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Author Topic: Cards That Don't See Play in Dredge But Seem Like They Could  (Read 3807 times)
msg67183
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« on: February 08, 2013, 10:12:21 pm »

Hello,

I noticed a few cards that have seen minimal play in Dredge lists and was curious as to why they don't.
The biggest card was Nether Shadow, with every Dredge deck playing 3 Thug minimum and 3 Ichorid Minimum as well as most playing 4 Chewers main, why doesn't Shadow see any kind of play? It seems fun against Shops as yet another dude to get in under their spheres AND he has haste, plus he isn't hard to cast games 2 and/or 3.

Phantasmagorian hasn't seen any play for years, but seems like it could be another engine instead of relying on Bazaar. Only problem I see with Phantasmagorian is Needle and Revoker.

Sphinx of the Chimes seems like a viable Dread Return target in decks with mostly 4 ofs, but there are probably just better options.

Hellraiser Goblin seems really good as a target for Sun Titan, doesn't require a Dread Return like FKZ, but also doesn't give the +1/+1.

Flayer of the Hatebound seems good in the mirror since Bridges are leaving left and right and Flayer doesn't require tokens in play like FKZ does.

Why isn't Contagion being played anymore? It seems as good if not better than Darkblast, you can't get it back from the grave, but it kills 2 X/1s. Or it makes Lodestones tiny, as well as being free opposed to 1 mana, and it can't be Mental Misstepped.

I think that's all for now, thanks for reading.
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2013, 09:53:22 am »

Hello,

I noticed a few cards that have seen minimal play in Dredge lists and was curious as to why they don't.
The biggest card was Nether Shadow, with every Dredge deck playing 3 Thug minimum and 3 Ichorid Minimum as well as most playing 4 Chewers main, why doesn't Shadow see any kind of play? It seems fun against Shops as yet another dude to get in under their spheres AND he has haste, plus he isn't hard to cast games 2 and/or 3.

Phantasmagorian hasn't seen any play for years, but seems like it could be another engine instead of relying on Bazaar. Only problem I see with Phantasmagorian is Needle and Revoker.

Sphinx of the Chimes seems like a viable Dread Return target in decks with mostly 4 ofs, but there are probably just better options.

Hellraiser Goblin seems really good as a target for Sun Titan, doesn't require a Dread Return like FKZ, but also doesn't give the +1/+1.

Flayer of the Hatebound seems good in the mirror since Bridges are leaving left and right and Flayer doesn't require tokens in play like FKZ does.

Why isn't Contagion being played anymore? It seems as good if not better than Darkblast, you can't get it back from the grave, but it kills 2 X/1s. Or it makes Lodestones tiny, as well as being free opposed to 1 mana, and it can't be Mental Misstepped.

I think that's all for now, thanks for reading.

Nether shadow - way slow and not as good as bloodghast, ichorid, or narcomoeba.
Phantasmagorian - slower than bazaar and doesn't help you draw cards to speed dredging...also if you are not on 8 cards, you have no way to get this guy in the grave.
Sphinx - no where near as fast as sun titan getting back another bazaar (or fatestitcher to untap bazaar) and is more situational early on depending on what cards you flip
Hellraizer goblin - flamekin is just better.  Your first dread return is going to hit sun titan so you can chain and mill your whole deck - then you have no problem dread returning the flamekin and won't have to worry about needing another dread return.  If dread return isn't available or countered, you'd never get back sun titan in the first place.  Also, when bridges get removed due to a dead opponent's critter, you might not be able to make 100 zombies, and the +1/+1 can make the lethal difference.
Contagion - it doesn't dredge.  You need as much of the dredge mechanic as possible to chain through your whole deck.  Darkblast is also immune to counters as you can just keep dredging and try again.

Flayer - This is the only card you list that has any playability over what is currently used.  I think it could possibly be a sideboard card to skirt around ensnaring bridge from the sideboard.  Chewers and ancient grudge can usually handle it, but this guy would be free and immune to welder recovering a blown-up bridge.  If you wanted to try it main, you could possibly replace FKZ, but you usually want to be returning sun titan FIRST, and then getting your win last...this guy would have to be in the grave BEFORE you start amassing zombies and titan, and if he's at the bottom of your library, that could lead you to fizzle and have to pass the turn (which can end up with them tinkering for memory jar or just winning on their turn).
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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 10:17:18 am »

Grave crawler...aggro dredge FTW!!!
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2013, 01:53:26 pm »

About Nether Shadow, if you are already maxed out on those dudes, why can't he see play? It's yet another free dude against this shops dominated meta, and it's fun against control because who wants to counter him games 2 and 3?

Contagion seems better than Darkblast in a shop heavy meta.
Against a deck with black if they have a Jailer out that's the only time you really want Darkblast, and if they Misstep it, you can't dredge it back, where as Contagion can kill the Jailer and another dude if need be.

Another card I thought of was Noxious Revival. It puts your Narcomoebas back on top to dredge them, also blanks VT and other top deck tutors or essentially time walks other decks by blanking their next draw.
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2013, 01:56:05 pm »

Grave crawler...aggro dredge FTW!!!

Aggro Dredge..... Yes, let's make a deck that is already THE Aggro deck of the format even MORE Aggro!!! LOL
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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2013, 03:31:08 pm »

Grave crawler...aggro dredge FTW!!!

Aggro Dredge..... Yes, let's make a deck that is already THE Aggro deck of the format even MORE Aggro!!! LOL

YESSSSSSSS!!!
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2013, 06:25:12 pm »

Another card I thought of was Noxious Revival. It puts your Narcomoebas back on top to dredge them, also blanks VT and other top deck tutors or essentially time walks other decks by blanking their next draw.

I have toyed with Noxious a bit and I love/hate it.

The good:
- Gets you back Bazaars you mill before your draw step
- Put Narcos back before you dredge
- Can fight top deck tutors and potentially timewalk your opponent
- Can rescue something from a grave wiper

The bad:
- Pretty Meh against Shops which is pretty much everywhere
- It's a good target for misstep. While Misstep works against Cabal, cabal gets a second use, while this just gets shot down. It basically takes away some of the VCA the deck has.
- You have to cut something for it in an already tight deck list
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2013, 06:48:57 pm »

Another card I thought of was Noxious Revival. It puts your Narcomoebas back on top to dredge them, also blanks VT and other top deck tutors or essentially time walks other decks by blanking their next draw.

I brought this up in an article I wrote like a year and a half ago.
Quote
Noxious Revival

What's the competition? Crop Rotation/Petrified Field; they all help keep a Bazaar of Baghdad up and running.

Why is Noxious Revival better than Crop Rotation/Petrified Field?

1)   Noxious Revival has good synergy with Narcomoeba. If you have a Narcomoeba in the graveyard, you can put it on top of your library before you dredge, flip the Narcomoeba, and get him into play.

2)   Get back your anti-hate spells. If you have the Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim/Darkblast for their Tormod's Crypt/Yixlid Jailer/Relic of Progenitus, and it gets countered, you can Noxious Revival it and either get a chance to replay the spell or force them to pop their Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

3)   You can use Noxious Revival on your opponent. You can cast it on your opponent to put a dead card on top of an opponent's library. This doesn't ruin topdeck tutors, but it can be used to potentially set them back a turn. In game one, that one-turn setback can mean the difference between a win and a loss.

4)   Crop Rotation costs mana, and you have to sacrifice a land. A countered Crop Rotation is a massive setback; a countered Noxious Revival still leaves options. Noxious Revival is also easier to cast through sphere effects.

5)   Petrified Field costs a land drop. If you play a turn 1 Bazaar of Baghdad, and your opponent Wastelands it, you can Noxious Revival it and draw it on your next turn and play it. In the same situation, Petrified Field would require another turn to get Bazaar of Baghdad back into play.

Why is Petrified Field/Crop Rotation better than Noxious Revival?

1)   Crop Rotation doesn't depend on your graveyard. Crop Rotation allows you to proactively find a Bazaar of Baghdad.

2)   Noxious Revival doesn't directly lead to a landfall trigger. Crop Rotation gives the opportunity to have two landfall triggers in one turn. Petrified Field usually ensures multiple landfall triggers with its own trigger and the trigger for the land it puts in your hand. This allows for some strong plays with Bloodghast and Dread Return/Cabal Therapy/Bridge from Below.

3)   Noxious Revival costs a dredge. If we use Noxious Revival to get back something we would like to get into our hand, we have to forego a dredge in order to get the card on top. By comparison, Crop Rotation puts the card directly into play, and Petrified Field puts the card in hand, so there is no need to forego the dredge.

4)   Petrified Field produces mana, which can be used to push Cabal Therapies, Dread Returns, etc. through sphere effects.

5)   Crop Rotation gives some additional hands that can be kept without Bazaar. Although I wouldn't recommend keeping a hand that can fall apart to a Force of Will, if you get down to three cards, beggars can't be choosers. At some point, your chances of winning from running out a Crop Rotation and hoping they don't have Force of Will is better than your chances of finding a Bazaar in subsequent mulligans.

6)   You can't counter a Petrified Field.

Will Noxious Revival see play? I think this could be the sleeper card of the set; nobody really seems to be talking about it, but I think it could help to make the deck more resilient to one of Dredge's most common game one problems. It helps us answer Wasteland like Crop Rotation does, but it's not as risky and easier to cast through the sphere effects that we are likely to see. It can help us recur our anti-hate cards or force them to use their hate cards before they might want to. The fact that it can also be used proactively to set back an opponent's game plan or get us a Narcomoeba is some excellent additional utility.

I also made a t8 with it having two copies in the maindeck about a month later.

It's not a bad card by any means, but I seem to be the only one playing with it in Dredge that I'm aware of.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2013, 06:52:05 pm »

The bad:
- Pretty Meh against Shops which is pretty much everywhere

It's funny, that's the matchup that I had in mind when including Noxious Revival in my decks. A turn 1 Wasteland on my Bazaar was such a kick in the balls I wanted more cards to fight against that game 1.
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2013, 07:13:09 pm »

About Nether Shadow, if you are already maxed out on those dudes, why can't he see play? It's yet another free dude against this shops dominated meta, and it's fun against control because who wants to counter him games 2 and 3?

Contagion seems better than Darkblast in a shop heavy meta.
Against a deck with black if they have a Jailer out that's the only time you really want Darkblast, and if they Misstep it, you can't dredge it back, where as Contagion can kill the Jailer and another dude if need be.

I think some people have addressed this a bit already, but I don't think that most lists are actually maxxed out on the creatures you mentioned. The earliest incarnations of the deck did actually run Nether Shadow, but then they printed Narcomoeba and Bloodghast and Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul both ended up the odd men out. I guess you could always have more free creatures, but something has to come out to make room and there's nothing I really want to take out to fit those in.

Contagion isn't a bad card, but you're sort of discussing two mutually exclusive scenarios as I have never seen the Shops list that also runs Yixlid Jailer. So, against shops it might be better because you could shrink a lodestone golem, but no matter what the matchup is you can dredge a Darkblast to enable your dredging. It's pretty crucial that you have a certain saturation of Dredge cards for the deck to function consistently. So it might be a bit worse in that particular situation, but it's DEVASTATING to have Contagion sitting in your hand when you don't have any Dredge cards to pitch to your Bazaar on turn 1. If they have two Jailers out at the same time, Contagion is a pretty big blowout, but I think most of the time Darkblast will get the job done and let you rebuy with a Yixlid Jailer on the stack by tapping your Bazaar in response. The having to exile a black card isn't irrelevant either. Most of the black cards in the deck you'd like to keep around if possible, they're not like Narcomoeba or Serum Powder that just sort of take up space in your hand. If you exile that Bloodghast/Ichorid/Cabal Therapy/Stinkweed Imp/Golgari Thug/etc. those cards aren't doing their thing anymore, which can matter.
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 09:02:49 pm »

The bad:
- Pretty Meh against Shops which is pretty much everywhere

It's funny, that's the matchup that I had in mind when including Noxious Revival in my decks. A turn 1 Wasteland on my Bazaar was such a kick in the balls I wanted more cards to fight against that game 1.

From what I have played with it, it can be good in that match up, but if they start playing spheres it has the same problem a tutor has, in that its yet another spell you need to pay a tax on in addition to the spell you want to cast that you get back with it (assuming its not bazaar).

I think my issue with it is that it does not prevent the hate cards you are going to need to prevent in the dredge match, and it does not directly push your goals ahead either. Gravehate has literally only gotten better with rest in peace now being a main deck capable card, and pretty much every deck is packing gravehate as a result of them doing so much more than just hating the grave.

Grafdiggers stops tinker and oath so it sees play maindeck
Rest in peace all but blanks goyf and yawgs will so it sees maindeck play
Leyline of the void sees maindeck play against other dredge lists because it lets ichorid stay on against creature decks and wins the mirror
I have seen quite a few lists running nihli spellbomb as a cantrip, artifact enabler

Basically the card is cute, but it does not do anything you could not already do for the most part and does not help you shore up the matches/cards you need to deal with. It basically feels win more a lot of the time.
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2013, 06:22:47 pm »

Has anybody tried using skullclamp in dredge?
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 09:45:28 pm »

Has anybody tried using skullclamp in dredge?

The Biggest problem with Skullclamps in Dredge is that if the opponent has a Leyline of the Void or a Rest in Peace out, Skullclamps do absolutely nothing except kill your dudes, since they don't go to the graveyard. If the metagame shifts away from LotV and RIP it could possibly see play because it seems fun as hell.
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 08:59:10 am »

Another card I thought of was Noxious Revival. It puts your Narcomoebas back on top to dredge them, also blanks VT and other top deck tutors or essentially time walks other decks by blanking their next draw.

I have toyed with Noxious a bit and I love/hate it.

The good:
- Gets you back Bazaars you mill before your draw step
- Put Narcos back before you dredge
- Can fight top deck tutors and potentially timewalk your opponent
- Can rescue something from a grave wiper

The bad:
- Pretty Meh against Shops which is pretty much everywhere
- It's a good target for misstep. While Misstep works against Cabal, cabal gets a second use, while this just gets shot down. It basically takes away some of the VCA the deck has.
- You have to cut something for it in an already tight deck list


Would you suggest running noxious revival #1 over petrified field #4?  or any other permutations? 
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 10:50:36 pm »

I currently run 0 fields so I don't know that I can recommend cutting them. I boarded out my revivals as well at this point. I like the potential they have but like I said they are a bit lackluster against shops past game 1 (and just ok game one) and I would rather just have a deck that streamlines what its doing than has cute blowout tricks that only sometimes come up.
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