Vintage for Cash 5 Vacaville Results (16 players)

[LotusHead]

Sixteen players came out to sling cardboard in the most grandest format Magic has to offer! Only 5 were locals (Vacaville area), so the rest were from out of town! Whoot!

After 5 rounds of swiss, a cut to top four came down to:

Stephen Menendian - Gristlebrand Oath  Storm
Michael Lewis - Esper Control
Ryan Reynolds - Gristlebrand Oath Storm
Jeff Huang - Snapcaster Jace control

As Stephen Menendian was the top seed going into top 4, their four-way split of the prize money meant Stephen was the actual winner!

The rest of the field was:
OathStorm x2
Oath
HUMANS!
Landstill
RUG Delver x2
Dredge
Dark Depths
BC Stax
Baleful Strix Control

More content (pics, lists, etc) later tonight

Stephen Menendian Burning Oath 1st

4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Oath of Druids
2 Grislebrand
2 Chrome Mox
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Thoughtseize
1 Time walk
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ponder
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Brainstorm
1 Memory Jar

Sideboard
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Nature's Claim
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Show and Tell
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Thoughtseize

Jeff Huang - Snapcaster Jace Control - 2nd

4 Force of Will
4 Jace, The Mindsculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Mana Drain
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Mental Misstep
2 Thoughtseize
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
3 City of Brass

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Mountain
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ingot Chewer

Ryan Reynolds - Burning oath 3rd/4th

2 Grislebrand
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Demonic Cosultation
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Oath of Druids
1 Windfall
1 Brainstorm
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
4 Burning Wish
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Mox Opal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar

Sideboard

1 Balance
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ancient Grundge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Show and Tell
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Michael Lewis (Luudes) - Esperblade Control 3rd/4th

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, The Mindsculptor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Mana Drain
2 Mental Mistep
2 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Brainstorm

Sideboard
2 Serenity
3 Path To Exile
2 Energy Flux
3 Rest in Peace
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm


David Ochoa (Webster) vs Steven Menendian (Smennen) in the Burning Oath Mirror. In VACAVILLE! Spirit Tokens everywhere!


A bunch of my pics turned out like this. But that's BC with RUG Delver vs Aahz's Can'tCloseLandStill


See what I mean? Luudes vs Ryan Reynolds. Duress pic: Classic


I presented EJ with Humans.dec hot of the TMD forums and said "make it so", and he did.  Apparently turn 1 Lotus Land Thalia and Random Dude followed by turn 2 Kataki is some good vs Stax.


Frankie Mach is not sure what to do vs the Dark Depths matchup.


Jeff Huang Leylineing The Void vs Aardshark "that guy"'s Dredge


Not sure, but I think the guy on the right is winning, but both made top 4.


Yeah. Me vs BC's Stax. The first two games were total blowouts.
When I finally "stabilized" game 3, Cody just had to topdeck Tangle Wire for the pwn. I had so much hotness in my hand, but didn't get a black source until within lethal range of WurmCoil Engines etc.


Dustin (left) played like 3 Vintage games vs ecampee prior to this tourney, and drove 50 miles to attend this.
Luckily for him, Salts (right) Oath'ed his Gristlebrand as 3rd from last card in deck. D'oh!


The mustachioed gangsta on the left is actually NOT playing dredge, but is The Ocho, busting his nuts on Frankie's Spirit Token that can't fly.

[StanleyAugust]

That Esperblade control is missing one card. Brainstorm?

[LotusHead]

good catch. Modified list, but Brainstorm was not on the list I have in front of me. It probably is Brainstorm, only Luudes can confirm.
Our normal TO (and L1 Judge) wasn't there to oversee decklists. He was directing a play at a local highschool. )

[luudes]

yes brainstorm is in the list.
great tourney, I thought batterskull would be pretty decent but it was quite dominant all day. I bounced the skull more in this vintage tourney than my total combined experience with the card, it just jumps right out of the way of all those grudges and trygon triggers. My one loss came against ryan reynolds playing one of Stephan's lists. In game 3 I lead with thoughtseize seeing some stuff including one T1 mana source, a dark rit and yawgs bargain. I am on the play and have mana drain for T2 so I take bargain because it seems the worst if he can resolve something, he rips necro of the top and plays it via his rit. The only play that keeps him in the game, what a mise!

[0/2 Drop]

4 cards are missing on the 1st 's List, i guess it's Duress.

Well done ppl !

[LotusHead]

4 cards are missing on the 1st 's List, i guess it's Duress.

Well done ppl !

Thanks! Fixed

[Smmenen]

Great tournament!  Nice pics Jeff!

[LotusHead]

My mini-report:
Round 1: I face THE David Ochoa.
Last time I faced him was June 10 2010. The deck to beat was Oath.dec (w/Jace2.0/TimeVault Combo). I was still on 5cStax.

I knew that that Oath deck archetype had many-a-route to winning, so I had my SB ready for such a thing. Shop decks generally MD Blue-Deck hate, and customize the G2/G3 plan once the enemy is known.  I was at the top of my game, and faced 3 Oath decks in the first three rounds of swiss (and repeat Ochoa in top 4), and played amazingly, anticipating my opponent's plans, sandbagging answers, and generally doing TMD Full Member Status proud.

That was 2.5 years ago. Since then, I lost my team (don't do drugs people. at least not the bad ones), and haven't had a diehard teammate to playtest against.
Now that we have a "scene" again, we at least get to battle with the best.

I decided to run a Baleful Strix Control deck, because FoW, Welder, Bobs, Tinker, Will seemed fun.  I always have 4-8 Vintage decks proxied up, in my backpack, at all times.  Our last tourney, I was forced to work  my Job notified 2 days prior to the tourney. . I like my job more than magic, so I paid a local's entry fee to pilot a deck I had prepared.

Now I'm facing Ochoa.
Me: Strix Control
Him: ? Blue cards?

I roll 3 on 2d6. He rollls 4.
He (I think) Duresses me.
I play land mox
He plays Oath of druids via Orchard
He kills me.

G2
I counter his t1 Oath of Druids
He plays a second turn 2, and goes off with it since I played an awesome Goblin Welder on my turn.
He goes off on his turn and kills me. I think I had 3 mainphases this match.

Later Web says that maybe plaing a creature isn't the best vs Oath decks in general, something that a Vintage player with constant testing would remember. D'oh!

Round 2: EJ piloting Humans!
I do the ol' Vampiric Tutor in to Timevault sandbagging Voltaic Key thing and win.

G2: I do much the same, but I have 2 bobs in play. he scoops to infinite turns, but I'm "uh, I do have 2 bobs in play" and let him continue, cuz I'm into letting people really find out what vintage is about. I die to my bobs a few turns later. D'oh!

Round 3: Dustin from SF
He's played 3ish games of Vintage, but was willing to drive out to Vacaville for some action. I didn't know any of this at first.
I play Grixis Control vs RUG Delver (w/Gush) and crush him, with every trick/play known to experiened Vintage tourney players, and get to play a game of magic!
Afterword, I tell him about some plays he could have done differently (like floating mana prior to Gushing, something he probably hadn't considered cuz he's new to this format). I take my 3 points and move on to...

Round 4 Cody Shear- BC Stax
He was one of two locals pressed into participating by having someone hand him a deck (BC) (the other was EJ given HUMANS decklist by me)
G1: I Timevailted by turn 2
G2: He had Chalice for 0, Sphere, Lodestone Golem, Sphere, etc.
G3: We had a great game, where my t1 Goblin Welder might have gotten something done.  He forgot a Smokestack trigger (and another later), and I had a second Welder online, but he had Phyrexian Revoker as one of his relevent permanents in play or in GY.
I had half of vault key in hand, and Gifts Ungiven in hand, but had to take a few beats from Wurmcoil Engine, and was always 1 mana short of the win.
Obviously, I would have lost sooner if he ramped up Smokestack optimally.

Round 5: Matt Salts with Burning oath

Both games I had all my forces, mental misteps, and drains all ready to go vs him. He was forced to mulligan, and got jack shit in hand vs doublemistepe, force, blue card. So I won.

I had a blast. Normally I play shops, but I wanted to play a fun deck. So only 1 shop 1 dredge deck out of 16 players. fun!

[Samoht]

Unless they played it out afterwards, the split nullifies any winner. Seeding is pointless as a determining factor, even more so if the Play/Draw rule was not in effect for t8.

All four of them won in my book.

[Smmenen]

Just as an FYI: Vacaville uses the new play/draw rule, as should all Vintage tournaments, since it's part of the DCI floor rules. 

[Samoht]

Just as an FYI: Vacaville uses the new play/draw rule, as should all Vintage tournaments, since it's part of the DCI floor rules. 

It's actually not. Only for certain REL levels, though I do believe it starts at Competitive. Things like Pre-Releases and FNM's are actually not supposed to use the play/draw rule for top 8, and neither are smaller events. Obviously this can be changed at the discretion of the TO.

[Smmenen]

Just as an FYI: Vacaville uses the new play/draw rule, as should all Vintage tournaments, since it's part of the DCI floor rules. 

It's actually not. Only for certain REL levels, though I do believe it starts at Competitive. Things like Pre-Releases and FNM's are actually not supposed to use the play/draw rule for top 8, and neither are smaller events. Obviously this can be changed at the discretion of the TO.

Yeah, but Vintage tournaments should obviously be using this rule.  Most Vintage tournaments are run at the same level as PTQs. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

Why didn't you play it out?  16 players, and you split top 4?

[Smmenen]

My only goal in any tournament is 1st place.  Since I was first in the Swiss, I accepted a split. I can't do worse than 1st place.  Getting to play every match on the play in top 4 obviously made not splitting attractive from a monetary standpoint, but I don't and have never played magic for money.  I care more about final standings than $.

[LotusHead]

The Four winners were also out of towners. Sometimes we split, and play it out for glory, but not in this case.

[Samoht]

1st place means nothing in a top 4 split. That's the same as being the 1 seed in a top 8 chop and saying you won the event. All 8 of you won because you got the same prizes. Anything else would be an insult to the others involved. You can claim you won, but the other 3 are equally winners.

[Grantselrich]

1st place means nothing in a top 4 split. That's the same as being the 1 seed in a top 8 chop and saying you won the event. All 8 of you won because you got the same prizes. Anything else would be an insult to the others involved. You can claim you won, but the other 3 are equally winners.

Agreed, it also seems silly to base final standings based on swiss when people are in different spots because of something like breakers.

It also seems silly that you would not want to play in top 4 because you're in "1st place." Isn't a completely earned 1st place better than a questionable first place? And if you were confident that you would do well where you make a monetary gain, why not do it for the gain of glory? Idk...I just like to play as much magic as I can.

Seems like a nice tournament, must be nice to only have 1 shop deck out of 16 players; I just love Long Island.

[BC]

I love Long Island too, but this tournament was in Northern California.

Yes, there was only one Shops player, and he's not even really a Vintage player.  I handed him my Shops deck so we could get to an even 16 players.  Otherwise he wouldn't have even played in the tournament.  Next time I'll be back on Shops and I'll show these fools what's up.

As for the winner/top 4 split thing... who gives a shit?  All four of them split, all four of them equally won, Smennen wants to claim first place because of standings after Swiss.  Sure... ok... fine... whatever.

[Smmenen]

1st place means nothing in a top 4 split. That's the same as being the 1 seed in a top 8 chop and saying you won the event. All 8 of you won because you got the same prizes. Anything else would be an insult to the others involved. You can claim you won, but the other 3 are equally winners.

Agreed, it also seems silly to base final standings based on swiss when people are in different spots because of something like breakers.

It also seems silly that you would not want to play in top 4 because you're in "1st place." Isn't a completely earned 1st place better than a questionable first place? And if you were confident that you would do well where you make a monetary gain, why not do it for the gain of glory? Idk...I just like to play as much magic as I can.

First place is first place. I don't really care how it is achieved.  

It's not silly. For years the standard in most local type I tournaments was just Swiss rounds without a topb4 or top 8, so 1st place was decided by final standings anyway. What you said is ahistorical.   Final standings is a nearly 20 year standard for determining winners in magic. Go read tournament reports archived on the old dojo.  

What you and samoht are complaining about reminds me of when newer players complain about IDing being contrary to the spirit of the game.  It's long been a part of the game. Sorry.  It doesn't matter how you feel about it.  

I already explained why I accepted a split. Splitting guarantees first place whereas not splitting gives me a nonzero chance at less than 1st place.   If someone else didn't want me to have first place, I would have enjoyed playing it out.  

I'm looking forward to the next one.

[Prospero]

To be fair, Steve, when setting the bar for statistical significance in the past you wouldn't use events that had less than six rounds.  A 16 man tournament wouldn't break the barrier into five rounds (which is hit at 17 players), meaning that someone could go 3-0-1 and end up in first place.  With a split after the top four was announced, this means that a player could theoretically be declared the winner of the event after winning only three matches.  

I think their concern was primarily that they wanted to see the deck go through more of a trial than four rounds before it was held as a viable option for a metagame.  It's tough to go solely by that standard because all you can do is show up (and hope that many others do too); while you'd rather play in a larger event, you can't help that only 15 other guys showed up.  I'd imagine that they felt that the weight given to a 16 man tournament shouldn't be the same as the weight given to a 33+ man tournament.  I've had three or four wins at a tournament and finished well out of contention before.  

[luudes]

We played 5 rounds before determining the top4. Steve and Jeff IDed in round 4 going to 3-0-1 apiece and after that round Ryan and I were well ahead on tiebreakers and had played each other already,  Ryan had played Steve so that meant Steve vs me in Rd 5 and Jeff vs Ryan in Rd5. We of coursed IDed because that would lock us all in. So Steve and Jeff were 3-0-2 and Ryan and I finished at 3-1-1. Ryan lost to Steve and I lost to Ryan.  Steve, Jeff and I had to return to the bay and Ryan to Sacramento and as we didn't start until after 2 playing 2 more rounds as well as the big difference between the split and 3/4 pay out made ($72 vs $28) not splitting kind of illogical. So hopefully that gives a little more perspective on why we didn't play out the last two matches. Anyway, no one particularly cared about seeding so if Steve wants first than that is fine with me, he was first after round 5.  For me it is more like Steve and Jeff finished first and Ryan and I second.

[Smmenen]

Just FYI, we played 5 swiss rounds, swiss plus 1, which is actually standard in swiss only tournaments, and something that used to be widely used in Magic before top x playoffs became more common.

And, to your other point, I told the collective top 4, that regardless of whether we split or not, I would be playing first at the beginning of each of the top 4 matches I played in   In other words, everyone knew that I was first in the swiss at the end of five swiss rounds.  

I think their concern was primarily that they wanted to see the deck go through more of a trial than four rounds before it was held as a viable option for a metagame.

Well, I also won the Meandeck Open event two weeks ago  And I played each round of the top 4 there.  If the issue is about my deck (which no one actually raised), then people can see the various European touraments it won (including that 60+ player tournament).  But I don't really see how any of that bears on this tournament.   The top 4 wanted to split, I was fine with that given my position.   The issue of my decks viability in the metagame is a different issue than whether I ended up 1st place in the final standings.  

[Prospero]

Just FYI, we played 5 swiss rounds, swiss plus 1, which is actually standard in swiss only tournaments, and something that used to be widely used in Magic before top x playoffs became more common.

And, to your other point, I told the collective top 4, that regardless of whether we split or not, I would be playing first at the beginning of each of the top 4 matches I played in   In other words, everyone knew that I was first in the swiss at the end of five swiss rounds.  

I think their concern was primarily that they wanted to see the deck go through more of a trial than four rounds before it was held as a viable option for a metagame.

Well, I also won the Meandeck Open event two weeks ago  And I played each round of the top 4 there.  If the issue is about my deck (which no one actually raised), then people can see the various European touraments it won (including that 60+ player tournament).  But I don't really see how any of that bears on this tournament.   The top 4 wanted to split, I was fine with that given my position.   The issue of my decks viability in the metagame is a different issue than whether I ended up 1st place in the final standings.  

I think the deck is viable, and I think it's a veritable threat to the metagame, so please don't misunderstand me.  I'm more than fine with wanting a split, I'm guessing that they'd just prefer to have seen this done at a larger event.  Doesn't really matter to me - this is a deck that is going to be on the horizon for the foreseeable future, and will be something that players have to prepare for.

[Smmenen]

Thanks Nick.  I appreciate your kind words about my creation here.   #respect . #InVintage.

I'm just glad that we have a growing scene here.  It's great to see so many veterans and newer players in the bay. 

[A.-1.]

First place after Swiss =/= first at the end of the day. While Swiss-only tournaments have occurred in the past, this particular tournament was a cut to top 4. It doesn't make sense to me that you're using a historical example that is no longer the normal practice to back your claim of finishing first. If you want to claim you're first, that's fine, but clarify it by saying first after Swiss with a top 4 split. When I hear a top X split without playing it out, I'm going to say that X players were all equal winners. If the top 4 in this tournament would have played it out after splitting, I would no problem declaring a definitive winner.

Don't get me wrong. I also believe the deck is viable, and your finish in a 16-person tournament has no bearing on my thoughts about its viability.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

First place after Swiss =/= first at the end of the day. While Swiss-only tournaments have occurred in the past, this particular tournament was a cut to top 4. It doesn't make sense to me that you're using a historical example that is no longer the normal practice to back your claim of finishing first. If you want to claim you're first, that's fine, but clarify it by saying first after Swiss with a top 4 split. When I hear a top X split without playing it out, I'm going to say that X players were all equal winners. If the top 4 in this tournament would have played it out after splitting, I would no problem declaring a definitive winner.

Don't get me wrong. I also believe the deck is viable, and your finish in a 16-person tournament has no bearing on my thoughts about its viability.

I agree competely. The top 4 won, there was no definitive winner...

[Smmenen]

First place after Swiss =/= first at the end of the day.

As a factual matter, that is incorrect.   If this was a sanctioned event, I would be listed as 1st place in the DCI database and DCI reporter.  If you were to look up this tournament, it would say that my finish was first place.  You, or anyone else, can say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean its true.  All DCI tournaments require a first place finisher.  That's why even in a split, you have to have a first place person for reporting purposes.

Final standings at the end of this tournament have me in first place, which was my only goal.   You can take that however you want to take it; I don't really care.  Anyone else's opinion is irrelevant.  I only care what the final standings say.   I will always accept a split in which I am first place at the end of the swiss because my only goal is first place in printed final standings in the DCI reporter. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Technically you may be true but to the majority of players, this is a top 4 split. From there if it is not played out to find a true winner, it is nothing more then a split. But sure, technically maybe you are correct...

I am not bashing this deck at all or saying you couldn't have won. I just think a top 4 split and not playing it out is only a top 4 split with no difinitive winner...

I would feel weird going X-0 at an event and the top 4/8 splits, then I declare myself as the winner if I was the top seat? Doesn't this seem weird or is it just me? Then again people that know me, know do not split so this is a mute point...

[Smmenen]

Technically you may be true but to the majority of players, this is a top 4 split. From there if it is not played out to find a true winner, it is nothing more then a split. But sure, technically maybe you are correct...

I am not bashing this deck at all or saying you couldn't have won. I just think a top 4 split and not playing it out is only a top 4 split with no difinitive winner...

I would feel weird going X-0 at an event and the top 4/8 splits, then I declare myself as the winner? Doesn't this seem weird or is it just me? Then again people that know me, know do not split so this is a mute point...

Maybe you should open a thread (or a mod should open a thread) in the Vintage issues or community forum so as not to derail (if it hasn't already) this thread. 

As I said: I will always accept a split in which I am first place at the end of the swiss because my only goal is first place in printed final standings in the DCI reporter and in the reported final standings.  I would have happily played it out if folks had desired. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I guess we have different goals in mind. Yours is to be at first at the final standings, while mine is to be at first at the end of the event.

Congrats on your finish nevertheless!