Building around Izzet Charm

[hitman]

In an effort to get some activity going on the forums, I want to start brainstorming some ideas in public.  I want to see what the best Izzet Charm deck TMD can come up with is.  It hasn't been showing up in many top 8s so there should be plenty to talk about if it is a worthwhile card to build around.  Regardless, it should make for an interesting discussion.  Izzet Charm has three modes.  One, it can counter a non-creature spell unless that spell's controller pays two colorless mana; two, it deals two damage to target creature; three, draw two then discard two cards.  Is Izzet Charm worth building around? 

For starters, two of its modes are lackluster in Vintage.  The two damage is okay but it doesn't kill the number one target in Vintage right now, Lodestone Golem.  It does kill Dark Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, most fish creatures, Goblin Welder, Phyrexian Revoker, Mishra's Factory/Mutavault if there isn't an additional Mishra's Factory to pump it and so on.  The counter ability is pretty poor against everything but Dredge postboard to protect your graveyard hate.  Spell Pierce hasn't been very impressive since Workshops have essentially forced most decks in the format to load up on extra mana to combat them.  This is a slower Spell Pierce.

On the plus side, there's some synergy with Goblin Welder and making Goblin Welder work in the current format is very appealing since it allows you to combat Workshops very effectively.  What it doesn't do is potentially generate card advantage in blue mirrors like Thirst for Knowledge did in the past.  In most matchups, that's fine but being unable to maintain a full grip in blue mirrors can lead to a quick loss. 

Off the bat, I think we can conclude that we need to make the draw/discard ability powerful in order to make up for the deficiencies in the other two modes.  What they lack in efficiency, the other two modes may make up for in versatility if we can make the 'Looter' ability good.  We need to make Izzet Charm a must counter threat so, in the blue mirror, it's not just a spell they can let resolve.  We need to make Izzet Charm generate more value than the counter they would use on it is worth.

Does that mean we need to play 4 Goblin Welder?  How many artifacts are necessary to make this strategy robust?  What artifacts should we be playing to weld in?  Is a Goblin Welder strategy even the best?

Just to provide a starting point for this discussion, here's a list off the top of my head with some explanations afterwards:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand

4 Goblin Welder
4 Izzet Charm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Deep Analysis
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
1 Mana Drain

[hitman]

First off, don't rip me a new one for such an untuned list.  It's just a starting point, I just made the list up and it's 1:53 am right now.  That said, some inclusions and exclusions may seem odd.  

Deep Analysis: You can pitch it to Izzet Charm and Thirst for Knowledge, include it in a "value" Gifts pile and use it as a super draw spell in top deck mode.  I wanted to include several things I would actively want to discard to generate increasing advantage as the game went long.  

Flusterstorm: This deck is far more color intensive than Slaver decks were in the past.  We also need to live through the early game against the blue decks geared for the blue mirror.  Flusterstorm helps us do that until our advantage engines kick in and take over the game.

Mana Drain: There's only one because two blue mana isn't that important to get to in this deck and I haven't believed it's been a great card for years.  Against Shops, there's a good chance you'll never had a good opportunity to cast it and against Dredge, they'll Therapy it out of your hand before it's ever a factor.  It was a nice way of transitioning from a stabilized board into a dominant board in the past but since the mana curve is lower in this deck than old Slaver decks, that's not as important.  We don't need colorless mana to cast Izzet Charm and there's only a handful of cards that seriously benefit from the mana boost.  It is nice to have available once you've stabilized though.

Mystical Tutor: I don't like this card in grindy blue against the mirror.  The loss of card advantage could be made up for with speed if you had a Top in play to draw it immediately but I think that effect isn't necessary.  We're already struggling to generate card advantage because of Izzet Charm and there is no Jace to play in the midgame to catch us back up.  I don't think we need a disadvantage tutor for those reasons.

Burning Wish: In my experience playing Goblin Welder, if you get to the late game with this card in play, it generated massive amounts of mana and card advantage so it's not hard to storm out with a Will or chaining draw spells.  Having Tendrils available is sometimes nice.  Burning Wish doesn't create card disadvantage and the selection it provides can be on par with Demonic Tutor.  

Myr Battlesphere: Blightsteel Colossus doesn't combo well with discard effects and can be particularly vulnerable to Phyrexian Metamorph and Swords to Plowshares, a card that seems to see increasing amounts of play every month.  It's a dream Tinker target against Shops as it handily defeats Tangle Wire and immediately changes the board dynamic.  It's also very strong against Fish.  Jace can't hope to bounce it and live another turn, either.  It does lack the speed Blightsteel provides against Dredge but the best way to beat Dredge isn't usually Tinker into Colossus anyway.  

I hope this sparks some discussion.  I look forward to seeing where you guys take the idea.

[Onslaught]

I think it's a great card, even without building your deck around maximizing it through Welder (and to a lesser extent, Snapcaster). The flexibility is great in every matchup except Shops, to the point where I'd be perfectly comfortable tossing 1-2 into any Jace deck that already was running Red. Of course, it suffers from the same problem that all the other techy/utility counters have - pretty much useless against Shops. It will always fight for slots with Flusterstorm, Missstep, Mindbreak Trap, Steel Sabotage, Spell Snare, etc...

[Meddling Mike]

I think it's been pointed out, but the Burning Wish feels very random and janky. Running it maindeck usually leads to sub optimal SB choices like Eye of Nowhere to get the proper flexibility and value out of it. You were talking about these late game scenarios where it can just win you the game when you have a bunch of mana, but if that's what we're going for almost any piece of gas will do. Past in Flames and Skeletal Scrying both seem like better options just off the top of my head.

How about Mana Vault? You've got an academy, goblin welder and expensive spells.

Vault/Key feels a bit out of place given that we don't have Tezzeret for the quick assembly. I can see a bunch of scenarios where I'd be wishing it was another bot or a mindslaver instead. It's possible that the win condition is strong enough that it should be included regardless.

I think you might underestimate Mana Drain in this deck. It's true that it no longer powers out TFK driven spell chains like it once did, but I still think there's a good number of cards that can let you utilize that extra mana effectively. With all those sphere effects out there a surplus of colorless mana isn't really a bad thing either. Maybe sub out 3 of the Flusterstorms? Between them and the Izzet Charms that leaves you with a lot of mana leak effects that don't counter a Lodestone Golem.

[hitman]

I didn't include Mana Vault because there's really only four spells that require the mana boost, Thirst, Gifts, DA w/ flashback and Will. You could argue that Welder needs more artifacts but I don't even know if 4 Welder is right.

I don't want to play many Mana Drains for the same reason I'm hesitant to play Mana Vault but also because I want to fetch basic Mountain against Shop decks. I'm not a fan of counterspells against Shops and often even side out Force of Will against them. The idea is, it's not hard for Shops to maneuver around counters because of sequencing and Spheres. I'd rather just have better cards. Welder is the card in the main. It has its uses against other blue decks but Flusterstorm is generally better. Where it's not better, like against Jace, Izzet Charm largely shores that up.

I completely agree with you about Vault-Key. It was late last night and I was just trying to build a discussion so I brainstormed a quick deck that I would play in a tournament. I woke up and thought the exact same thing. It's too much work with Izzet Charm and Goblin Welder. I think we need immediately impactful cards that work on their own.

Regarding Burning Wish, I'm not trying to be cute with the card and I've had a lot of success with it in the past. I'd want a Tendrils for the mirror so I can initiate a counter war with some spell then generate mana and cards with Welder tricks into a natural Tendrils. It's really easy with Top and fetches along with Welder to build that kind of scenario. I also want access to be single most powerful cards ever printed against creature strategies, Pyroclasm and Empty the Warrens, without having to actually play those cards in the main. I'd also have access to Shattering Spree among other options.

[hitman]

I want to talk about counters against Shops a little more. It's been said that the reason blue decks don't do we'll against Shops is because they often play narrow counters like Misstep and Flusterstorm. I disagree with the sentiment because there is no good counterspell against Shop decks. You need to have targeted removal so you can build your mana and eventually deal with the threat.

It's entirely too easy to play around countermagic with Spheres and sequencing. If I'm holding a couple Spheres, Lodestone and the mana to cast them, I'm not going to play the Lodestone into two open blue mana, obviously. You're left with Draining a Sphere and I still cast another one then play Lodestone when the window presents itself. Even with your two extra mana from Draining a Sphere, what are you going to do that turn outside of just holding a Jace or Tinker in your hand?  Say you tutor, cantrip or play a draw spell. You're still going to be buried under spheres, Tangle Wire, Lodestone and/or Chalice the following turn.

That's why I don't even keep in Force of Will when I have better cards in the board. You can't cut gas or you just durdle around when windows present themselves. I cut counters because they're only good if you have them before the problematic card comes down AND have the mana to fire them off when you need to. That's a tall order. I use countermagic for blue decks because that's where they're most effective. I use targeted removal against Shops because I find that far more effective than counters. Granted, they're good if you're at parity or already ahead but again, that's hard to do early on against Shops.

There's basically three things that matter against Shops. Building a solid manabase, getting to targeted removal and over-the-top effects that dominate the board. Counterspells don't really do any of those things, at least not very well.

[Meddling Mike]

I want to talk about counters against Shops a little more. It's been said that the reason blue decks don't do we'll against Shops is because they often play narrow counters like Misstep and Flusterstorm. I disagree with the sentiment because there is no good counterspell against Shop decks. You need to have targeted removal so you can build your mana and eventually deal with the threat.

Mana Drain is a good counterspell against shop decks. Also, Annul and Steel Sabotage would like to have a word with you out back. Targeted removal is fine, but it's usually too narrow to be efficient enough to be effective. You don't want to gum up your maindeck with narrow cards.

It's entirely too easy to play around countermagic with Spheres and sequencing. If I'm holding a couple Spheres, Lodestone and the mana to cast them, I'm not going to play the Lodestone into two open blue mana, obviously. You're left with Draining a Sphere and I still cast another one then play Lodestone when the window presents itself. Even with your two extra mana from Draining a Sphere, what are you going to do that turn outside of just holding a Jace or Tinker in your hand?  Say you tutor, cantrip or play a draw spell. You're still going to be buried under spheres, Tangle Wire, Lodestone and/or Chalice the following turn.

If your opponent is playing Spheres instead of dropping threats to play around your counters or give you a less appetizing target for them that's not exactly a bad thing. They're accepting a loss of tempo and mana efficiency to play around cards you may or may not have. Also, if you have additional lands in hand you can sit there and keep building up your mana base because there's no pressure on the board.They're the aggro in this matchup, you're the control. Play accordingly. If they're waiting for a window to drop their threat then don't give them one. You have more lands than he has sphere effects. Also, in most realistic board scenarios Mana Drain will give you the mana you need to power out that Jace or Tinker that will win you the game.

There's basically three things that matter against Shops. Building a solid manabase, getting to targeted removal and over-the-top effects that dominate the board. Counterspells don't really do any of those things, at least not very well.

You know what is capable of providing you with more mana, keeping an opposing threat from ever hitting the board and can help you get an over-the-top effect onto the board? Mana Drain. BONUS: It's not dead in other matchups as even Dredge has some spells it would like to cast.

[hitman]

They're the aggro in this matchup, you're the control.

I think this is wrong. This is probably why we take such different approaches. I try to create windows with targeted removal through which I play over the top effects. You try to control the game.

You know what is capable of providing you with more mana, keeping an opposing threat from ever hitting the board and can help you get an over-the-top effect onto the board? Mana Drain.

...conditionally. My argument is those conditions are hard to come by.

[Daenyth]

Anecdotally from my own experience, Mana Drain is fantastic against shops - when you're even in the game, it drastically helps swing it in your favor. Having it in your deck means that any time you can muster resources for a two-mana spell, you can negate one of their mid game turns completely (given that outside of the first few turns, they don't usually cast more than one spell)

[Meddling Mike]

They're the aggro in this matchup, you're the control.

I think this is wrong. This is probably why we take such different approaches. I try to create windows with targeted removal through which I play over the top effects. You try to control the game.

You keep talking about the importance of "targeted removal". I don't see any in your list. No shattering Sprees, No Smelts, No Chain of Vapor and No Hurkyl's Recall. Are you talking about the 2 damage mode on Izzet Charm? Because two of those to kill a lodestone Golem at 3 mana a pop doesn't seem like a good strategy.

You know what is capable of providing you with more mana, keeping an opposing threat from ever hitting the board and can help you get an over-the-top effect onto the board? Mana Drain.

...conditionally. My argument is those conditions are hard to come by.

Look, if shops get's a great hand and you never get out from under spheres then that happens. It's why I think it's the most powerful archetype in the format. That doesn't mean I think we should concede game 1 by running a bunch of dead cards to boost the control matchup win % slightly. Have you ever actually played v. Shops with Drains before? The tempo swing of countering even something small like a sphere is usually all you need to break through.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Some of my favorite plays against shops while I am on landstill are...turn 1spell pierce, turn 2 drain, into good things (assuming I am on the play). Next Mindbreak Trap is a great blowout sometimes vs a broken shops hand.

As far as izzet charm. I play 1 in landstill sometimes. It's good, but as you said doesn't hit golem. This keeps me from running more copies, while I run multiple lightning bolts to deal with that guy.

[hitman]

You keep talking about the importance of "targeted removal". I don't see any in your list. No shattering Sprees, No Smelts, No Chain of Vapor and No Hurkyl's Recall. Are you talking about the 2 damage mode on Izzet Charm? Because two of those to kill a lodestone Golem at 3 mana a pop doesn't seem like a good strategy.

In the main, I have 4 Welder and a Burning Wish to get Shattering Spree.  In any case, I don't want to make this about Mana Drain.  I'm just sharing my perspective.  Maybe Mana Drain's awesome.  I didn't want to build a deck and thoroughly test it then write a primer on it.  That doesn't generate a lot of activity on threads because most, if not all, the work is done already and people don't have much to say.  I want this to be a community thing where people are free to express where they think the deck should go.

Look, if shops get's a great hand and you never get out from under spheres then that happens. It's why I think it's the most powerful archetype in the format. That doesn't mean I think we should concede game 1 by running a bunch of dead cards to boost the control matchup win % slightly. Have you ever actually played v. Shops with Drains before? The tempo swing of countering even something small like a sphere is usually all you need to break through.

I've pretty much played Drains non-stop for eight years against perfectly fine players.  We don't need to go down this route.  We obviously have different results with them against Shops.  I don't find Draining a Sphere to be enough to break through most of the time because it's one small part of a lot of cumulative effects going on.  Agree to disagree? 

Do you have any suggestions for replacements for Vault-Key? 

[Twaun007]

Would it be beneficial if this Izzet Charm Welder list was cut down to just two colors, Blue and Red? It could solidify your mana base and open up some more slots in the main. Also, with having the deck relying heavily on Welder and the graveyard could we include other artifact combo's as well? Welder, Vault/Key, Mindslaver, and Painter/Grindstone seems pretty saucy and give you plenty of fuel to filter.

Another thing, does Izzet Charm provide the right synergy to compliment welder? Should we be looking at Dragon, Madness, TMWA, or some other type of strategy instead?

Over all, I think relying on Goblin Welder is a bit loose. Vintage has an enormous amount of was to deal with creatures right now.

The guy doesn't pitch to Force and he gets rocked by Mental Misstep.(this comment is also loaded with sarcasm)  

[hitman]

So Izzet Charm is about as good as I'd heard, not very.  It's best when countering a Jace and killing a Fish creature.  It hits Revoker against Shops but unless you fetch a basic Mountain to play it, they just Wasteland you out of the game.  Welder isn't good on it's own.  It needs to be paired with something like Gorilla Shaman or removal.  You can't depend on counters to be castable in time to get something in their graveyard to manipulate their board.  It really isn't very good at doing anything.  If Fish and Jace decks became popular, I might run a couple but the working parts of the deck is the basic blue shell.  The addition of Izzet Charm is just kind of gimmicky. 

Also, apologies to the moderation staff.  I just saw that there's a Creative Forum to put stuff like this under. 

[Oath of Happy]

Cool deck idea, gotta get some underground seas in there, city if brass might fit in well too

[hitman]

Yeah, I noticed that when I started building the deck to test.  I had a long testing session today and it didn't really go anywhere so I didn't update the list.  I ended up with one Welder being a good number and Izzet Charm being pretty bad.  In the end, it ended up just being another typical blue deck once the Charms got cut and the Welders trimmed to one.  If I was playing against a bunch of two toughness creatures or 4 Jace decks all day, Izzet Charm would be better.  Taxing a 4 mana spell is pretty good and having 4 removal spells against Fish is good but the deck sucked against Shops and other blue decks.  I didn't play against Oath but I imagine it's not very good with 4 Welders and 4 Flusterstorm with no way to remove a resolved Oath.  With Vault-Key cut, you can't even goldfish them.

[Oath of Happy]

Yeah, I noticed that when I started building the deck to test.  I had a long testing session today and it didn't really go anywhere so I didn't update the list.  I ended up with one Welder being a good number and Izzet Charm being pretty bad.  In the end, it ended up just being another typical blue deck once the Charms got cut and the Welders trimmed to one.  If I was playing against a bunch of two toughness creatures or 4 Jace decks all day, Izzet Charm would be better.  Taxing a 4 mana spell is pretty good and having 4 removal spells against Fish is good but the deck sucked against Shops and other blue decks.  I didn't play against Oath but I imagine it's not very good with 4 Welders and 4 Flusterstorm with no way to remove a resolved Oath.  With Vault-Key cut, you can't even goldfish them.

Based on your testing it sound like izzet charm isn't the card to build a deck around but do you think it is a good one of utility card for blue or was it just crap all together?

[hitman]

Well, it's good in corner cases.  If you play against a lot of Fish, it's a removal spell for almost any of their creatures.  If you play against Jace decks, it's alright.  It taxes an already expensive spell and the decks that play Jace tend tend to play spells like Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Trinket Mage and sometimes Aven Mindcensor.  I don't actively care about killing Snapcaster Mage and Trinket Mage but it's strong against the other creatures.  If you're holding Will, the draw/discard can fuel it so it's more powerful.  

It's okay at doing a bunch of things but I wouldn't say it's good at anything.  Personally, I'd rather just play better cards but if you want an okay spell that does a few things, this could be your card.  

I wanted the draw/discard ability to be better but it's not very good either.  It's not like end of turning Thirst for Knowledge where they're caught between a rock and a hard place.  If they counter Thirst end of turn, they could get blown out by a bomb on the next main phase and if they let it resolve, well, they just let a powerful draw spell and graveyard enabler resolve.  Izzet Charm can be powerful in that situation but it tended not to be.  You can't use it to generate card advantage like Thirst outside of running awkward cards like Deep Analysis with it.  The more copies of DA you play, the more awkward your deck becomes or you just play one or two and you rarely see it when you want it.  

Maybe it's good with Accumulated Knowledge but Accumulated Knowledge is probably as clunky and unimpressive as Izzet Charm as an engine.  It might have been a good fit in the old Drain Tendrils decks but then the mana cost is really awkward.  Basically, the games where Izzet Charm appeared good, it was held up by the more powerful cards in the deck.  As a utility spell, I like Fire/Ice more.  It usually two-for-ones.  This card never really does that.  

Maybe there's a blue/red deck that just plays 4 Izzet Charm, 4 Accumulated Knowledge, 4 Snapcaster Mage and 1 Goblin Welder.  Fill it with a bunch of control cards and just try to grind games out, kind of like an aggressive version of Landstill.  I'm sure you'd need to play a basic Mountain in the deck because fetching a Volcanic Island to cast Izzet Charm against Workshops is a fantastic way to get buried by Wasteland and Spheres.  You'd also need to shore up Oath as I'm sure it's a terrible matchup.

In that kind of deck, Meddling Mage's suggestion of more Mana Drains is good because you don't have to fight with your mana as much since you're not as aggressive.  If you're not aggressively casting Izzet Charm, you can just play land, end step Izzet Charm with Drain up and go from there.  Maybe Onslaught's right and pairing it with Snapcaster Mage is better than pairing it with Goblin Welder, or at least not as many Goblin Welders. 

I'll keep working on some ideas. 

[Samoht]

I've played multiples of this card to great success. It does everything in this format aside from killing a LSG. That's fine with me. It kills Revoker/Manlands and counters Wire/Spheres/Crucible/Stack/Sculpting Steel in that match up anyway. It kills Bob, stops Jace, counters Dredge hate, and is effective in counter wars. The fact that it is a Careful Study at instant speed is the icing on the cake that makes this card better than say, Fire//Ice. I'm not saying you should build a deck around it, but UR Landstill and UBr control both use the card very effectively.

[LotusHead]

I have been working on Izzet Charm in a Welder deck. Today, I added Intruder Alarm for some combolicious action. W/Baleful Strix, Myr Battlesphere, Triskelion, Solemn Simulacrum, etc. Kinks are being worked out, but that's where I'm taking Izzet Charm.