[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 24: Dragon's Maze Set Review

[Smmenen]

We are now being hosted on both Eternal Central and MTGCast.  I will post the MTGcast when it is available.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3847

Timestamped Table of Contents:
0:01:30: Regrowth Unrestriction
0:09:15: Listener Feedback – Restricted List
0:37:57: Gatecrash Report Card
0:55:17: Dragon’s Maze Mechanics and Themes
1:01:39: Beck//Call
1:08:22: Blood Scrivener
1:19:46: Possibility Storm
1:28:33: Catch//Release
1:36:21: Far//Away
1:44:36: Notion Thief
1:52:04: Ral Zarek
1:59:30: Wear//Tear
2:02:26: Sin Collector
2:10:06: Voice of Resurgence
2:16:36: Skylasher
2:21:35: Uncovered Clues
2:26:10: Dragon’s Maze and it’s place among recent sets, for Vintage

Show Notes and Appendix

Dragon’s Maze Visual Spoiler

[Stormanimagus]

How does Possibility Storm get mention but a card like Council of the Absolute isn't even in the list at all? Also, what about Turn/Burn? That seems like a decent card to include in Landstill as an answer to little men and BSC.

-Storm

[Smmenen]

How does Possibility Storm get mention

There are three answers to this part of your question, both of which are answered in the podcast itself.  First, Kevin wanted to talk about this card.  Second, it is interesting to analyze from a design perspective, regardless of its playability.  Third, it is at least a possible (albeit inconsistent) way to cheat expensive spells into play like Emrakul.

[Stormanimagus]

How does Possibility Storm get mention

There are three answers to this part of your question, both of which are answered in the podcast itself.  First, Kevin wanted to talk about this card.  Second, it is interesting to analyze from a design perspective, regardless of its playability.  Third, it is at least a possible (albeit inconsistent) way to cheat expensive spells into play like Emrakul.

I listened to the whole podcast btw, and my question still stands. When we start considering prohibitive Casting Costs like that of Possibility Storm then why isn't a card like Council of the Absolute even considered? In Bomberman I could imagine Council being very good at hosing an opponent's ability to cast Jace while giving you access to  future Jaces. Did you not consider this interaction when considering the card as playable? If we are considering relatively crazy Fuse cards then why isn't Turn/Burn in the mix? It can kill a Blightsteel (provided you have a mishra's factory to block with in Landstill) and ping a Bob and it is on color for Landstill's current shell or U/R.

I think you guys are definitely improving at picking cards and I'll acknowledge that you did mention playability with D. Shaman in your last set prediction (although you certainly didn't predict just HOW good it would be or really WHY in my opinion), but you still seem to fundamentally miss the mark at times. I'm trying to help you miss that mark less, by pointing out odd includes like Possibility Storm and odd omissions like Council of the Absolute.

By the way, I DO think Notion Thief is the best card to come out of this set and I don't think it's really even that close.

-Storm

[Smmenen]

I'll acknowledge that you did mention playability with D. Shaman in your last set prediction (although you certainly didn't predict just HOW good it would be or really WHY in my opinion),

My written set review, Return to Ravnica, did that in more detail, btw.   I explained exactly why Shaman would see play. 

by pointing out odd includes like Possibility Storm

except that neither of us thinks Possibiilty storm will see play.  We didn't discuss it for that reason, as I already said. 

[JACO]

I listened to the whole podcast btw, and my question still stands. When we start considering prohibitive Casting Costs like that of Possibility Storm then why isn't a card like Council of the Absolute even considered? In Bomberman I could imagine Council being very good at hosing an opponent's ability to cast Jace while giving you access to  future Jaces. Did you not consider this interaction when considering the card as playable?

Possibility Storm has the possibility (pun intended) of doing something broken (important in Vintage), repeatedly, so it probably merits at least a bit of discussion as to a possible shell, even if there's other options that are currently more appealing. Since you seem to be the only one waving the flag for Council of the Absolute, perhaps you can answer these questions as to why you think it's playable in Vintage?
1a) Does anyone currently play Meddling Mage (at 2 mana) in Vintage Bomberman to shut off an opposing Jace or any card in Bomberman?
1b) Subquestion - if so, how often does this happen in tournament winning lists, and what is the opportunity cost of playing Meddling Mage instead of something that just advances your game plan?
2) Has any tournament performing deck played Grand Arbiter Augustin IV at the exact same casting cost in Vintage in 4 years? (Hint: the answer is no).
3a) When playing Bomberman at what point would you rather cast a 2/4 utility creature for 4 mana instead of just casting Auriok Salvagers (which most lists only play 2 of anyway)?
3b) Subquestion - wouldn't you rather just always win the game with Salvagers than dicking around casting Council of the Absolute, or any other 4 mana creature in Bomberman?

[Stormanimagus]

I'll acknowledge that you did mention playability with D. Shaman in your last set prediction (although you certainly didn't predict just HOW good it would be or really WHY in my opinion),

My written set review, Return to Ravnica, did that in more detail, btw.   I explained exactly why Shaman would see play. 

by pointing out odd includes like Possibility Storm

except that neither of us thinks Possibiilty storm will see play.  We didn't discuss it for that reason, as I already said. 

Then why bring it up in the first place?

[Stormanimagus]

I listened to the whole podcast btw, and my question still stands. When we start considering prohibitive Casting Costs like that of Possibility Storm then why isn't a card like Council of the Absolute even considered? In Bomberman I could imagine Council being very good at hosing an opponent's ability to cast Jace while giving you access to   future Jaces. Did you not consider this interaction when considering the card as playable?

Possibility Storm has the possibility (pun intended) of doing something broken (important in Vintage), repeatedly, so it probably merits at least a bit of discussion as to a possible shell, even if there's other options that are currently more appealing. Since you seem to be the only one waving the flag for Council of the Absolute, perhaps you can answer these questions as to why you think it's playable in Vintage?
1a) Does anyone currently play Meddling Mage (at 2 mana) in Vintage Bomberman to shut off an opposing Jace or any card in Bomberman?
1b) Subquestion - if so, how often does this happen in tournament winning lists, and what is the opportunity cost of playing Meddling Mage instead of something that just advances your game plan?
2) Has any tournament performing deck played Grand Arbiter Augustin IV at the exact same casting cost in Vintage in 4 years? (Hint: the answer is no).
3a) When playing Bomberman at what point would you rather cast a 2/4 utility creature for 4 mana instead of just casting Auriok Salvagers (which most lists only play 2 of anyway)?
3b) Subquestion - wouldn't you rather just always win the game with Salvagers than dicking around casting Council of the Absolute, or any other 4 mana creature in Bomberman?

1. Is Salvagers pitchable to Force of Will?
2. Do you need 2 other cards to get value out of it (Lotus + Something to do with all the mana?)
3. Can it be needled, Revokered?
4. Does Salvagers fit in a wide variety of U/W decks?
5. Does the second Salvagers you draw have nearly as much value as the first (i.e - is it good in multiples?)?

I have, of course, considered all these questions and, consequently think that the comparison is in no way direct. Council of the Absolute may not be playable in Vintage, but I can assure you it merits a hell of a lot more discussion than Possibility Storm.

Additional Note: Meddling Mage is not a good comparison cause often you'd be attempting to abuse this with naming Jace or a key card like Tinker. Heck you could even name Time Vault in certain situations. This card also can not be bolted or EEed like Meddling Mage can.
-Storm

[DubDub]

I don't think Notion Thief and Standstill work as Stephen described on the podcast.  I was under the impression that because the draw in Standstill's trigger is part-and-parcel of the sacrifice trigger it can't be stolen as a separate draw effect.  Does anyone know more definitively?

[Smmenen]

huh?

No, I'm saying that you play Notion Thief in RESPONSE to Standstill, so that it is in play when Standstill resolves.  I wasn't saying you could steal the draws of a Standstill already in play. 

[DubDub]

huh?

No, I'm saying that you play Notion Thief in RESPONSE to Standstill, so that it is in play when Standstill resolves.  I wasn't saying you could steal the draws of a Standstill already in play. 

I understand that.  I'm saying if Notion Thief is in play when Standstill is broken by some subsequent spell, it doesn't change which player draws the cards.  (i.e. If Notion Thief's controller breaks the Standstill Notion Thief's controller's opponent draws three cards.)

I could be wrong, but I thought that Standstill's trigger's templating made it "not work" with Notion Thief.

[Smmenen]

I'll acknowledge that you did mention playability with D. Shaman in your last set prediction (although you certainly didn't predict just HOW good it would be or really WHY in my opinion),

My written set review, Return to Ravnica, did that in more detail, btw.   I explained exactly why Shaman would see play.  

by pointing out odd includes like Possibility Storm

except that neither of us thinks Possibiilty storm will see play.  We didn't discuss it for that reason, as I already said.  

Then why bring it up in the first place?

Many reasons.   In both written set reviews and podcasts, we look at cards that are not playable but worth reviewing for many reasons:

1) It is a design innovation that may be relevant to eternal design space.  There are often innovative, novel design space being created by new effects that could be relevant to eternal even when a specific card does not.

2) It is an interesting design that is worth thinking about for heuristic or other reasons.  Even if new design space is not being carved out, there may be some aspect of a card -- such as its interaction with the rules, that is worth bringing to eternal players attention.  Knowledge Pool is an example.  

3) It is a card that other people are talking about.  None of us thought Epic Experiment was playable, but people talked about it alot.  We felt the need to explain why we didn't think it would see play.

There are many other reasons besides.

Just because a card is not playable does not mean it is not worth talking about.  

Also, you say we "fundamentally miss the mark."  In our two report cards so far, our variance from actual performance statistics has been under 2 appearances per card.  

Also, I have been writing set reviews since Time Spiral (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13006-A-Time-Spiral-Review-for-Vintage.html ).  

In that time, the number of cards I either 1) completely overlooked or 2) dramatically over estimated is in the single digits (Slash Panther is an example of the former, and Street Wraith an example of the latter).  I'd put my *actual record* of predicting Vintage cards against anyone in terms of statistical accuracy.  For example, I mentioned cards like Lab Maniac in my Innistrad set reviews, which no other Vintage set review even mentioned (neither Mark H or Brian Ds).  For someone who fundamentally misses the mark, I'm probably one of the most accurate card predictors there is in terms of forecasting Top 8 appearances.  You can go back through my old set reviews if you want proof.  Or compare them to older set reviewers like Oscar Tan, Probasco, JP Meyer, Carl Winter and other older Vintage writers.  

[Smmenen]

huh?

No, I'm saying that you play Notion Thief in RESPONSE to Standstill, so that it is in play when Standstill resolves.  I wasn't saying you could steal the draws of a Standstill already in play. 

I understand that.  I'm saying if Notion Thief is in play when Standstill is broken by some subsequent spell, it doesn't change which player draws the cards.  (i.e. If Notion Thief's controller breaks the Standstill Notion Thief's controller's opponent draws three cards.)

I could be wrong, but I thought that Standstill's trigger's templating made it "not work" with Notion Thief.

Wouldn't Notion Thief's replacement ability trigger if the opponent was about to draw 3 cards?

[CHA1N5]

@Storm:  not to pile on, but the simplest answer to your question is that we include cards that are interesting (our measure) to discuss, even if we are sure they won't see play.  I believe you'll find this in the last several of our set reviews.  We don't discuss absolutely everything that meets this criteria, however, for time reasons.  Our show is a mixture of theory, practice, policy, community, etc.

The cards you mentioned would likely have yielded good discussion, but we were already above two hours.

[DubDub]

I can't find any mention of what caused me to initially think that Notion Thief failed to "work" with Standstill, so I guess I am incorrect.  I don't know what set me down that path.

Which, if Notion Thief "works" with Standstill, then playing it in a deck WITH Standstills becomes a good option, breaking your own Standstill and drawing 3 cards from it turns Standstill into:  , Sorcery, Draw Three Cards, which is clearly playable.

[Smmenen]

I don't know why that didn't occur to us to talk about, but that's an excellent point. 

That's the natural extension of the logic of my analysis regarding that interactino. 

[JACO]

I listened to the whole podcast btw, and my question still stands. When we start considering prohibitive Casting Costs like that of Possibility Storm then why isn't a card like Council of the Absolute even considered? In Bomberman I could imagine Council being very good at hosing an opponent's ability to cast Jace while giving you access to  future Jaces. Did you not consider this interaction when considering the card as playable?

Possibility Storm has the possibility (pun intended) of doing something broken (important in Vintage), repeatedly, so it probably merits at least a bit of discussion as to a possible shell, even if there's other options that are currently more appealing. Since you seem to be the only one waving the flag for Council of the Absolute, perhaps you can answer these questions as to why you think it's playable in Vintage?
1a) Does anyone currently play Meddling Mage (at 2 mana) in Vintage Bomberman to shut off an opposing Jace or any card in Bomberman?
1b) Subquestion - if so, how often does this happen in tournament winning lists, and what is the opportunity cost of playing Meddling Mage instead of something that just advances your game plan?
2) Has any tournament performing deck played Grand Arbiter Augustin IV at the exact same casting cost in Vintage in 4 years? (Hint: the answer is no).
3a) When playing Bomberman at what point would you rather cast a 2/4 utility creature for 4 mana instead of just casting Auriok Salvagers (which most lists only play 2 of anyway)?
3b) Subquestion - wouldn't you rather just always win the game with Salvagers than dicking around casting Council of the Absolute, or any other 4 mana creature in Bomberman?

1. Is Salvagers pitchable to Force of Will?
2. Do you need 2 other cards to get value out of it (Lotus + Something to do with all the mana?)
3. Can it be needled, Revokered?
4. Does Salvagers fit in a wide variety of U/W decks?
5. Does the second Salvagers you draw have nearly as much value as the first (i.e - is it good in multiples?)?

I have, of course, considered all these questions and, consequently think that the comparison is in no way direct. Council of the Absolute may not be playable in Vintage, but I can assure you it merits a hell of a lot more discussion than Possibility Storm.

Additional Note: Meddling Mage is not a good comparison cause often you'd be attempting to abuse this with naming Jace or a key card like Tinker. Heck you could even name Time Vault in certain situations. This card also can not be bolted or EEed like Meddling Mage can.
-Storm

You have not answered my questions above, but I will address your questions.
1) 'Pitching' to Force of Will, or Bounty of the Hunt, or Misdirection, or Contagion has never been a good enough reason to change what you play in a specific slot.
2) Salvagers can recur any artifact from the graveyard, which it often does. It's not limited to Lotus, which is one of the reasons it's such a good card.
3) I don't think anyone would actually care to needle a mediocre creature that you paid 4 mana to cast. Salvagers could be Needled, yes, and if they don't have Needle/Revoker it often just wins the game on the spot.
4) Salvagers, nor Council of the Absolute fit in a 'wide range of U/W decks.'
5) Salvagers is better than Council of the Absolute in multiples, because if they've dealt with your first Salvagers the second is often just going to win the game on the spot. Council of the Absolute is just going to sit there and be a peasant 2/4 with minimal other impact on the board. Salvagers wins outright if undisrupted, unlike Council.

Feel free to answer my questions now in earnest, because with those 3 points alone I don't think the card is Vintage playable.

huh?

No, I'm saying that you play Notion Thief in RESPONSE to Standstill, so that it is in play when Standstill resolves.  I wasn't saying you could steal the draws of a Standstill already in play. 

I understand that.  I'm saying if Notion Thief is in play when Standstill is broken by some subsequent spell, it doesn't change which player draws the cards.  (i.e. If Notion Thief's controller breaks the Standstill Notion Thief's controller's opponent draws three cards.)

I could be wrong, but I thought that Standstill's trigger's templating made it "not work" with Notion Thief.

Notion Thief's oracle text is as follows:
Flash
If an opponent would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in each of his or her draw steps, instead that player skips that draw and you draw a card.

Standstill's oracle text is as follows:
When a player plays a spell, sacrifice Standstill. If you do, then each of that player`s opponents draws three cards.

Notion Thief's ability is a replacement ability, so if I have Thief in play and cast a spell to trigger my opponent's Standstill, Standstill would tell them to draw 3 cards, but Thief's replacement ability would instead make me draw the 3 cards.

[DubDub]

...

Thanks for chiming in.  See my last post.

Edit: Also, to answer the question, Far//Away will be the most prevalent DGM card.  Notion Thief is the best card in the set (especially now that I've realized the interaction with Standstill, but even more generally Plagiarize on a stick is incredible with Jaces, Gushes and Draw Sevens etc.). 

[Stormanimagus]

@Stephen - You don't exactly have a lot of competition these days in the area of major set reviews so the fact that you put the time into them at all puts you above most magic theorists. I thank you for your services to the game, but I do believe that you and Kevin have pretty substantial biases towards cards with certain types of effects and against cards with certain types of effects. One could argue that Council of the Absolute should have been discussed exactly BECAUSE it does something rarely/if ever seen in magic. It SIMULTANEOUSLY hoses a card while boosting it as a means to victory for your deck. The fact that it makes your copies of the card cost  less could perhaps also be relevant for infi-mana loops or some such absurdity. I just don't understand why you guys choose to discuss a card as confusing and pretty clearly awful as Possibility Storm while overlooking a card that could actually see play. Isn't this review supposed to be for cards that might actually see play?

And don't give me the BS about only 2 hours. Let me show you how to keep your podcast under 2 hours:

Subtract your discussions of:

Possibility Storm
Uncovered Clues
Skylasher (I really think it's pretty clear that this will only see play in Legacy)
Catch / Release (Why discuss this card? Sure the effect is unique, but shouldn't we wait until it is aggressively costed enough before theorizing publicly? I restrain myself from theorizing until a card has been printed at an aggressive enough cost for its effect)

Add to your discussion:

Council of the Absolute
Turn/Burn


I like that you are generally conservative in your picks, but I constantly get confused by the seemingly anomalous cards you choose to mention.

[Smmenen]

@Stephen - You don't exactly have a lot of competition these days in the area of major set reviews

I'm talking going back to 2006.  So you can compare my Vintage set reviews to anyone during that 7 year time period if you'd like, including Sperling, Hornung, Probasco, etc.

 so the fact that you put the time into them at all puts you above most magic theorists. I thank you for your services to the game, but I do believe that you and Kevin have pretty substantial biases towards cards with certain types of effects and against cards with certain types of effects. One could argue that Council of the Absolute should have been discussed exactly BECAUSE it does something rarely/if ever seen in magic. It SIMULTANEOUSLY hoses a card while boosting it as a means to victory for your deck. The fact that it makes your copies of the card cost   less could perhaps also be relevant for infi-mana loops or some such absurdity. I just don't understand why you guys choose to discuss a card as confusing and pretty clearly awful as Possibility Storm while overlooking a card that could actually see play. Isn't this review supposed to be for cards that might actually see play?

And don't give me the BS about only 2 hours. Let me show you how to keep your podcast under 2 hours:

Subtract your discussions of:

Possibility Storm
Uncovered Clues
Skylasher (I really think it's pretty clear that this will only see play in Legacy)
Catch / Release (Why discuss this card? Sure the effect is unique, but shouldn't we wait until it is aggressively costed enough before theorizing publicly? I restrain myself from theorizing until a card has been printed at an aggressive enough cost for its effect)

Add to your discussion:

Council of the Absolute
Turn/Burn


I like that you are generally conservative in your picks, but I constantly get confused by the seemingly anomalous cards you choose to mention.

I don't know what you mean by conservative in our picks.  Do you mean conservative in our predictions or conservative in selecting cards to review?  If the former, I would agree.  If the latter, I would disagree.   We typically review 12-20 cards per set -- which is quite a lot.  I agree we could have reviewed Council, but I don't think that speaks to any tendency or bias.  

[MaximumCDawg]

Nice, you guys are churning out podcasts very regularly recently.  I like it! 

I haven't listened yet, but I find this discussion of why card X wasn't in the discussion about as pointless as the discussions in other threads (you know what I'm talking about) about who was "first" to say that Deathrite Shaman has eternal applications, or how aggressive they were in mounting that bandwagon.  Who freak'n cares?  I mean, someone who is really out for data about how accurate a set reviewer can just go online and look for it.  Anyone who is truly skeptical isn't going to take the reviewer's word for how accurate they are anyway, and if they're not willing to double-check the reviewers past reviews, who cares what they think?

Sheesh, you'd think regularly winning competitive Vintage events with decks that individual creates would give someone some kind of authority to speak without needing to prove themselves or justify every choice they make in their podcast.

[Archae]

On the subject of Dimir Charm, I think the card has applications to enough match-ups to justify it as a card that is viable in certain metagames. Despite it appearances in Doomsday, I see the card as an anti-Doomsday measure, as all of its modes are relevant against Doomsday. Also hitting Bobs, Tinker, and fish creatures (notably Trygon Predator) makes it very solid in my eyes.

[psyburat]

Thanks for the love, gentlemen.  I promise that Dimir Charm isn't a flash in the pan, the versatility of that card is insane.  I think the only mode I haven't used with the card so far is the unwritten "pitch to Force of Will" option.  It's ability to serve multiple roles against decks fueled by Dark Confidant, Trinket Mage, Burning Wish and Cabal Therapy help to leave room in the sideboard for heavier commitment against the Workshop matchup.  It's not the perfect answer, as highlighted by its two-of number as a sideboard card, but it does a lot that I need it to.

[brianpk80]

That was one of best podcasts you guys have done.  Thoroughly enjoyable.  The canvassing of the set for cards to discuss and the assessments of both their power and potential popularity improved by leaps and bounds since Gatecrash, RtR, and Avacyn Restored.

I liked the Possibility Storm discursion; it was legitimate and interesting.  Kudos to Stephen for picking up on why Sin Collector is better than Tidehollow Sculler post-Caverns.  

I read Kevin's points on Leyline of Sanctity as indicating that anytime you have a format where it's seeing a lot of play, you have a problem with that format because it's besieged by fast kills that can't adequately be kept in check by countermagic or a Turn 1 play/response.  Requiring a hazard mask as drastic and narrow as LoS is a sign of unhealthiness.  

Card that will see the most play now: Notion Thief
Card that will see the most play in the long run: Far/Away
Best card in the set: Ral Zarek

The power level of the block is on the low side overall (especially with the unplayables which are grossly unplayable... a very in-your-face kind of unplayable like that conditional Mana Leak for ), but this set is much better than Gatecrash.  I see a lot of instances in the set where they could have gotten away with pricing something at a lower CMC or pushing a few cards more.  Still, the block has 15-20 or so Vintage playables.  

I don't agree with unrestricting Library of Alexandria for several reasons.  The reasoning you both advance is a combination of "the metagame can adapt" and "its strengths have countervailing weaknesses."  Both may or may not be true, but even taken together they still don't outweigh the negatives:

-It's a drastic step to quadruple the limit on one of the rarest cards ever printed in raw numbers that can't be easily undone if it proves catastrophic for the format, unlike Gush, a 25 cent common from Mercadian Masques.  
-Due to scarcity, unrestricting Library conflicts with the goal of sustaining the format by recruiting new players, which makes it especially awful in tandem with the movement to abolish proxies.  
-It's a sudden discriminatory ~$700-$2,000 tax on blue mages which shouldn't be brushed aside as insignificant.
-Library of Alexandria even as a singleton lends itself to lopsided "un-fun" games.  Multiple LoA's doesn't seem any better.  The last time an "un-fun" card was set loose on the format (Time Vault), half of the player base quit.  Being that Magic is a fantasy trading card game, the fun factor is paramount.  This should be a no-brainer.  
-Since it's such a drastic step, it should be taken only if there's overwhelming broad support for doing so and a general consensus that it would improve the experience of playing the game.  By contrast, the strongest reactions are coming from the many opposed and while those in favor are lukewarm or disinterested.  It's an unpopular, costly, and despised idea with no strong support and no clear benefit or beneficiary.  This is a net negative.  

In defense of Dimir Charm, each of its modes are relevant in a wide variety of situations.  I played a game against the Doomsday deck that he would have won if he had drawn the Charm to kill Thalia.  A lot of cards that kill small creatures are just dead in other matches or situations though.  Versatility matters.  More options = more latitude to pick the best option.  The reasons for running it were not senseless.  

[Guli]

I agree with Brian, this was a very enjoyable podcast.

When you guys were saying you were surprised seeing Mayor top 8, you started laughing and giggling. That made me laugh too, lol. But seriously though, Sin Sollector is a good card with Thalia and Cavern of Souls. You need to put in into context indeed, i fully agree. And you guys forgot 1 thing, Engineered Explosives get's less value because Collector is 3 cmc.

I am now going back to the podcast, not done yet

[msg67183]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but Abrupt Decay destroys Chalice of the Void, which seems like a fine reason to play it against Shops.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Comparing meddling Mage to council is a terrible example. Back if you are representing eternal entrap you should probably learn to read first. I think council is far and away the best card in the set (pun intended) and I don't think notion thief is even remotely playable.

As far as your talk a out library, you guys don't make any sense. The big trump to library is dark confidant? So you are saying a creature that draws an extra card per turn is the trump to a a land that draws an extra card per turn. Even if i felt like that comment made sense,What about gutshot? That is a free "counter" that land still could play to combat bobs and the all powerful notion thief. Library is way too good to unrestrict, and wood rather see most of the restricted list unrestricted before that.

[Smmenen]

I don't recall anyone saying Bob is a trump to library.  The main point is that Library is a safe unrestrict because it's not that dangerous in a format this fast.   The average number of turns per player is about 4.5 per game, and games often end faster than that.   

[Cruel Ultimatum]

It was something along the lines that the free counters don't answer bob outside of force, so library decks are weak against it.

But I would really like to know we're the average number of turns per game comes from.

[JACO]

I don't recall anyone saying Bob is a trump to library.  The main point is that Library is a safe unrestrict because it's not that dangerous in a format this fast.   The average number of turns per player is about 4.5 per game, and games often end faster than that.   

You specifically mentioned Dark Confidant and Delver of Secrets as tactics against Library decks, which I immediately thought was a poor example, and spurred me to write this down at the time of listening as the start of an article:
"Landstill easily answers Dark Confidant and Delver of Secrets with Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Engineered Explosives, all of which are commongly played. Landstill can EASILY be tuned to beat creature decks.

Landstill answers Hymn with Spell Snare, Flusterstorm, Force, Misdirection, all of which are commonly played."

The second part was because someone (Kevin, I believe) also mentioned that other tactics like Hymn to Tourach would probably pop up in the face of Library decks, which I also found amusing.

I am on the more Libertarian side of Banned & Restricted thought, but do not agree with the unrestriction of either Library of Alexandria or Balance. I did agree with the unrestriction of Regrowth and felt that it could have come off a while ago (and think there are still more cards I would pull off, one at a time). I am leaning towards writing a longer piece about Banned & Restricted policy theory in general, and will probably use Library and Balance among other examples.