You Make The Card 4 - Design A Magic Card For Vintage

[Smmenen]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.  I recommend that we submit a card that can do something about Shops.

What are ideas for the best possible anti-Shop card?  

* A free blue card that can only counter artifacts?

* A land that can produce more than one mana if your opponent has two or more artifacts in play?  

Steve, we don't use all caps in titles, as it's not only poor grammar, but internet yelling.  I have properly edited your title - Prospero

[The Atog Lord]

In my opinion, the card that is needed against Workshop in Vintage has the following text:

Channel -- (R/G): Destroy target artifact. (Discard this card and pay either R or G: Destroy target artifact).

The rest of the card could be anything.

[Will]

I am not opposed to the printing of a different hate card to fight Workshop decks, but I think there is a very fine line that if crossed would make the format worse rather than better.  As it currently stands, there are a myriad of potential sideboard (or maindeck) options for fighting Mishra's Workshop decks: Ancient Grudge, Hurkyl's Recall, Ingot Chewer, Shattering Spree, Trygon Predator, Steel Sabotage, Serenity, Nature's Claim, Dismember etc.  The common bond that these cards share is that none of them is an "ideal" answer, each has pros and cons that could make them attractive or unattractive.  

I think the printing of an "ideal" answer to Workshops would detract from the skill intensiveness of the format both in deck construction and in play, which is not what I want out of Vintage.  In the Northeast at least, the format is extremely balanced with a lot of very "grindy" matchups where the smallest error can tilt the scales in favor of either player.  With the introduction of a potentially "ideal" answer to the Workshop pillar, the decision of what hate package to play could be removed.  Further, an "ideal" hate card would take a lot of the skill out of playing the matchup giving the side with an "ideal" hate card more of a margin of error than their opponents.  The power level of many of the cards in the format already makes Vintage more forgiving than most other formats, which is one of the negatives of the format in my opinion.  I think the intention of an "ideal" hate card would be to lessen the margin of error that Workshop pilots have, but would ultimately do the opposite as Blue pilots would have one less matchup to worry about so long as their sideboard has 4 of the "ideal" hate card.

In summation, I don't think printing a new anti-Workshop card would be bad, but if the power level is significantly higher than other current options I think this would detract from the balance that the format currently has.

[shrewarmies]

I have often tought that it is not the quality of the artifact removal that makes shops seem like a hard matchup for many blue decks but much like dredge they are mostly sideboard cards. It is not the case that you cannot design a blue deck to fight shops but in doing so generally weakens you in the blue matchups. What I think would be a safe printing would be something that can quasi deal with both U decks and shops decks.

Something like:

Blast of Power R

deal 3 damage to target creature or counter target blue spell

A card like this is not strictly superior or inferior to either REB or bolt it would be a card that could see maindeck play in some lists because it fights both the shop and blueatchups. The ability to deal with bobs and snapcasters is just gravy.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wizards isn't going to make something boring like a hate card, so don't waste your time thinking that they will.  This is a marquee card--it's not going to be a Hurkyl's variant or something stupid.  There are already a zillion pieces of artifact hate anyway.

[shrewarmies]

I never intended the above card to be an example of the kind of card they would be looking to print in this thing.

For this I would be looking for a card that breaks the normal rules of magic, just like Crucible did. An interesting effect tacked onto a creature or artifact probably.

[brianpk80]

It looks like Land is on track to win.  If I understand correctly, Planechase and Commander are the best homes for cards specifically tailored for Eternal formats.  Maybe we'd be better off lobbying the designers of those sets for something like the Channel instant, which ideally would exile rather than destroy the artifact and have a non-Channel use that was relevant in a broad array of matches. 

A land whose output varies with the amount of artifacts an opponent controls is an intriguing idea.  It's not necessarily broken because of its high variance; it risks producing 0 v. Fish or Dredge or a clever opponent playing around it.  Also, a cheap/free/land effect that countered or prevented the casting of spells with a greater casting cost than the amount of lands in play (or with an amount of counters on a given permanent with the caveat that each of the controller's turns a counter is added) would help mitigate some of the format's more problematic early game-enders, whether fueled by power, Workshops, or Bazaar. 

Is there a Planechase expected this year?  It wouldn't bother me at all if the Design a Card contest produced something other than a hoser of a specific archetype played exclusively in Vintage. 

[shrewarmies]

As far as I am aware there is no planechase set for 2013 but there will b another set of Commander pre cons

[Twaun007]

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.  I recommend that we submit a card that can do something about Shops.

What are ideas for the best possible anti-Shop card? 

* A free blue card that can only counter artifacts?

* A land that can produce more than one mana if your opponent has two or more artifacts in play? 

Lol, coming from a Mage who claims their singleton Oath combo deck stomps Workshops... Hilarious.


 

[Prospero]

Wizards isn't going to make something boring like a hate card, so don't waste your time thinking that they will.  This is a marquee card--it's not going to be a Hurkyl's variant or something stupid.  There are already a zillion pieces of artifact hate anyway.

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.  I recommend that we submit a card that can do something about Shops.

What are ideas for the best possible anti-Shop card? 

* A free blue card that can only counter artifacts?

* A land that can produce more than one mana if your opponent has two or more artifacts in play? 

Lol, coming from a Mage who claims their singleton Oath combo deck stomps Workshops... Hilarious.

Wizards isn't going to waste their time with a hate card when they could print something that actually does something cool. 

Given the number of people that play EDH and the number of people that play Standard, I fully expect that the card that is printed will be something that appeals to one of those two communities. 

Thinking that the entire Magic community is suddenly going to vote for a hate card to be printed in a niche format that 99% of Magic players don't play is beyond wishful thinking.

Also, as Steve has already noted, he has solved the Workshop problem with his Burning Oath deck, so I guess we don't really need an answer, right?

[Womba]

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.

Because that worked out SOOOOO well before....




I personally voted for Land.

[Klep]

As long as I can, I will vote for every option that brings this card closer to Counterspell.

[brianpk80]

As far as I am aware there is no planechase set for 2013 but there will b another set of Commander pre cons

TY.  Are they going to add new cards again or is it all reprints?

[Thecheese]

I voted for artifact!

[RitNecroWin]

I had to go land-

I've always wanted to see a Legendary Land that you tap discard your hand: Draw a card.

[xouman]

I had to go land-

I've always wanted to see a Legendary Land that you tap discard your hand: Draw a card.

Another dredge tool? While it's far worse than bazaar, it can dredge on T1 as you have some dredger in hand. If you find a narco and had a therapy in hand... seems pretty helpy.




I want a creature. A red creature if possible :p I miss some 2CC solid drop as snapcaster, confidant, thalia or tarmo. Welder or Magus of the moon are solid but not as good.

If not, an enchantment would be nice, as there are few relevant enchantments imho. Oath is probably the only that sees relevant play, along with leyline of the void and stony silence in some metagames. There are Necropotences, bargains, remoras, blood moons... but they are far less relevant than creatures, artifacts, sorceries/instants and obv lands.

[Ten-Ten]

I voted land.  i want to see a land that exiles itself to exile a non-land, non-creature permanent

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

In my opinion, the card that is needed against Workshop in Vintage has the following text:

Channel -- (R/G): Destroy target artifact. (Discard this card and pay either R or G: Destroy target artifact).

The rest of the card could be anything.

I hear this suggestion often. I feel like the uncountable shatter is too good against blue decks. Fow's already been taking a lot of hits recently. Then winning decks I've been seeing are shop, burning long, and dredge.  Obviously I'm stating that I don't think vault key is a problem; some might disagree.

[Smmenen]

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.  I recommend that we submit a card that can do something about Shops.

What are ideas for the best possible anti-Shop card? 

* A free blue card that can only counter artifacts?

* A land that can produce more than one mana if your opponent has two or more artifacts in play? 

Lol, coming from a Mage who claims their singleton Oath combo deck stomps Workshops... Hilarious.

Huh? Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.

[A.-1.]

You can't realistically hope that Wizards would print something specifically for Vintage. The closest thing might be some over-costed Timmy card that's good in EDH and a fringe playable in our format. That's why I voted for Creature. I'm thinking something along the lines of Uktabi Kong - a non-artifact creature that can be cheated into play via Oath or Show and Tell.

[Smmenen]

You can't realistically hope that Wizards would print something specifically for Vintage. The closest thing might be some over-costed Timmy card that's good in EDH and a fringe playable in our format. That's why I voted for Creature. I'm thinking something along the lines of Uktabi Kong - a non-artifact creature that can be cheated into play via Oath or Show and Tell.

If we are organized we can push a card in that direction.

[Smmenen]

Land won't get enough votes to win. A vote for land is like a vote for Ron Paul.  It won't win and it will only make it easier for something else to win. 

Land is a wasted vote

[Stormanimagus]

It takes creativity, but there are certainly ways to print cards that are relevant in Vintage AND Standard AND Modern (I'm looking at you Qasali Pridemage). I think it just takes some well thought through design. I personally voted for creature as I'd like to see a deck like my Human deck get the bump it needs to succeed at a higher level.

Since Human reanimator is a force in Standard perhaps a Human that hoses the Graveyard? but somehow affects the shop matchup as well?

Or a Human that hoses artifacts and has the clause of GD cage of creatures coming into play?

I think it's safe to print a bear (1W more than likely) that is a 2/2 or a 1/3 (I like 1/3 better but that's just me an my hatred for pyroclasm) that does some combination of the following:

1. Creatures can't enter the battlefield from Graveyards or Libraries. (Hoses the Standard Reanimator list pretty hard as well as niche cards like Unexpected Results etc.)

2. Activated abilities of planeswalkers can't be activated. (definitely relevant in standard)

3. Activated abilities of artifacts can't be activated (obviously this wouldn't get the nod as it doesn't do much for standard)

4. Each player with 3 artifacts in play may not cast additional artifact spells.

5. 1, Sac: Exile target artifact/enchantment and each artifact/enchantment with the same name as that artifact/enchantment.

I think any of those 2 of those abilities would be fine on a bear and would add such amazing utility.

Let me know if you think it would be too broken to slap too of those on a card and which ones are too broken and maybe we can adjust them a bit.

-Storm

[Twaun007]

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.  I recommend that we submit a card that can do something about Shops.

What are ideas for the best possible anti-Shop card?  

* A free blue card that can only counter artifacts?

* A land that can produce more than one mana if your opponent has two or more artifacts in play?  

Lol, coming from a Mage who claims their singleton Oath combo deck stomps Workshops... Hilarious.

Huh? Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.

Steve, your Burning Long thread was riddled with comments about the matchup, but lets focus on what's important... promoting this card creation/voting to the eternal masses.  

I'd like to know the European's take on the subject since their metagame is quite different.

[Prospero]

Land won't get enough votes to win. A vote for land is like a vote for Ron Paul.  It won't win and it will only make it easier for something else to win.  

Land is a wasted vote

If this thread is going to continue, you're going to need to actually back up what you say with more than comments like 'land is a wasted vote'.  Given the incredible popularity of EDH, it seems reasonable to assume that there is a land that could be printed, and would see play in most, if not all, EDH decks.  How about Command Tower, Steve?  Is that not a card that you see played in nearly, if not all EDH decks?  Are you of the opinion that EDH players don't want more fixing?  

If you believe that there is a problem, then you need to explain what you think the problem is, why it's a problem, and then look to persuade the community that you're right.  If you have a problem with the state of Vintage, then you should start a thread in the Vintage Issues forum.  The General Community Discussion forum is not the place for the discussion of perceived issues with Vintage.  If you'd like to theorize, in depth, about possible cards, then I'd recommend going to the Card Creation forum.  

This thread won't be allowed to degenerate into an argument over the perceived state of Vintage, and what everybody would like to hose because they don't enjoy playing against it.  If we hit that point, this thread will be locked.

[Smmenen]

Please go vote for Instant/Sorcery.  I recommend that we submit a card that can do something about Shops.

What are ideas for the best possible anti-Shop card?  

* A free blue card that can only counter artifacts?

* A land that can produce more than one mana if your opponent has two or more artifacts in play?  

Lol, coming from a Mage who claims their singleton Oath combo deck stomps Workshops... Hilarious.

Huh? Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.

Steve, your Burning Long thread was riddled with comments about the matchup, but lets focus on what's important... promoting this card creation/voting to the eternal masses.  

Comments about a matchup does not equate with a claim about stomping. I never said my deck stomps Shops. That's ridiculous.

Land won't get enough votes to win. A vote for land is like a vote for Ron Paul.  It won't win and it will only make it easier for something else to win.  

Land is a wasted vote

If this thread is going to continue, you're going to need to actually back up what you say with more than comments like 'land is a wasted vote'.  Given the incredible popularity of EDH, it seems reasonable to assume that there is a land that could be printed, and would see play in most, if not all, EDH decks.  How about Command Tower, Steve?  Is that not a card that you see played in nearly, if not all EDH decks?  Are you of the opinion that EDH players don't want more fixing?  

If you believe that there is a problem, then you need to explain what you think the problem is, why it's a problem, and then look to persuade the community that you're right.  If you have a problem with the state of Vintage, then you should start a thread in the Vintage Issues forum.  The General Community Discussion forum is not the place for the discussion of perceived issues with Vintage.  If you'd like to theorize, in depth, about possible cards, then I'd recommend going to the Card Creation forum.  

This thread won't be allowed to degenerate into an argument over the perceived state of Vintage, and what everybody would like to hose because they don't enjoy playing against it.  If we hit that point, this thread will be locked.

I believe a land is a wasted vote because creatures will be the highest likely vote getter.  In order to not let creatures win, we have to all put our votes behind something that can defeat creature.

I don't think land can defeat creature, although I know nothing about EDH or the number of players who play it.

[mikekilljoy]

I believe a land is a wasted vote because creatures will be the highest likely vote getter.  In order to not let creatures win, we have to all put our votes behind something that can defeat creature.

I don't think land can defeat creature, although I know nothing about EDH or the number of players who play it.

So, you are making a comment about something you know nothing about? That's fine, just know that it is the second most played "constructed" format the game has right now, behind standard.

As someone who knows a ton about Commander, I will say that the casual crowd loves lands that can so plenty of things. Not to mention, most players love playign with non-basic lands. For me, the fewer basic lands, the better my decks are.

I voted for land myself, as we have seen an instant/sorcery that stunk, we have seen a really broken artifact for Vintage (Crucible of Worlds), and we have seen a creature that can be debated on it's current state. Enchantments don't excite me at all, so land was the logical vote.

[Smmenen]

I believe a land is a wasted vote because creatures will be the highest likely vote getter.  In order to not let creatures win, we have to all put our votes behind something that can defeat creature.

I don't think land can defeat creature, although I know nothing about EDH or the number of players who play it.

So, you are making a comment about something you know nothing about? That's fine, just know that it is the second most played "constructed" format the game has right now, behind standard.

No, I'm not making a comment about something I know nothing about.   My assessment is not about EDH, but about where I predict the voting will go.

As you already pointed out, Standard is the most popular format, and my knowledge of Standard players suggests that most or at least a strong plurality will vote for "creature."   Therefore, my knowledge or lack thereof of EDH is completely irrelevant (I didn't know what Command Tower even was until just now)

All that matters is that we defeat creature.  In an open primary, like this one, the only way we can defeat creature is to organize around one non-creature category.  If we split our votes, then we will lose to creature.  

That's why I say that a vote for land is essentially a vote for creature.  It's not going to win, but it will help creature win a plurality.  

[Smmenen]

To elaborate for those who don't understand the mechanics of voting:

This is a 5 way race, with the winner likely getting a plurality of the vote.

For example, if the vote splits as follows:

Enchantment 10%
Land - 19%
Artifact - 20%
Instant/Sorcery 25%
Creature 26%

Creature wins.

The goal in a vote like this is to defeat creature.    The only way to do that is to either 1) take votes away from creature (which isn't possible unles syou can persuade standard players) or 2) organize around a category that can defeat creature.  I think Instant/Sorcery is the only category that can do that.  

I don't think Land can do that.   It might get alot of votes, but it's not capable of winning enough segments of the Magic community to overtake creature.  That's what I believe based upon my knowledge of Magic and Magic players.  

[DubDub]

All that matters is that we defeat creature.

Why?

Edit: Judging from comments on TheSource, you feel that a creature will be 'made terrible' by standard players.  I'm not sure what the case for that conclusion is though.

And anyway, the poll on MTGSalvation is showing Land with a pretty healthy lead (a lead probably not affected by any organizing of this site's users):
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=495588

As of this post, land has 36%+ of MTGS's vote, and second place is Enchantment at 22%, only 19% are reporting having voted Creature.  Perhaps your ignorance of EDH is relevant?

/I voted for Land.