can work well with Life from The Loam or just convert the unnecessary lands in your hand into damage. It would be another way to keep in touch with the Heroic trigger using the Retrace mechanic.




Heroic is a pretty weak mechanic in how difficult it is the activate.  I don't think any of the triggers so far are worth going through hoops to achieve.  If the card is playable on its own right, which may be the case with Anax and Cymede, its a nice trick to have at your disposal, but the others are not powerful enough imo.
I can't say I disagree here. The mechanic will be useless most of the time. And there are cheaper options to have a 3/1 first striker and an edict effect or deathtouch guy.

Then there are the Aura's. I think Rancor is nice in this context. It has the potential to come back. I also like Keen Sense on the Agent. It clears the way for itself with the Edict trigger.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #391 on: September 12, 2013, 09:25:56 am »



Another day, another Human spoiled.

This guy has some interesting abilities. Expensive, but might have some late-game applications blinking Trinket Mage / Snapcaster Mage and otherwise facilitating a draw engine with his third ability.

The Power/Toughness are not too shabby either.

The whole "Fate Counter" thing makes it too slow though, in all likelihood. If it didn't require the "fate counter" activation to use its second and third abilities, it might be playable. As it is, it takes two turns to blink a creature or Skullclamp it.

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Guli
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« Reply #392 on: September 12, 2013, 09:54:24 am »

Instead of constantly posting new things, why not discuss some of the things posted already...


That Triad of Fates is bad. Slow, too small for 4, I don't like it.
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« Reply #393 on: September 13, 2013, 03:03:16 pm »

The fates guy is not bad if you also have the untap/flash human also in this set.  For 2 mana you can draw 2 cards every turn for "free" with them 2 cards out, or do wacky things with CiP humans.
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« Reply #394 on: September 13, 2013, 03:33:29 pm »

The fates guy is not bad if you also have the untap/flash human also in this set.  For 2 mana you can draw 2 cards every turn for "free" with them 2 cards out, or do wacky things with CiP humans.

No hes bad.  You have to tap him twice, pay 1B, and exile a creature you control to draw 2 cards.  Or tap him twice and pay 1W to get a comes into play effect.  That's bad.  There are a number of better draw engines.  For example Bob, and Shadowmage Infiltrator or even Mercurial Chemister, Civilized Scholar, and Thought Courier.

I'm not entirely sure this set has a single card that is good enough to make the cut in humans.  There are such a large number of options that the power level of the card needs to be pretty high to make the cut.  Anax and Cymede is the most promising as it should dominate the creature mirror match, though quite a few cards are already capable of doing this.
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Guli
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« Reply #395 on: September 13, 2013, 07:53:53 pm »

I think the most interesting card for the Cavern builds with access to red mana is this:



Reasons:

- Bolt, Plow and Decay do not work. Only dismember can 'trade' with it.
- Flying + Haste is better than just haste (compare to Exava)

Being a dragon and 5 mana is discouraging. I understand that. But right now they just could not print a creature with these strengths for 4 casting cost, that would be just too broken in other formats. So what I find important here is that I absolutely love all these abilities, they are my favorite ones in one creature (flying, haste, 4 toughness, pro white, +4 cc). I think 5 is a lot, so don't point that out to me, but I also think in this case that 5 mana is a good investment, you are getting a lot in return.
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« Reply #396 on: September 13, 2013, 07:55:39 pm »

I think the most interesting card for the Cavern builds with access to red mana is this:



Reasons:

- Bolt, Plow and Decay do not work. Only dismember can 'trade' with it.
- Flying + Haste is better than just haste (compare to Exava)

Being a dragon and 5 mana is discouraging. I understand that. But right now they just could not print a creature with these strengths for 4 casting cost, that would be just too broken in other formats. So what I find important here is that I absolutely love all these abilities, they are my favorite ones in one creature (flying, haste, 4 toughness, pro white, +4 cc)

Pretty sure Exava is just better than this.
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« Reply #397 on: September 13, 2013, 08:00:17 pm »

Being able to sidestep swords to plowshares and to fly over (race and kill PW's) instead of being chump-blocked are making me doubt that statement.
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #398 on: September 14, 2013, 01:52:12 am »

Meh, I think 5 mana is too much.
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Guli
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« Reply #399 on: September 14, 2013, 09:36:26 am »

Meh, I think 5 mana is too much.
Brian is casting Jace with Thalia. My opponents are casting Jace while I have a Thalia in play. It happens all the time. And I am not playing 17 or 18 lands anymore like I did in the past. All my recent decks have at least 20 or 21 lands and full acceleration with deathrite and noble. So I question this statement as well. Is 5 mana really too much for a deck with so many mana sources?
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« Reply #400 on: September 14, 2013, 11:08:23 am »








Maybe its time to make a dragon deck instead of humans then.....


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Guli
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« Reply #401 on: September 14, 2013, 11:13:49 am »

It is not about big dragons, Human does need a couple good mana sinks. I just would like the investment to be something that can not be removed easily and can take care of jace locks (jace + snaps/bobs/trinket/factories...). It is about complementing the existing shell with something that does well against their answers.

When playing decks that also have ground forces, that 1 big flyer just steals the game. This Dragon is going to be 5/5 or 6/6 with Nobles and Pridemages around. It is a fast clock.

What it all comes down to is that the Humans in Human decks are the ones that make the deck consistent. Thalia with Stony/Misstep/Cage are going to keep the combo and control decks busy, that is what it all comes down too. Slowing them down, locking them down. There is still need of a good prison or denial strategy against any blue deck, fish or not doesn't matter. The Dragon is that card that has the body and speed to speed things up while your 'denial' squad is doing their job. This is why Exava is so good with Thalia, Thalia is fragile, easy to get rid of, but it demands the attention of the opponent and it can be replaced fast (with 4 copies in the deck). Running a haste big fat boy that is the opposite of fragile makes sense.
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« Reply #402 on: September 14, 2013, 07:13:04 pm »



Would this card not be about perfect for these new Heroic Humans?  Its almost on color for 90% of the human decks, can be played with nobles/dr. shamans easily, and targets 3 times in 1 card no?  Make my assassin +3/+3 and u sac 3 creatures?  Or just buff out my first striker?   2 mana Ovverrun?  Draw 3 for 2 mana?  etc etc.  Seems like something worth testing.
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« Reply #403 on: September 15, 2013, 03:10:02 am »



Would this card not be about perfect for these new Heroic Humans?  Its almost on color for 90% of the human decks, can be played with nobles/dr. shamans easily, and targets 3 times in 1 card no?  Make my assassin +3/+3 and u sac 3 creatures?  Or just buff out my first striker?   2 mana Ovverrun?  Draw 3 for 2 mana?  etc etc.  Seems like something worth testing.
I can see this pump spell work in a dedicated Heroic list. It would be fun. To stay in the game, play Thalia and friends (chalice, stony, rod, misstep, ...).
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« Reply #404 on: September 15, 2013, 08:49:55 am »

Being able to sidestep swords to plowshares and to fly over (race and kill PW's) instead of being chump-blocked are making me doubt that statement.

Is Pro White really that important just for STP that you wanna stretch into 5 mana red dragons? I mean there are a bunch of black Humans that can be played off caverns that have Pro white and are really hard to block if you have extra mana because they pump and have first strike.
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« Reply #405 on: September 15, 2013, 09:33:29 am »

Being able to sidestep swords to plowshares and to fly over (race and kill PW's) instead of being chump-blocked are making me doubt that statement.

Is Pro White really that important just for STP that you wanna stretch into 5 mana red dragons? I mean there are a bunch of black Humans that can be played off caverns that have Pro white and are really hard to block if you have extra mana because they pump and have first strike.

I'm not entirely sure if this is true, but it seems like he wants a dude that is Bolt proof, STP proof, and Abrupt Decay proof, while also being Jace bounce proof having Haste.
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« Reply #406 on: September 15, 2013, 09:42:01 am »

Being able to sidestep swords to plowshares and to fly over (race and kill PW's) instead of being chump-blocked are making me doubt that statement.

Is Pro White really that important just for STP that you wanna stretch into 5 mana red dragons? I mean there are a bunch of black Humans that can be played off caverns that have Pro white and are really hard to block if you have extra mana because they pump and have first strike.
The mana base I run, and other human cavern versions, can get to 5 mana very fast. The decks that can prevent this are those who run Wasteland themselves. The decks that run wastelands are known; Workshop, Other 'fish' (bug, mirror, gw beats), Landstill. The only deck that can actually lock us is Workshop, in all the other match ups the games tend to go long and mana is usually at our disposal in large quantities. Against Workshop, the 'Exava slot or Dragon slot' is not meant to fight Workshop in the first place. This leads to the conclusion (for me) that the 5cc is not a concern in the match ups were you want the Dragon on the board. The pro white will matter, just like the 4/4 will matter in another match up. It is about having a card in play that is good against more than 1 archetype. So your question : 'is pro white really that important for stp?' should be answered now. The power of the card is that it can hold its ground against multiple archetypes/decks and that we don't care about the high casting cost in the match ups were we want to use its abilities. Flying + Haste (= Anti Jace), Pro stp, pro bolt and pro Decay in one card for a castable cost makes me want to talk about this card.

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« Reply #407 on: September 15, 2013, 09:43:28 am »

Being able to sidestep swords to plowshares and to fly over (race and kill PW's) instead of being chump-blocked are making me doubt that statement.

Is Pro White really that important just for STP that you wanna stretch into 5 mana red dragons? I mean there are a bunch of black Humans that can be played off caverns that have Pro white and are really hard to block if you have extra mana because they pump and have first strike.

I'm not entirely sure if this is true, but it seems like he wants a dude that is Bolt proof, STP proof, and Abrupt Decay proof, while also being Jace bounce proof having Haste.
Yes, this is spot on. I would have liked it more if it was 4cc, but as it is right now, I do think it deserved some discussion.
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« Reply #408 on: September 15, 2013, 07:08:28 pm »

Here's a mini-report and small primer on the ideas in the version of Humans I was working on this past month and took to T8 in Lancaster yesterday.

Grand Vault (60)



Artifacts (13):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Critters (16):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Trinket Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Notion Thief
1 Eternal Witness

Instants/Sorceries (7/4):
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Mental Misstep
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (18):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest (I subbed a W. Heath at this event though cause it was nowhere to be found)
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
2 Mindbreak Trap (Storm, Broken Blue, some Shop)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Dredge, Oath, Broken Blue)
2 Rest in Peace (Dredge, BUG Fish)
1 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Gush, Snapper)
1 War Priest of Thune (Oath, Humans [Stony Silence])
1 True Believer (Oath, Storm)
1 Notion Thief (Griselbrand, Broken Blue, Landstill, Gush, Storm, Skullclamp)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm)
1 Disenchant (Shops, Oath, Null Rod)
1 Path to Exile (Shops, Humans, Fish, swap w. StP against Griselbrand)
1 Abrupt Decay (Shops, Humans, Oath, Vault)
1 Karakas (Oath, Humans [Thalia, Exava], Delver [Vendilion Clique], Shop [extra land, also Karn])

The idea is to maximize the latitude offered by Grand Abolisher's protection to resolve game ending bombs rather than simply using him to prevent another Fish creature or Swords to Plowshares from being countered as is done where he usually sees play.  In that sense, he is a cheaper version of Teferi's best ability and comparable to Xantid Swarm, except that you don't have to pass the turn to attack and he himself is usually protected from countermagic by Cavern of Souls.  

Unlike the approaches Guli has been using that draw from Landstill's "utterly humiliating negation of the opponent" approach with its extreme denial and removal, this deck plays out like a broken blue Bob/Jace deck, but with a more moderated control aspect in favor of greater acceleration and higher threat density.  Cavern of Souls is used offensively here to force through a game win rather than to resolve a control element that prevents a game loss.  The Stoneforge package rounds out Shop/aggro matches and is essential to help offset the inherent suicidal features of running Dark Confidant, City of Brass, fetchlands, and Mana Crypt.  You don't want to take infinite turns and then die during one of them.  That would be embarrassing.  

Mini-report:

Somehow I missed the exit for the shop and ended up lost in Lancaster for over an hour.  As insult to injury, the browser on my "smart" phone was showing an error message and wouldn't respond to anything I typed.  I didn't want the event to wait for me so I called a friend there and said I'd just take a Round 1 Loss, which I did, and that meant I had to do very well to get into the Top 8.  Fortunately I won all my matches.

Round 1 v. Stoneforge Jace Vault

I saw a Tundra, Trinket Mage, and Sensei's Divining Top and wasn't sure if he was playing Bomberman or Blue Angels.  It didn't occur to me he was playing a variation of the list that came in first place at Lancaster last month, which ironically meant it was my own list from August I didn't recognize.  The opponent playing was a friendly guy named Ryan who usually plays Legacy and said he always wanted to see if Stoneblade was viable in Vintage and since it did well last month, it piqued his interest in our format.  Apparently a lot of people playing other formats have been turned on to Vintage because of the events in Lancaster which yield multiple fresh faces every month.  I understand Calvin actively recruits people and spends a lot of time helping them with design & strategy so kudos to him for helping to grow Vintage and contribute to its second renaissance.   So I did the rudest thing ever in game 1 which was to Notion Thief (via Cavern) his draw with Sensei's Divining Top in the early game which yielded such a huge tempo swing I won soon thereafter.  I think it actually ends up being a 3 for 1 rather than the 2 for 1 it seems at first glance, because I draw, he doesn't draw, but then his Sensei's Divining Top is on library and he can't use it to draw anything the following turn.  At some point, he plays Balance which does a great deal of damage to me though I still pulled through.  I comment how I had played Balance maindeck last month with good results and compliment him on his card choice.  

Still, despite the clue from Balance, I side against him Game 2 as though he's on Bomberman/Angels.  He hardcasts Batterskull and I get puzzled.  I Notion Thief his Jace-storm putting him at 1-2 cards in hand and me with a full grip including Demonic Tutor IIRC.  Then he plays Balance again and hardcasts Tezzeret the Seeker.  Suddenly it becomes clear he's playing the Stoneforge Jace Vault list and I feel awkward.  Since I sided out Abrupt Decay I was defenseless against Tez into Vault with Batterskull blocking for the Tez so I concede.  

Game 3, I Notion Thiefed his Snapcaster on Ancestral and used Jace + search to assemble Vault Key.  It was either at time or going to time and Ryan was gracious enough to concede once the combo was assembled.

Notion Thief is the real deal and seems to be online in this list by Turn 2 almost all the time because of the heavy accel package + Nobles.  

Round 2 - BUG Fish

Game 1, he played a Turn 1 Confidant and I had to burn my Demonic Tutor to find Abrupt Decay to get rid of it.  I find it's impossible to beat BUG Fish if they have that thing up and running all game.  The game was very long and grindy.  I had Jace, he had a Trygon Predator and he kept whacking me instead of Jace and gobbling Moxen.  He also had an active Shaman.  I was one mana shy of Eternal Witness -> Vault (Cannot be eaten by Deathrite, hallelujah) + Key + Activate the turn before lethal because he had gobbled my Emerald.  

Game 2, I opened with Cavern, Noble Hierarch, pass.  He played a Shaman I believe and some acceleration.  Turn 2, I play Grand Abolisher with the Cavern, Mox Sapphire, Time Walk.  Untap, play Voltaic Key, play Time Vault, and take infinite turns with no possibility of interference on his part.  

Game 3, my hand had 1 City of Brass, Sol Ring, 2 Mox, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Thirst.  I baited a Misstep with the Sol Ring so that if I drew into Ancestral or Key, they'd be a bit safer.  I have an old habit of pretending to be mana screwed to nefariously influence opposing decision trees.  He Misstepped the Ring.   I didn't play my land that turn because I didn't want it Wasted.  My play sequence was a bit risky because I didn't want to channel right off the bat how reliant I was on Thirst resolving since it was the only business spell in opening hand.  He Vamped and played Trygon Predator onto a board with no land and 1 Mox, but I busted out next turn, Thirsting into 2 Jaces discarding Mana Crypt, resolved the second one, Demonic Tutored for Abrupt Decay, drew Swords, killed his Shaman and Predator, and then played Yawgmoth's Will and he conceded.  

Round 3 - Aggro Humans

Game 1, I had no idea what he was playing.  My hand had lands, a Cavern, Black Lotus, Grand Abolisher and Jace.  I debated being conservative and playing Abolisher first in case he was on FoW, but decided to just go for it and played Land, Lotus, Jace, Jace-storm.  Jace found Key and Demonic Tutor.  I felt good, and then he played his turn of Cavern of Souls, Mox Pearl, Black Lotus, Thalia, Knight of the Reliquary.  Uh oh.  Things just got hairy.  I played Abolisher and Brainstormed again looking for some accel because I knew he'd start Wasting me w. Knight.  He attacked Jace w. Thalia, I chump blocked and then he swapped a Savannah for a Wasteland and hit my land.  I played Voltaic Key (2 mana), Jacestorm, pass.  He killed Jace.  I played land Demonic Tutor (2B) for Vault, pass.  Fortunately he didn't get another Wasteland or Savannah into Wasteland via Knight, so though he got me down to 1 life ultimately, I was able to play the Vault for 3 mana and play another land to untap it and win.

Game 2, I opened with Bob and I believe he did also.  I had Jace then and he had a Pridemage that needed to be dealt with before I could combo out.  I Decayed his Bob and played an Abolisher causing him to sac his Pridemage on my Key.  Next turn, I played Yawgmoth's Will and he conceded.

By then the Top 8 was locked so we all ID-ed the last round.

Top 8, v. Josh P on Blue Angels.

In the brief time between the swiss and T8, I quickly mowed some Reese's Peanut Butter Cups that had half melted in my car and some of the chocolate dripped onto my playmat.  Oops.  

Game 1 We both played Mana Crypt on our first turn.  I played Cavern -> Trinket Mage and got Top which resolved.  I attacked him with the Mage to see if he was bluffing and he had an Angel, but I was fine w. losing the Mage since it was just a Grizzly Bear at that point and felt better having the Angel enter play not blinking a Mage or Clique.  With him having 3 in the air, naturally, my Mana Crypt started to flip against more than his so I Tinkered it into Time Vault to prevent it from killing me.  I played a Bob with Sensei Management but then he played Jace and bounced him every turn, until Jace ran out, upon which he played another Jace and fatesealed me for up to 5 more bounces of the Bob.  It's a good thing he did that because I looked at the next cards under Sensei's and if Bob had one flip, it would have been enough to get both Abolisher and Key into the Top for the win.  I died to the Angel.

Game 2 I had a pretty good hand w. Brainstorm, Sol Ring, Ancestral Recall, Thirst, Jace, Misstep, and played an Underground Sea.  He slaps down Library of Alexandria with a full grip and I get out my camera to take a picture that I intend to caption "how I lost in the quarter-finals."  
 


Fortunately though, instead of a blowout, I launched a valiant assault against the Library, Brainstorming at EoT into Cavern, Bob, and Academy and then baiting a Misstep with the Sol Ring, clearing the way for Ancestral which led to a Mox Pearl and before long the Academy was @ 4, Bob and Jace were in play, in addition to a Stoneforge Mystic & Batterskull.  Josh was digging for more land, played a Trinket Mage for Lotus and killed my first Jace with an Angel.  His strategy of simply riding Library for the win changed when I played a Trinket Mage fetching Voltaic Key and Bob flipped over Time Vault.  He played Explosives @ 2 so I kept the Vault in hand and hit him with Batterskull at least twice bringing him eventually down to three life.  After eventually cracking Explosives @ 2 to kill Bob and Mystic, he played one @ 1 which matched a Hierarch and Voltaic Key.  He had been on Library all game so I was setting up a turn where I'd play Vault, expect him to counter or crack explosives (leaving him with only U open), bounce my Eternal Witness w. Jace, replay it w. Cavern, play Key again, expect that to also be countered and then play Yawgmoth's Will with Mindbreak Trap online.  Mind you, this was all possible because of Nobles and the exceptionally broken amount of mana generated by Vintage's unsung hero, Tolarian Academy with a gazillion artifacts in play and Mana Crypt in hand I think.  The strategy took a turn for the worse however when he Sower of Temptationed my Eternal Witness and we got a ruling clarifying that if he were to use Restoration Angel on it, the Witness would return to play under his control, not mine.  I could not then bounce the Witness then because he had 4 mana open for Angel and he'd simply blink it.  

On his turn, Josh played Angel blinking the Eternal Witness he stole with Sower, bringing back his Black Lotus to cast another Jace for and used that Jace to bounce my Noble Hierarch, by then the only remaining creature, to prevent me from equipping it with Batterskull and attacking.  

None of these contortions would have been necessary if both Grand Abolishers weren't hiding in the 24 or so remaining cards in library.  I still had Yawgmoth's Will in hand and Cavern.  I spun the Top and it showed 3 land.  Cracked a fetchland, spun it again, and it was 2 land and a wholly unnecessary Black Lotus.  UGH.  I had several turns left despite him having 8-10 damage on the table, because the early exalted Batterskull beats had me up to 38 life.  I found a Dark Confidant w. Top, played it with Cavern but he was Plowed and then the Top got misstepped.  Drew 3 lands in a row hoping the one under the Sensei's previous reveals was Abolisher FTW but again... land.   And then land.  I checked after the game, and there were still more lands and a Mox before any business spells.  Such is life.  On the bright side though, it reinforced to me how good of a card this Abolisher is considering it could steal a win against that board state and opponent's Jace + Library of Alexandria fueled full grip.

All and all, it was another great day in Lancaster.  The deck is incredibly fun to pilot.  That's all for now.  -B
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 07:20:21 pm by brianpk80 » Logged

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« Reply #409 on: September 16, 2013, 06:16:45 am »

It was a pleasure battling Mr. Kelly!!!
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« Reply #410 on: September 16, 2013, 01:47:58 pm »

It was a pleasure battling Mr. Kelly!!!

Likewise Josh!  See you next time. 
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« Reply #411 on: September 20, 2013, 12:19:10 pm »

Congrats to Humans which split first place in Lancaster last Saturday:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45684.0

It bears noting that 4 different Humans variations were represented at this event: Mayor Fish w. Oath of Ghouls, Grand Vault, Storm's original conception w. Knight, and Braids/Xathrid combo. 
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« Reply #412 on: September 20, 2013, 01:03:41 pm »

Impressive, seems like I created a monster. Newcomers to Vintage can just assemble it and do very well with it. This makes me a happy guy.

Oh and Brian, nice primer and mini report, loved it!


This sunday I will give a non powered human oath a try in a sanctioned event. I don't expect it to be a large event. Locals told me to expect a lot Workshop with of course some blue pilots too. Other than that anything can cross my path.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 01:06:12 pm by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #413 on: September 22, 2013, 06:50:23 am »

I think Brian should be given a lot of credit for this deck. It's basically his build being played.
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« Reply #414 on: September 22, 2013, 12:43:22 pm »

I played with Human Oath today and got second place, good for a Bayou.

Because I only have 1 Pearl and could lend 1 Jet, i had to play a less powerfull version. It was in Mol, Belgium. The last vintage event here was in 2012. So after a year they decided to do another Vintage event and I am lucky enough to live nearby so I could attend. This was the list I gathered to fight for a top 4 in an event with 10 players.

Human Oath

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 City of Brass
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Eternal Witness
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Oath of Ghouls
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

Round 1: I was paired againd the guy who lend me the Jet. He was playing RUG Delver.

Game one I got in a Deathrite which was not through Caverns but he was not countered anyway. My opponent casts a Delver which I try to Misstep but he Missteps it back. The main thing about this game was that i cut him off green because he had to get a Tropical (which got  wasted) with his Scalding Tarn. He had a mox sapphire in play and a strip mine. I chewed away the sapphire with Ingot. He decided to strip my Scrubland but after that kept missing land drops. I had plenty lands and drew a Demonic Tutor, I got a Recruiter, Recruiter got an Eternal, Eternal got back Demonic, and Demonic got something else. Things went downhill fast and he concedes.

Game two was about me using my Oath of Ghouls with Pridemage and Deathrite Shaman. Both sides had all the mana they want. He bolted and fire iced a lot of my threats but my Oath got them back. Then he drew a Scavenging Ooze, and an Ancestral Recall. Did put him back in the game. But I topdecked a Gaddock Teeg, keeping him off Jace and then topdecked a Rest in Peace (only sided 1 in as a tutor target). Also his Delver refused to flip for several turns. I remember REB'ing a Clique and and holding a Misstep. I used that Rest In Peace to shut off my own Oath and to keep future Tarmogoyf small, and not give additional targets to Ooze. He goes on the offensive with Ooze, but I also attack with my Gaddock and Pridemage. So he pulls back with Ooze, playing more defensive. He lays down a 0/1 Tarmogoyf. I topdeck an Exava some turn later and he only had 2 life at that point. I had lethal damage so I alpha strike him.

Round 2: Doomsday

In game 1 I am on the play. I draw a mox and Cavern of Souls. I lay down Thalia. Turn 2 I waste a land and attack, then deathrite shaman in second main. Things look good, I recognize combo elements. Soon Exava arrives and suddenly I have an insane clock of 2 turns. I also draw a Life from the Loam to waste again. A brutal game. Doomsday can not win against these hands.

Game 2 I had no mox but I had deathrite and Canonist. I also believe I had misstep and that made me keep the hand.  He played a Preordain, I Misstep it and he Missteps back. I cast a Deathrite and then pass. He thinks for a while and decided to wait a turn. But I use this time to waste his land and to sneak in Canonist. He then uses his recources to get an Explosives for 2 in play, but no mana to crack it. I take advantage of this and cast Pridemage, swing for 3 with exalted on Canonist. Then dismantle the Engineered Explosives with Qasali Pridemage. This was the crucial play. After that, Thalia joines in and deathrite, canonist and Thalia are a fast clock getting me there.

I am 2-0 at this point without a game loss. Feeling strong. But where are all the Workshop decks?

After the game we discussed his hand, he had Black Lotus, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will and Tendrills in Hand. Also Duress. He calculated but he could not get to 10 storm. And after Canonist and Thalia hit, the window was closed anyway. I told him that his deck really needs more removal and he agreed. Maybe a Massacre in the sideboard, and a Dismember.

Round 3: Workshop Stax

Game 1 was so nasty, he starts with a Sphere of Resistance. Follows it up with another sphere and then wasteland and Crucible. Without full acceleration these are the hands I can not fight against.

Game 2 was a long game were I take control of the game with Dark Confidant, but at the cost of a lot of life. His smokestack and Tangle Wire slow me down a lot, but eventually he is empty of cards. The thing is though, he has a Jet and Metamorphs my Deathrite Shaman. I also have two deathrites but they are busy trying to protect me from dying to Dark Confidant. I find a Stoneforge and Batterskull but just can not find the window to forge it in play and attack with it to gain life. I reveal an Ingot at 2 life and lose the game.

This was a complicated game and I did not make the best possible plays I think. Hard to recall were I made the big mistakes, probably not saccing Dark Confidant to smokestack when I had the chance.

Round 4: Welder Workshop

I have to win this match to get in the top 4.

Game 1 he has a lot of Welder play, while I have deathrite going for me. Arguably the two best one drops for vintage history battle it out. He has Wires and Metamorphs. I get in Dark Confidant and a Top. He uses Welder and Metamorph tricks to make Metamorph a Dark Confidant. He welds out my top at some point and that turn he makes a misplay, he forgets to weld in a Tangle wire. I use the chance to Decay the Welder. After he loses the Welder, I quickly take over the game and ride to victory.

In game 2 I assemble my Oath and Ingot while loam/waste lock him. But at the cost of being beaten down by double Wurmcoil. I draw additional removal but he also casts a Golem. I can not hold the castle. He is at 46 life, even if I have control, I can not deal with Wurmcoil. I concede and go to game 3.

Game 3 resolved around me getting both moxes, deathrite and stoneforge. Sadly I already had the Batterskull in hand. He has Revokers around to stall me and also puts down Trinisphere and two Thorns. His pressure is too soft and I get Time to assemble my Ingot/Oath combo.


I made top 4 and can play for the finals in the next match!

I get paired against the Stax Workshop again to have my sweet revenge. I win both game rather easily, I drew a lot of my threats like plow, ingot, bobs, pridemage, gaddock teeg for stax and chalice. Things went well, and in game 2 with the additional Ingot and Stony, I again assembled Oath/Ingot.

Then in the FINALS I faced another Workshop. So my metagame expectations were right on target. Problem was I could not get a hold on Snuff Outs. And without full moxes, it can sometimes be hard to play a simple Swords to Plowshares. Also the threat of Chalice of the Void for 1 is there. A quick report of the finals:

Game 1 he is on the play and opens with turn 1 Trinisphere and Metalworker. I concede fast and we laugh bit. I lose my focus and forget to sideboard. And in game 2 I realize I forgot to sideboard and this worked rather demotivating. Not to mention I was seeing Missteps and Thalia's (cards I sb out vs shops).

But I was very happy with the result. I strongly believe I could have taken the finals as well, even without power. But it is no big deal. I won a Bayou and got another top 2 for Humans Oath!

Obviously the plan is to get moxes for future tournaments, this Human Oath list really likes Ancestral Recall and Time Walk as well. But even without full power, you can get good results. I must say though, even those few moxes (pearl, jet, petal) made a world of difference. A completely unpowered version would be possible too, but you would need 4 Misstep and 4 Snuff Out in the deck and maybe some extra Stoneforge and another Batterskull or Jitte.

Cheers,
Guli
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 02:50:08 pm by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #415 on: September 29, 2013, 05:48:24 am »

The card that is probably the most playable one for the Humans archetypes, out of Theros, is:



Some arguments for this statement:

- The card does not lose more than 1 life to Dark Confidant (the 4cc or 5cc "big" finishers like Exava or Dragons do lose a lot life)
- Great mana sink and late game finisher
- Good card against Landstill in the long games
- A Jacecutter (especially with Noble Hierarch)
- Plays around Chalice of the Void
- Works well with the moxes and mana dudes that see a lot play in Humans
- Can be recruited by Imperial Recruiter, compared to Exava. You can set up a Hydra, as a follow up to Recruiter.
- Does not need the uncounterable ability of Cavern of Souls, but can use the colorless mana of Cavern of Souls to become bigger.
- Being 1 mana and not 2 is actually GOOD against explosives. Because decks with Explosives usually want to nail your 2 casting cost threats. It is important that the threats are spread out mana cast wise. For example, a Hydra costs 1, a Thalia costs 2 and an Eternal Witness costs 3. When Sin collector came out, we said it was actually good at 3 casting cost (obviously we would have loved it more if it was 2 casting cost but I am trying to make a point here) in the context of Explosives. It is also worth nothing that Oath of Ghouls is at 2 casting cost, and can get a Hydra, and Hydra could sac itself to create asymmetry in favor of the controller of the black Oath.

Is Hydra better than Exava? I don't know if this is the right question. During testing Hydra felt different, it changed the math of the games and I think this is the topic or level of discussion. We should talk about in what way it changes match ups and not compare it to a card like Exava. When I had a Recruiter/Demonic/Vamp in my hand and some mana, I realized there are new and uncharted lines of play. The haste and uncounterability allow for surprisingly strong plays. Not only clockwise, but also disruption wise, when there is a Planeswalker on the table for example. And a Snapcaster or Trinket is not blocking this due to the pro blue.

Landstill without Explosives has only 1 out against it, Crucible of Worlds. And that card already has a hard time with Deathrite Shamans around. Landstill with Explosives has more outs, but Fire Ice, Bolt or Jace will not work. So the trick is probably to bait out the explosives, take Crucible out or control it and finish up with Hydra. (Be aware that Mindbreak Trap could also answer it but it is very situational)

I think we should all try it out, and have 2 copies ready to launch at any event. If some of us play it, it has a presence and this means blue pilots (and others) will have to worry about it, even against the human decks that don't use it. It makes them worry about more threats and hardens the decision making process.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 05:33:41 am by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #416 on: September 29, 2013, 07:23:33 am »

A UG landstill deck could run this guy also because green never really had an efficient way of killing an opposing Jace...this guy does. Food for thought
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« Reply #417 on: October 04, 2013, 03:30:02 pm »

@Brian:  for your Grand abolisher Human deck, would or have you ever considered the Divining Witch/Lab Maniac combo?  It stays in your main color scheme of UBW, and is another auto win condition under grand abolisher.  Just a thought from a UB human "combo" deck I was trying, but I have never considered the Grand abolisher as a "no you can't do that to stop me" idea before.  Also, question, but does Grand Abolisher stop our opponent from copying spells such as the Chains series or say Chain of Vapor?  If so Chain of Vapor I think would be a great addition to the deck as well, but Im not fully sure on the rulings.  Good Luck!
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« Reply #418 on: October 04, 2013, 08:38:20 pm »

@Brian:  for your Grand abolisher Human deck, would or have you ever considered the Divining Witch/Lab Maniac combo? 

That is a very good question and the answer is that yes I considered it but I never got around to testing it.  The combos I tested were Vault/Key, Auriok Salvagers combo, and Notion Thief + draw 7's.  I really liked the Salvagers one but was annoyed by the way it's interrupted by Sphere effects which is contrary to Abolisher's spirit of freedom.  Lab Man/Witch, Hermit Druid, Painter/Grind, and Helm of Obedience combos are all possibilities. 

I agree with the positive comments above on the Hydra. 
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« Reply #419 on: October 06, 2013, 11:42:41 am »

I think Time Vault is easier to assemble and gives Tinker more targets (Batterskull, Key or Vault). Also the point of Time Vault in Humans is to race Workshop by taking up an aggressive combo role in the match up. Artifacts are easier to sneak through because of Lodestone Golem.

It is intersting, this Time Vault idea in Humans. Normally other aggro decks respond to the TV combo with Revoker or Null Rod (Stony). Human decks however, run cards like Noble Hierarch and Abrupt Decay with maybe even War Priest of Thune or Disenchant backup from the sideboard. So when Humans itself takes up Time Vault something odd happens. A card like Stony should normally stick, but against a deck like humans, this is not the case. This is not a comfortable position to be in as a non combo Human pilot. I run a decent amount of cards to control a normal blue Time Vault player. But playing against Brian is a lot harder for reasons I mentioned above. Also, when everything fails, he still has a Y will plan to just replay the threats I destroyed with cards like Decay, Qasali Pridemage, Ingot, and so on...

A card like Devining Witch would be able to side step Stony Silence or Qasali pridemage, but it does require more setup and time. The speed and 'oops i win' of Time Vault is superiour. Not to mention that you do leave yourself a bit more vulnerable by exiling your library in some situations.

I think Brian's Vault lists are similar to Turbo-Tezz. I have seen Brian gather up 8+ mana on turn 3 way too often. The deck just poops out permanents like it is no big deal and overwhelms you fast. So I think we should call Brian's versions Turbo-Humans. Wink On the other hand, I think there is a price to pay when being so explosive and combo-ish as a Humans deck. By playing more broken things, you are also less good as a 'hate' deck. And you are also more vulnerable to hate , because you run more broken things. I also wonder if Humans is really the best shell to play the combo plan. So far we have seen more than 1 combo human variant. Witch, Hermit and Brian's Vault deck. This does indicate there are combo options. Me, I think Humans should be all about Thalia and Dark Confidant. These two are clearly in a marriage in my decks. Thalia needs additional support in her fight against broken.dec, and Dark Confidant needs help in the grindy match ups. Deathrite Shaman is like the firstborn, he does a little bit of both, disrupting and giving you a mana advantage.

I wonder why Brian isn't building a more aggro/denial/control version. Not to play in the events he is going, but just to throw in a list for those who have a more aggressive playing style. I would be delighted to look into his suggestions/list.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 11:58:14 am by Guli » Logged

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