|
|
KIP_NZ
Super Cool
Basic User
Posts: 96
|
 |
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2013, 02:38:27 am » |
|
Awesome, thanks again to you & Kevin!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Stormanimagus
|
|
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2013, 02:59:43 am » |
|
Guys,
If you are shooting for creating a unique card why can't enchantment be that card?
Enchantments could be extremely Vintage playable cause they are one of the hardest card types to remove from the battlefield. Since there isn't any Power/Toughness to worry about then a unique effect is very easy to slap on an enchantment. I think Enchantment could fit a very important niche in Vintage. I'm not sure WHY I think this, but I think the design space is there for either:
1. A hoser enchantment (ala Stony Silence)
2. A Leyline (playable on turn 0)
3. Something totally unique.
-Storm
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
|
|
|
|
John Cox
|
|
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2013, 03:02:30 am » |
|
Great podcast, Just one comment, You spent some time talking about people skipping voting for their favourite card type and instead voting strategically. I think we can safely say everyone just wants a vintage playable and has very little lean towards any other card type. IE I don't think the whole "Don't vote for enchantment just because you like enchantments" really matters, all anyone wants to see is a playable. For those who were wondering here's the pictures for the art from make the card 3: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/ymtc31 |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 03:05:31 am by John Cox »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2013, 04:06:54 pm » |
|
One thing we ignored is that Leylines are definitely Vintage playable, and they are enchantments. A Leyline would be awesome.
The point, though, about the need for a run-off remains -- and I'm really, really happy Wizards decided to have one (we obviously recorded before we found out they'd do a run-off.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 01:01:25 am » |
|
This podcast was... inconsistent. I enjoyed the history lesson on prior You Make The Card, but after you guys finished that, you just sort of went off the deep end into voting and game theory. Didn't have much to do with Vintage or with Magic necessarily. Oh Vintage Scenarios, wherefore art thou? I miss you so.
It doesn't help that the voting analysis was just sorta screwy. Sure, yes, strategic voting is a thing. That's why people vote for John McCain instead of Ron Paul, that's all true. But that only works if you know clearly who the major party candidate is in the election. When you're voting on Magic cards, all that goes out the window. I think trying to figure out which of the categories will be the most popular is a fool's errand because you have no data on what people want, just intuition. And, as we saw here, even very informed intuition can be simply wrong (creature was not one of the top choices). Even worse, you don't know how many people are voting strategically themselves. You don't have any way to figure out which selection is the Republican and which one is the Green Party.
So just vote what you want.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2013, 10:14:17 pm » |
|
We did have data. We looked at previous voting results.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Stormanimagus
|
|
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 11:49:45 am » |
|
We did have data. We looked at previous voting results.
Steve, there have been 3 of these previously. There have been about 50+ presidents and countless more congressional elections? I don't think you can say that previous voting results tell you much in this case. For all you know people have just been voting on "what hasn't been picked yet" in the past. You cannot say definitively what such data means. You tend to approach everything as a numbers game like a lawyer, but the problem is this game isn't JUST a numbers game. It is a game of gut instinct as well and players desire cards with flavor and functionality based on very little that you can prove logically. I think you endeavoring to extract the rational choice from this exercise is noble, but also fruitless. -Storm |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
|
|
|
|
|
|
BC
|
|
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2013, 04:29:29 pm » |
|
There have been about 50+ presidents and countless more congressional elections?
LOL to not knowing how many presidents there have been. That's awesome. Back to the topic: What color would an enchantment have to be to be potentially Vintage playable? The obvious answer is blue, but I would guess that the "Playable Enchantments : Playable Cards in this Color" ratio is pretty low for blue. I will probably vote for black. Try to get something with insane card draw along a similar vein as Necropotence or Yawg Bargain. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
psyburat
Adepts
Basic User
Posts: 463
Mike Noble
|
|
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2013, 04:30:52 pm » |
|
Are you printing the shirts? My interest certainly plummeted with the enchantment vote. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
How very me of you.
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2013, 05:52:35 pm » |
|
There have been about 50+ presidents and countless more congressional elections?
LOL to not knowing how many presidents there have been. That's awesome. Back to the topic: What color would an enchantment have to be to be potentially Vintage playable? The obvious answer is blue, but I would guess that the "Playable Enchantments : Playable Cards in this Color" ratio is pretty low for blue. I will probably vote for black. Try to get something with insane card draw along a similar vein as Necropotence or Yawg Bargain. Any Leyline has a decent chance of being Vintage playable. There are 9 different Leylines, and 5 of which are either Vintage playable or have appeared in a Vintage Top 8. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2013, 05:43:36 pm » |
|
Oh you guys. Doom and gloom. Crapp'n all over enchantments. There's nothing wrong with that card type. It's very easy to imagine vintage-playable enchantments:
Enchantment Crypt
U, Enchantment
Sacrifice Enchantment Crypt: Add 3 to your mana pool.
Or even some potentially playable-but-interesting ones.
Enchantment Mine
BB, Enchantment
During your upkeep, draw a card.
Or new concepts:
Super Engine Enchantment
1GG, Enchantment
Whenever a land is tapped for mana, its controller sacrifices it, but puts it on the bottom of his or her library instead of into his or her graveyard. If he or she does, he or she draws a card. There is no limit to how many lands a player may play during a turn.
All you need is to make the enchantment sufficiently unique or sufficiently powerful and it can have a splash.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Stormanimagus
|
|
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2013, 11:55:34 pm » |
|
100% agree. Everyone who's crapping on enchantment as a card type clearly doesn't think about design much. You can make a powerful card with sufficient imagination in any type.
-Storm
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 02:26:34 am » |
|
We agree. As I already admitted, we completely overlooked the possibility for Leylines for Vintage. That makes enchantments WAY more attractive.
Here's hoping for a new awesome Leyline.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 06:09:47 pm » |
|
It doesn't even have to be a Leyline. It's just that zero is a very vintage playable cost, and several leylines have vintage-relevant effects. There are plenty of non-leyline enchantments that are vintage-playable: Fastbond, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Troy_Costisick
|
|
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 04:40:14 am » |
|
Yeah, I saw that. I thought it was really cool that someone in RnD listened to your podcast. Awesome!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Metman
|
|
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 04:24:17 pm » |
|
Nice job on another podcast gentlemen. My vote is for a white, green, or red, enchantment with a ridiculous engine included. Something that isn't splashable but is easily cast in one of those three colors. The idea is to make an engine in a color that doesn't have much of one without giving a boost to blue and to a lesser extent black. I don't know if it's possible or even if it's a good idea, but I would like to see another pillar created without it being necessarily dominant. I thought the unrestriction of Gush was a step in that direction but still in the 'blue is too strong' camp. I also like the idea of an enchantment being the engine as it's less likely to be answered once resolved until the metegame makes the adjustments.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 05:35:35 pm » |
|
Man, making a new pillar? How does one even DO that? I'm all for it, but I have a hard time seeing how it works. Sounds fun to think about, though.
I don't think we have a good definition of pillar, though. Seems like a way to classify most decks into categories more than anything else. Right now we have these pillars, in order from clear enabler to not clear:
Bazaar of Baghdad (Dredge): Incredibly powerful way to dump lots of cards into the yard fast, and then dredge them, all in the same card. Is an engine because it enables both sides of the Dredge mechanic.
Mishra's Workshop (Shop): This just makes lots of mana for artifacts. That's all. Decks using it also use similar but not as-good cards like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.
Dark Ritual (Combo): This just makes lots of mana in a way that interacts very well with storm and Yawgmoth's Will.
Mana Drain / Force of Will / ??? (Blue): I don't feel like this pillar is very well defined. Drain is hardly used anymore. If anything, Force is the auto-four-of in most blue control builds. This isn't really an enabler... the permission suite is more like a way to keep up with those decks that have stronger enablers. Maybe Dark Confidant or Jace is almost a better representative of this pillar of deck than one of the myriad choices of permission spells.
Null Rod / Stony Silence (Aggo): Is this even a pillar anymore...? I feel like Grafdigger's Cage is almost more important than Rod / Silence nowadays. Anyway, just like the blue decks, this isn't as much an enabler as much as a way that these kind of decks are able to keep up with the enablers in other colors.
Anyway, the point is that a "pillar" seems like it can as much be a hoser as an enabler. Still, Metman appears to have an "enabler" in mind when he suggests an enchantment as a hoser, so let's think about that. Look at Bazaar and Dredge. Bazaar enables Dredge so strongly because it does double duty. Dredge needs a full yard and encourages more draws to turn into dredging, and Bazaar gives it both for free. There is a payoff, because you can win from the graveyard. Is there another effect in Magic that needs two or more conditions satisfied that results in a payoff like this?
I surveyed the keywords in existence, and here's a few. I'm not saying these ideas necessarily need to work with the mechanic at issue, just using them as jumping off points for cards that react favorably in two ways with existing keywords.
Amplify - Wants you to draw lots of creature cards, and encourages you to play them. Payoff is huge fatties.
Suggested Engine - A cheap enchantment that lets you tutor for multiple small creatures at a time and gives them all amplify.
Superswarm
Enchantment, G
When Superswarm comes into play, choose a creature type. Creatures of the chosen type have Amplify.
Sacrifice a creature of the chosen type: Search your library for up to three creatures of the chosen type that cost 1 or less and put them into your hand.
Conspire - Wants you to have lots of creatures to double your spells, and encourages you to hold onto your spells until you have creatures on the board. Payoff is card advantage.
Suggested Engine - A cheap enchantment that makes weenies and rewards you for hanging onto spells until you can Conspire them.
Super Conspire
Enchantment, 2R
Spells you cast have Conspire.
During your upkeep, put a 0/1 red Kobold into play.
Tap a creature you control: Counter target spell that targets you unless its controller pays 1.
Cycling: You want cards that cycle for some effect, then have some way to be useful in the graveyard. Payoff is card advantage.
Suggested Engine - Astral Slide and its ilk tried to make this work from one angle, by increasing the effect of the cycle. They didn't address the other side of it, however. A cheap enchantment that adds an effect to cycling cards, and gives them utility when in the yard.
Super Cycle
Enchantment - 1B
When you cycle a card, you may put a -1/-1 counter on target creature.
Non-land cards with cycling in your graveyard gain flashback with a flashback cost equal to the card's casting cost. Land cards in your graveyard with cycling may be played as if they were in your hand.
Devour - You want creatures in play to devour, and then you want to get a benefit from the devouring.
Suggested Engine - A way to produce food, and an effect that results from the devouring.
Super Devour
Enchantment - RB
When Super Devour comes into play, put two 1/1 Ooze tokens into play.
If you would sacrifice a creature to pay for a Devour cost, put two token copies of the sacrificed creature into play instead.
Forecast - You want to get a benefit from cards you forecast in your hand, and you are encouraged to protect your hand so you can operate from there.
Suggested Engine - Just give everything forecast and some form of hand protection? Scratch that, the hand protection is totally unnecessary for a card that goes infinite with any Ritual effect.
Super Screw You Counter Magic
Enchantment - UWR
Instants and Sorceries in your hand gain Forecast, with a Forecast cost equal to their casting cost and a Forecast effect identical to the text on the card.
Gravestorm - You want to have lots of permanents, and you are encouraged to find large sacrifice outlets. The payoff is the same as the storm mechanic. I love this ability and wish there was more of it. Since it attacks your opponent in a very unique way, this might be a GREAT place to start to make a truly new pillar.
Suggested Engine - Something that gives you permanents to sacrifice, gravestorm, and a sacrifice outlet all in one.
Super Gravestorm
Enchantment - GB
Sacrifice a permanent you control, Pay 1 life: Draw a card.
Cards in your hand gain Gravestorm.
Madness - Here's a mechanic that really hasn't seen it's due in Vintage yet. It wants you to have ways of discarding your cards (just like Dredge) to enable it, but suffers from not having ways to benefit once you use madness.
Suggested Engine - Very similar to Cycling; just staple a discard outlet onto a way to abuse cards you've discarded to the effect.
Super Madness
Enchantment - WR
Discard a card from your hand: You gain 1 life and deal 1 damage to target opponent.
Whenever you discard a card, until end of turn, that card gains Flashback, with a flashback cost equal to its casting cost.
So, that's perhaps a place to start.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 02:47:52 am » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
evouga
|
|
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 11:24:59 am » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 02:17:22 pm » |
|
Why? That's the color least likely to make a splash in Vintage. R&D is very well aware of how powerful that color is already, and the bar for a blue card to be playable is pretty high. Seems like a Vintage playable card would be more likely to result from a unique effect in a color that is currently under-powered. I voted red! Hey, they came up with Crucible of Worlds, didn't they? You just need an idea that tickles all the types of players and to publish it widely. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 02:24:59 am » |
|
Why? That's the color least likely to make a splash in Vintage. R&D is very well aware of how powerful that color is already, and the bar for a blue card to be playable is pretty high. Didn't we address this point in the podcast? Power is not proportional to formats, but relative to them. A card could be broken in Vintage/Type I and unplayable or terrible in Standard/Type II. There are lots of great blue Leylines that would be amazing in Vintage but not see play or be over powered in other formats. In fact, that's already true of them. So I outright reject the idea that just because blue is powerful, that R&D won't make a good Leyline. In fact, I think blue is probably the color where you can most easily have a powerful eternal leyline that is of much more modest power level in other formats. For example: how cool would it be to have a blue leyline like this? Leyline of Scrying 2UU Whenever you play a spell, you may Scrye 2. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
msg67183
|
|
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 02:49:20 am » |
|
I'm sticking with my Leyline idea:
Leyline of the Portal 2BB
If Leyline of the Portal is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
If a player would draw a card, that player skips that draw instead.
At the end of each turn, each player sacrifices a permanent unless he or she discards a card from his or her hand.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Bloomsburg Tournaments: 1 Win 3 Finals 2 Top 4 2 Top 8 Outside Bloomsburg: Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4 Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League. Website for The League: http://tmdvl.github.ioZombies ate your brains! |
|
|
nataz
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 1535
Mighty Mighty Maine-Tone
|
|
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 01:09:42 pm » |
|
Leyline of the portal seems crazy good even if you hard cast it. Compare to stax, braids, or even possessed portal.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I will write Peace on your wings
and you will fly around the world
|
|
|
|
Stormanimagus
|
|
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2013, 01:48:26 pm » |
|
Yeah, I agree. It is a hastily and poorly designed card that basically reads "target luck sack wins the game" cause you are only ever working with opening 7s.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
|
|
|
|
msg67183
|
|
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2013, 02:43:07 pm » |
|
Exactly! It forces players to evaluate hands better. It is also well rounded, not focused on a single deck.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Bloomsburg Tournaments: 1 Win 3 Finals 2 Top 4 2 Top 8 Outside Bloomsburg: Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4 Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League. Website for The League: http://tmdvl.github.ioZombies ate your brains! |
|
|
|
Stormanimagus
|
|
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2013, 03:11:30 pm » |
|
Exactly! It forces players to evaluate hands better. It is also well rounded, not focused on a single deck.
Yeah, but that's terrible. It makes 53 cards in your deck basically irrelevant. It is not an interactive card and it doesn't make games have meaningful choice other than the mulligan. That is not playing magic in my view. That is playing, who can mulligan better. You also can't really design a deck around this. D- for effort msg. You can do better. -Storm |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
—Ursula K. Leguin
|
|
|
|
Smmenen
|
|
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2013, 04:03:07 pm » |
|
I don't want any new prison cards in the form of enchantments. Prison cards are often Vintage playable, but I don't want any more Leylines that do prison like effects. That's the main reason I didn't vote white |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2013, 06:22:28 pm » |
|
I'm sticking with my Leyline idea:
Leyline of the Portal 2BB
If Leyline of the Portal is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
If a player would draw a card, that player skips that draw instead.
At the end of each turn, each player sacrifices a permanent unless he or she discards a card from his or her hand.
This is hilarious. And would be terrible for all formats, Vintage included. Can you imagine a standard format where you might get locked into your original seven in each game? Didn't we address this point in the podcast?
Power is not proportional to formats, but relative to them. A card could be broken in Vintage/Type I and unplayable or terrible in Standard/Type II.
There are lots of great blue Leylines that would be amazing in Vintage but not see play or be over powered in other formats. In fact, that's already true of them.
So I outright reject the idea that just because blue is powerful, that R&D won't make a good Leyline. In fact, I think blue is probably the color where you can most easily have a powerful eternal leyline that is of much more modest power level in other formats.
For example: how cool would it be to have a blue leyline like this?
Leyline of Scrying 2UU
Whenever you play a spell, you may Scrye 2.
I venture to suggest that Leyline of Scrying would be baaahroken even in standard. You can play a full playset, and once you land one you scry through the others; massive deck thinning. At Scry 1, it might have a prayer. If you really want Vintage niche effects, then I think you go in a direction other than generically powerful cards. As you mentioned in the podcast, the easiest ways to do this are to print hate cards that hit Vintage archetypes (Grafdigger's Cage) or cards that are magnified by Vintage's capacity to cheat things out (Grislebrand, Lodestone). Now, I feel like we've got plenty of hate cards for all deck types already, and it's hard to see how creatures and enchantments get any more silly busted than they are (Grisle, Emmy, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, lol?) so a Vintage-only effect might be hard to come up with. And, if you did, you end up with collateral damage in Legacy where Show and Tell at least is a thing. Thats why I'm saying we need a UNIQUE effect. Something that modifies the rules of the game in a way that hasn't been done before. Like Crucible of Worlds, the only example we have. And for this kind of effect, I think colors other than blue are more promising. I dunno, think about these effects: "Discard a card: Add 1 to your mana pool. Any player may use this ability." "Whenever a player shuffles his or her library, each other player draws a card." "Whenever a card is put into a library, shuffle that library." "Each player may cast cards in opponent's graveyards as though they were in that player's hand." "Search your library for a card named 'Chimney Imp' and reveal it. If you do, you win the game." EDIT: Or, I seem to recall an effect from the custom card creation forum that had promise... something like "Non-basic lands enter the battlefield tapped unless their controller pays 2 life," and was attached to a hatebear. Staple that effect onto another useful effect as an enchantment, and that would be viable. Like, hey, what about this: We Shure Do Hate Them Shops Enchantment, G Artifacts cost an additional 1 to cast. Non-basic lands enter the battlefield tapped. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 06:46:05 pm by MaximumCDawg »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
