You Make The Card 4 - Design A Magic Card For Vintage

[Stormanimagus]

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that making some uber-hoser card is a bad idea and won't help any format.

The most brilliant printings are cards that are elegant in their simplicity and unique-ness. This is why Crucible of Worlds was such a success. It was printed at a very playable casting cost for Vintage and had an effect the game had never seen before. Also, Crucible of Worlds COULD be construed as a "hate-card" but it is also a potential combo card (I'm looking at you F-Bond) and an aggro card (Buried Ruin and Mishra's Factory have something to say about this). The fact that it has found it's way into a deck that DOESN'T run Mishra's Workshop (Landstill as a mainstay 1-2 of) is a testament to the power of the effect it provides.

My issue with R & D recently has mainly been the lack of creativity in new printings and the need for a page of reminder text just to understand what a card/ability fully does. Also, instead of printing new and unique mechanics that could have relevance in Vintage (i.e 'Storm' or 'Dredge'), they seem to simply be content with pasting 2 previously known effects onto 1 card in order to create the tier 1 power/hate cards that we currently play.

At the end of the day, I'm going to play the best cards available to me, regardless. I just wish some of those cards harkened back to the simplicity of cards like Crucible of Worlds or Dark Ritual.

Ok, onto my reasons for wanting enchantment over land:

I would like Enchantment to win in this Run-off simply because I'm worried that whatever the Magic community comes up with for Land will be abused to shit by shops/landstill. I don't think either of those archetypes need a huge boost right now. Any deck that can easily drop turn 1 Crucible is not a deck I want to give a powerful land toy to.

If we could design a card that is a land that shops CAN'T abuse, I'd be happy to entertain that idea, but I'm just not seeing it

Another huge reason I'd like enchantment to win is because it is so hard to kill in Vintage. Players run Nature's Claim and Echoing Truth on occasion but really the only other played card that could nuke enchantments is Trygon Predator. I like resilient cards in my card pool and Enchantments need a bump IMO.

What I'd like to put forth to the community IF enchantment is chosen is the following parameters to consider for Vintage playability:

1. Casting Cost - Please can we find a way to vote in an enchantment that is only  , , , , in cost or   , , , , ? I'm not seeing a way to make it easily Vintage playable otherwise. Of course a Leyline is the exception here.

2. Can we keep it to 1 (mayyybe 2) abilities on the printed card?

3. Can we make sure it'll hit the table once in a while? (i.e if we already see that it'll want to go in a deck sans FoW can we make it uncounterable? or something?)

4. Can we not simply make it a hate card?

5. If we are going to break the above rules can we make sure we do it such that the card will still be playable?

Anyway, please shoot ideas to me on here or via PM, and I'll try to keep a list of ones that seem most likely/playable.

-Storm

[quicksilvervii]

Ideally, I would like the enchantment, should it win, to either A) be a Leyline, or B) Cost 1(C) [that is, one colorless, and another color.  Ideally hybrid to have some reach and accessibility).  It would still be a turn 1 play, have a potentially more powerful effect than 1 mana, and not get hit by mental misstep.  It also puts it a little bit out of reach for dredge, which, let's face it, doesn't really have any color restrictions (just CC restrictions).

Still blowing the trumpet for land, though.

[xouman]

I think none of those would see any Vintage play. Look at my list of proposed enchantments. Those are on the power level needed to see play in Vintage.

-Storm

indeed, yours are far more powerful. however leylines are quite weird, being great cards in the starting hand, and rubbish after first draw.

Creating a "plain" hate card is a bit awkward for a "public card". For me it should be a different card, with a unique effect, and even it could attack resources, it shouldn't be an answer to current bombs or gameplays.

[DubDub]

This is why Crucible of Worlds was such a success.

...

Any deck that can easily drop turn 1 Crucible is not a deck I want to give a powerful land toy to.

Ummm, what?  Crucible is a success that is so dangerous we shouldn't have R&D move forward with a land in this contest...?

As far as lands/enchantments that tackle artifacts go, Leyline of Flux and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for artifacts would both be excellent.

I would give a 0.0% chance that either of those cards can emerge from this YMTC#4 process.  They're too narrow.  Standard, Modern, Legacy don't or only barely care about artifacts.

I really think any land is going to be heavily influenced by Commander, e.g.

Command Stronghold
Land
Command Stronghold doesn't untap as long as you control a legendary creature card.
T: add 1 to your mana pool.
T: add two mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool, use this mana only to cast legendary creature cards.

Fixing mana and accelling out your general is desirable for most EDH decks, but the drawback is real.  And it pushes you in the direction of playing fewer legends in your deck who aren't your general.

[Stormanimagus]

This is why Crucible of Worlds was such a success.

...

Any deck that can easily drop turn 1 Crucible is not a deck I want to give a powerful land toy to.

Ummm, what?  Crucible is a success that is so dangerous we shouldn't have R&D move forward with a land in this contest...?

As far as lands/enchantments that tackle artifacts go, Leyline of Flux and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for artifacts would both be excellent.

I would give a 0.0% chance that either of those cards can emerge from this YMTC#4 process.  They're too narrow.  Standard, Modern, Legacy don't or only barely care about artifacts.

I really think any land is going to be heavily influenced by Commander, e.g.

Command Stronghold
Land
Command Stronghold doesn't untap as long as you control a legendary creature card.
T: add 1 to your mana pool.
T: add two mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool, use this mana only to cast legendary creature cards.

Fixing mana and accelling out your general is desirable for most EDH decks, but the drawback is real.  And it pushes you in the direction of playing fewer legends in your deck who aren't your general.

Let me clarify:

There is basically 0% chance of an enchantment that we would come up with being abusable IN shops.

There is absolutely the potential for a land card to be abusable in Shops and a likelihood for it to be MOST abusable in Shops.

This is why I favor Enchantment over Land.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's nothing wrong or awful about "uber hosers." See: Grafdigger's Cage.

[Stormanimagus]

There's nothing wrong or awful about "uber hosers." See: Grafdigger's Cage.

Yes, but I don't find GD Cage to be a super interesting card. Great utility and def. played, but not interesting. I want an interesting card that is ALSO very good. I want it all!

[vaughnbros]

There is basically 0% chance of an enchantment that we would come up with being abusable IN vintage.

Fixed that for you.  There are currently no enchantments that are legal in other formats and are abused in vintage.  Its pretty much guaranteed that an enchantment is going to cost too much mana for this format.

There's nothing wrong or awful about "uber hosers." See: Grafdigger's Cage.

Except that they are mainly sideboard cards and therefore won't even get selected by wizards to be voted on.

[John Cox]

They could make a hoser that is vintage playable and see play in other formats. Say a crucible of worlds for . That card would break you out of a waste lock and guarantee land drops with fetchlands. A perfect card against workshops.

There's nothing wrong or awful about "uber hosers." See: Grafdigger's Cage.

Except that they are mainly sideboard cards and therefore won't even get selected by wizards to be voted on.

[quicksilvervii]

They could make a hoser that is vintage playable and see play in other formats. Say a crucible of worlds for . That card would break you out of a waste lock and guarantee land drops with fetchlands. A perfect card against workshops.

There's nothing wrong or awful about "uber hosers." See: Grafdigger's Cage.

Except that they are mainly sideboard cards and therefore won't even get selected by wizards to be voted on.

What about an enchantment that costs That got you lands?  Or one that cost that just puts a 7/7 lifelinker with flying into play attached to a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

I feel like this is all just anti-shops stuff that already exists.

Howabout being creative, maybe trying to make a (GASP) NEW archetype?

[AmbivalentDuck]

If you just want raw power, you can just create a resource conversion map.

Enchantments:
Necropotence and Bargain: life -> cards
Oath: Upkeeps -> the game's best critters
Standstill: board advantage -> Ancestral
Survival: G mana -> repeatable tutor for critters/grave stocking
Recurring Nightmare: Repeatable reanimation
Fastbond: Life -> land drops
Sneak Attack: R -> game's best critters
Various: Mana -> cards

At present, we have no maps to large artifacts. So, Oath of Tinker, Tinker Attack, and/or Tinkerpotence?

[Stormanimagus]

They could make a hoser that is vintage playable and see play in other formats. Say a crucible of worlds for . That card would break you out of a waste lock and guarantee land drops with fetchlands. A perfect card against workshops.

There's nothing wrong or awful about "uber hosers." See: Grafdigger's Cage.

Except that they are mainly sideboard cards and therefore won't even get selected by wizards to be voted on.

What about an enchantment that costs That got you lands?  Or one that cost that just puts a 7/7 lifelinker with flying into play attached to a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

I feel like this is all just anti-shops stuff that already exists.

Howabout being creative, maybe trying to make a (GASP) NEW archetype?

This is why I started to push the Leyline idea so heavily. I already had an interesting working shell for a new archetype involving many leylines. It started as such:

4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of Anticipation (not a definite include)
4 Replenish
2-3 Oblivion Ring
4 Opalessence
2-4 Bazaar of Baghdad (Again, not a def. include)
3-4 Sterling Grove

This deck, with 1 more busted leyline could maybe be a thing. It has free cards that are contingent on how you mulled, but reap a huge reward via Serra's Sanctum and Replenish. Again, this might be a stretch, but it has been on the back-burner for me for a while and another leyline (preferably white for hardcastability with Sanctum) could make it maybe viable.

If you are looking for a new archetype this is about as new as they come. Heck, you could go mono-white and throw in 4 Land Tax for good measure as a draw engine/card thinning. In that case you'd have to cut Sterling Grove more than likely (or just run many basics), but you'd never be mana screwed.

Just food for thought.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

Play Fair W/G
Enchantment
Alternate costs cannot be paid. Mana costs cannot be modified. If a nonland permanent would produce mana, instead it does not. If a land would produce more than one mana, it instead produces one mana.

I love it.  It accomplishes exactly what Null Rod and Chalice of the Void were aiming for by enabling another constraining "pillar" that doesn't have so many easy work-arounds. 

A lot of the card ideas in this thread are interesting and many are better suited for the Eternal-only expansions like Planechase and Commander. 

I voted for creature in the first round and land this time.  Rather than a narrow hate card, the best possibilities are those that alter fundamental rules of the game, like Crucible of Worlds.  One idea that came to mind was a land whose output depended on whose turn was being played. 

Dr. Jekyll's Basement
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.  Use this ability only during an opponent's turn.  If that mana is used to pay for a Creature or Sorcery, treat that spell as though it had Flash. 

[xouman]

What about a land like:

Anti-Mishra's Workshop
Add 3 mana to your mana pool. Use that mana only for non-artifact spells.

Just joking, it would be crazy in vintage and crush non-vintage formats, probably.



inquisition conclave UW
enchantment
When inquisition conclave came into play name 3 different cards. the first time each of these cards is played, counter it.

Quite a blow after seen the opponent's hand. Not strictly better than meddling mage though, but quite playable in fish.



Viashino's law 1R
enchantment
All creatures have haste. At the end of turn, return all creatures to they owner's hand.

unplayable in vintage. still golems or revokers are not in play during your turn, and mishra's go to hand all the time. BSC is even better, but only if there is no blocker. it shuts confidant, but snapcaster is improved, and probably vendillion. dredge has a easier blow with tokens, but narcos and bloodghasts go to the hand all the time. Probably interesting card for other formats.


Punishment for the living 1B
enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep put a counter on PFTL.
Creatures with power greater than PFTL counters can't be untapped.
At the end of each turn, put a -1/-1 counter on tapped creatures that player controls.

Not relevant to vintage, but i like to share my stupid ideas.



Blood for waste 1R
When a player puts a card in its graveyard loses 1 life.

Very aggresive with milling strategies. Nice tool against oath or dredge, isn't it? That's the card I like the most, I'm not sure if it's too broken. Maybe a clause saying "... if cards put in the grave are not because of opponent's effect blablabla" to prevent active milling, and just "punish" fetchlands, instants/sorceries and dredge/oath...

[DubDub]

Dr. Jekyll's Basement
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.  Use this ability only during an opponent's turn.  If that mana is used to pay for a Creature or Sorcery, treat that spell as though it had Flash.

That's pretty broken.  Compare to the other lands that give flash:
Alchemist's Refuge
Winding Canyons

Both of those have an activation cost to turn on the flash!
I like the idea of adding mana of any color on an opponent's turn only, but restricting it to things that have flash, or are instants, or are instant speed abilities' activation costs seems ok without adding Quicken on a stick.

inquisition conclave UW
enchantment
When inquisition conclave came into play name 3 different cards. the first time each of these cards is played, counter it.

This is also pretty broken.  Compare to Decree of Silence.  Not to mention that you can name Krosan Grip and the two central cards of the opponent's deck, and then counter everything else with Force etc.  Plus you start to turn off a ton of things once this is down in multiples.

[Wagner]

Simple land idea.

Fast-land
When Fast-land comes into play you may put a land card from your hand into play.
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.

Ok early game, great in multiple, craptastic late game. Or replace last clause with "you may play another land card this turn" to make it really good with Crucible and Y. Will.

[brianpk80]

That's pretty broken.  Compare to the other lands that give flash:
Alchemist's Refuge
Winding Canyons

Both of those have an activation cost to turn on the flash!
I like the idea of adding mana of any color on an opponent's turn only, but restricting it to things that have flash, or are instants, or are instant speed abilities' activation costs seems ok without adding Quicken on a stick.

It's powerful but not necessarily broken.  Comparing favorably to Winding Canyons doesn't say much.  Neither Canyons nor Refuge took off in Vintage and it's often the case that when an ability or mechanic is less appealing in an earlier form, it can get a boost in a modern upgrade.  Qasali Pridgemage > Viridian Zealot, Honor of the Pure > Crusade, Ancient Grudge > Shatter.  

It definitely would not break or even noticeably impact the format.  Few decks want a mana base that includes something that cannot be fetched, is exposed to Wasteland, and can't add colored mana right off the bat.  It might enable a new deck that reaps advantages by casting Wheel of Fortune, Balance, Windfall, or Timetwister during an opponent's turn, but if doing so were that advantageous, Quicken would see more play.  Creature decks would be able to run Vial-tricks without AEther Vial and that wouldn't exactly be a bad thing.  With all the other rampant brokenness in T1, it's a safe bet that flashing in a Thalia or Noble Hierarch isn't going to be that terrible of a menace.  

Viashino's law 1R
enchantment
All creatures have haste. At the end of turn, return all creatures to they owner's hand.

This one gets 5 stars for effect and for flavor.  I remember those old Viashino creatures.  Superb.  

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm looking more for a land like:

Tabernacle of Destruction
T: add 1 to your mana pool
W, T, sacrifice: Exile target creature with power 3 or less
U, T, sacrifice: draw 2 cards
R, T, sacrifice: discard your hand, then draw that many cards
G, T, sacrifice: Destroy target artifact or enchantment
B, T, sacrifice: Return target permanent with cc0 from your graveyard to the battlefield


Not sure if there are any decks out there that could use a card like that, but it would be fun.  I'm sure at least one of those abilities would be useful somewhere.

[John Cox]

I'm looking more for a land like:

Tabernacle of Destruction
T: add 1 to your mana pool
W, T, sacrifice: Exile target creature with power 3 or less
U, T, sacrifice: draw 2 cards
R, T, sacrifice: discard your hand, then draw that many cards
G, T, sacrifice: Destroy target artifact or enchantment
B, T, sacrifice: Return target permanent with cc0 from your graveyard to the battlefield


Not sure if there are any decks out there that could use a card like that, but it would be fun.  I'm sure at least one of those abilities would be useful somewhere.

That's way too strong.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Could help dredge.  With all the grave hate, dredge needs some help.  It's barely a contender anymore.  This also hates on shops with its G,T, sac effect, so that's fair, right?

[Stormanimagus]

I think I may have just had an epiphany!

Here's a thought on an enchantment:


Realm of Peace       1 /

Enchantment

Realm of Peace cannot be countered by spells or abilities.

Spells no longer use the stack (They cannot be the target of spells or abilities and players do not pass priority upon resolution.)


I wonder if this card would be too good? What do you all think it would do? It was just a thought experiment. Is there a way to word it more elegantly than that? Do I have my rules straight there and do I cover everything needed in the reminder text?

-Storm

Note: I could also make this more powerful by making it only apply to you or less powerful by making it able to be countered, but I'm not sure either is a more fair option than this one.

[psyburat]

I think I may have just had an epiphany!

Here's a thought on an enchantment:


Realm of Peace       1 /

Enchantment

Realm of Peace cannot be countered by spells or abilities.

Spells no longer use the stack (They cannot be the target of spells or abilities and players do not pass priority upon resolution.)


I wonder if this card would be too good? What do you all think it would do? It was just a thought experiment. Is there a way to word it more elegantly than that? Do I have my rules straight there and do I cover everything needed in the reminder text?

-Storm

Note: I could also make this more powerful by making it only apply to you or less powerful by making it able to be countered, but I'm not sure either is a more fair option than this one.

A cleaner, identical wording for the second ability would be "All spells have split second".

[mikekilljoy]

I think I may have just had an epiphany!

Here's a thought on an enchantment:


Realm of Peace       1 /

Enchantment

Realm of Peace cannot be countered by spells or abilities.

Spells no longer use the stack (They cannot be the target of spells or abilities and players do not pass priority upon resolution.)


I wonder if this card would be too good? What do you all think it would do? It was just a thought experiment. Is there a way to word it more elegantly than that? Do I have my rules straight there and do I cover everything needed in the reminder text?

-Storm

Note: I could also make this more powerful by making it only apply to you or less powerful by making it able to be countered, but I'm not sure either is a more fair option than this one.

A cleaner, identical wording for the second ability would be "All spells have split second".

Now that's way too strong.

[KrauserKrauser]

 It is much more elegant and recognizable, but I agree that would be way too strong to be printed.

Maybe at 3cmc.

[vaughnbros]

I'm looking more for a land like:

Tabernacle of Destruction
T: add 1 to your mana pool
W, T, sacrifice: Exile target creature with power 3 or less
U, T, sacrifice: draw 2 cards
R, T, sacrifice: discard your hand, then draw that many cards
G, T, sacrifice: Destroy target artifact or enchantment
B, T, sacrifice: Return target permanent with cc0 from your graveyard to the battlefield


Not sure if there are any decks out there that could use a card like that, but it would be fun.  I'm sure at least one of those abilities would be useful somewhere.

I like the idea of this type of land a lot, but I do think you made it far too overpowered.  Maybe something like...

Tabernacle of Destruction
Legendary
T: Each player adds 1 mana to their mana pool.
W, T, sacrifice: Each player sacrifices an enchantment.
U, T, sacrifice: Each player draws a card.
R, T, sacrifice: Each player sacrifices an artifact.
G, T, sacrifice: Each player gains 5 life.
B, T, sacrifice: Each player sacrifices a creature.

I'm not sure if this is still too broken since its still an auto include 4 of in dredge, and definitely playable in landstill.  However, outside of vintage essentially losing a land drop to activate it and board parity should make the card balanced.  I think something like this is also very marketable to multi-player formats.  

[Stormanimagus]

Ok, it you're all agreed that that is way too strong (I am still not sure it is and btw, it is not identical to say "all spells have split second" as those spells can still be countered by Chalice of the Void and this would theoretically prevent that) let me posit a new card that could sprout a new mechanic:

Timefreeze         /

Enchantment

Split Second

Whenever a player casts a spell that spell remains on the stack until the stack contains 6 spells. When it does, resolve the stack in reverse order (the last spell cast is the last spell to resolve.)


Perhaps this card could become infuriating, but I think it would be an interesting mechanic. Eventually we might be able to say this card has "Freeze 6" or something like that if the ability caught on. Could it be that "Freeze 5" or "Freeze 4" might be more reasonable?

Let me know what you think.

-Storm

[Wagner]

Ok, it you're all agreed that that is way too strong (I am still not sure it is and btw, it is not identical to say "all spells have split second" as those spells can still be countered by Chalice of the Void and this would theoretically prevent that) let me posit a new card that could sprout a new mechanic:

Timefreeze         /

Enchantment

Split Second

Whenever a player casts a spell that spell remains on the stack until the stack contains 6 spells. When it does, resolve the stack in reverse order (the last spell cast is the last spell to resolve.)


Perhaps this card could become infuriating, but I think it would be an interesting mechanic. Eventually we might be able to say this card has "Freeze 6" or something like that if the ability caught on. Could it be that "Freeze 5" or "Freeze 4" might be more reasonable?

Let me know what you think.

-Storm

Interesting idea, but way too good. In any aggressive deck, it's basically a one-sided Decree of Silence. You drop 2 critters, drop this and wait as the next 4-6 spells your opponent casts do nothing. If he does manage to have an answer to your treat, it really better be the 1st one on the stack, otherwise he'll have to play 2-6 more spells to have it resolve.

Meanwhile you just put man-lands and beat face.

[Stormanimagus]

Could making it do 3 or 4 make it fair? I mean, they can just dump moxen into it, and remember, none of the spells are countered like with decree, so they will eventually resolve.

-Storm

[xouman]

I think I may have just had an epiphany!

Here's a thought on an enchantment:


Realm of Peace       1 /

Enchantment

Realm of Peace cannot be countered by spells or abilities.

Spells no longer use the stack (They cannot be the target of spells or abilities and players do not pass priority upon resolution.)

This is similar to

Realm of Peace       1 /
Enchantment
Split second
Spells have Split second.


I thought of a similar effect when I "designed" the land that made spells directly played by paying X, but didn't think about put the card split second itself (and it has sense, good point). for non-eternal is probably too narrow, but it's interesting, really interesting. Idk if white/green are the most suitable colours for Split second, but White Thrash for example could test this card.


What about an eon hub enchantified:

neweon hub  
Players skip upkeep phase.

eon hub saw very very little play, too slow, or too narrow. Still this card is not sexy enough.


What about this crazy idea?

inverse world  
Turn phases are inverted.


 So you will start your turn discarding your hand. then a main phase, combat phase, draw a card, upkeep, and untap. Practical uses? Tangle gets nullified, while smokestack gets way better. Oath creature gets into play directly, but can't attack or anything. I'm not sure, but a lot of cards would be affected (necropotence anyone? arcane denial...). Probably there would be new combos, at least in other formats.


A humillity for instants and/or sorceries?

mages bane 2GG
enchantment
All sorcery and/or instant spells change their actions for "draw a card".



Now a card that seems a good idea

stop the machines 1G
enchantment
Artifact creatures cannot attack


Solution against MUD (without stacks or mutavaults), BSC, affinities... However feels weak for a card designed by community, but it would be a great rare card in a common set.

[brianpk80]

Could making it do 3 or 4 make it fair? I mean, they can just dump moxen into it, and remember, none of the spells are countered like with decree, so they will eventually resolve.

-Storm

Making it 3 spells would be interesting.  I've never heard of anything quite like this Freeze mechanic; I think it's very original.  I wouldn't be too concerned with whether or not it's considered "fair" for Vintage.  There's this odd inconsistency we find sometimes where an 2-CC artifact that untaps to win the game and an 11/11 Trample, Infect, Indestructible for 2U are perfectly acceptable but a small creature that could help preempt those tactics is considered uber broken and "unfair." Projection, perhaps.