Blightsteel = truly best Tinker target?

[MTGFan]

There seems to be the consensus that Blightsteel Colossus is the best available Tinker target for any deck playing Tinker. I understand the merits of this target - he kills in one attack phase, and is immune to artifact destruction spells commonly played.

However, when Exile removal like Swords to Plowshares has a non-trivial presence in the format, and when Jace is a heavily played control card, why is Blightsteel Colossus strictly better than Inkwell Leviathan?

Inkwell Leviathan is immune to artifact destruction as well, but its shroud also gives it immunity to Jace and Swords to Plowshares. Inkwell will not kill as fast as Blightsteel, but will often kill the opponent eventually anyway. Inkwell also pitches to Force of Will whereas Blightsteel does not.

Can there be a case made to play Inkwell over Blightsteel as a Tinker target in the maindeck?

[MaximumCDawg]

Sure, but I feel that enough experimenting has been done to establish that the marginal benefit of being immune to targeted removal is not worth a Tinker target that gives the enemy up to three draw steps to deal with it.  Also, don't forget, Hurkyl's Recall is commonly played and answers both.  Three turns is a long time to dig up a Hurkyl's.

I could see busting out the big metal fish once if you knew the metagame was stale and people were relying on STP and Steel Sabotage.

Personally, I'm fan of the old Darksteel / Sphinx / Leviathan choices we used to have, but now it seems dumb not to use the big infector.

[vaughnbros]

I think a case can certainly be made for other bots over blightsteel.

He's rarely ever a true 1 turn clock as a 2 toughness blocker buys a turn.  This is a pretty big weakness due to the fact that he doesnt deal regular damage so once hes removed the damage he dealt basically never happened.

He's not particularly hard to deal with for most decks either.  Blue players have Jace and singleton bounce spells like aether spellbomb and hurkyls.  Workshops has forgemaster into duplicant and metamorph.  Fish has a variety of answers depending on build.  

He also costs 12 mana making him the hardest bot to cast from your hand.  His shuffle back clause hurting his playability with welder.  This makes tinker really the only real way of getting him into play.

I think depending on the decks other card choices Sphinx of the steel wind, and Myr battlesphere are legitimate replacements.  I'm not the biggest fan of inkwell since its very weak against workshops.

[John Cox]

Your opponent could just win too. I think Stephen Menendian said in a recent podcast that the average game was measured at 4.5 turns. For Inkwell to be effective under that it would have to be played on turn 1.5, Blightsteel can be played on turn 4.

[Samoht]

Your opponent could just win too. I think Stephen Menendian said in a recent podcast that the average game was measured at 4.5 turns. For Inkwell to be effective under that it would have to be played on turn 1.5, Blightsteel can be played on turn 4.

He said it, that doesn't make it close to true.

[xouman]

BSC is the best tinker target in most cases, imho. It's fast and not affected by artifact destruction. If you play a good bunch of counters to defend it seems the best target, or if you just want to kill asap.

However if you play few permission or expect lots of answers, inkwell or even battlesphere could be better. inkwell autoprotects from most things, and battlesphere is the easier to cast, while putting a fast clock if unanswered and netting 4 tokens in case it gets sworded or destroyed. Welder decks want any of those, or even Sundering Titan.

[Meddling Mike]

I think in a vacuum there's no debate that BSC is the best Tinker target. If people in your metagame is saturated with stuff like Jace, STP, etc.; I think there's an argument to be made for alternatives that dodge this removal or can have a dramatic effect on the board state. BSC should always be your default Tinker Bot unless you see a lot of compelling evidence to go in another direction. The shortened window it gives your opponent is a crucial advantage.

[Samoht]

I think in a vacuum there's no debate that BSC is the best Tinker target. If people in your metagame is saturated with stuff like Jace, STP, etc.; I think there's an argument to be made for alternatives that dodge this removal or can have a dramatic effect on the board state. BSC should always be your default Tinker Bot unless you see a lot of compelling evidence to go in another direction. The shortened window it gives your opponent is a crucial advantage.

Pretty much spot on. He is certainly the most potent, but if his potency has altered the landscape to hate for him you have to go another route, likely Inkwell.

[Smmenen]

Your opponent could just win too. I think Stephen Menendian said in a recent podcast that the average game was measured at 4.5 turns. For Inkwell to be effective under that it would have to be played on turn 1.5, Blightsteel can be played on turn 4.

He said it, that doesn't make it close to true.

Actually, we went through all of the Bazaar of Moxen videos -- including swiss rounds-- and that stat was pretty close.  Many games were shorter.  Hence the average.  Bear in mind that this stat is a product of the first player winning in turn 5, since the drawing player only had 4 turns - hence the 4.5 average

[Onslaught]

In a lot of blue decks I would probably use Myr Battlesphere before Inkwell Leviathan, pretty easy to cast it after a Mana Drain. That being said, I'd still run BSC over either of them 99% of the time.

[Smmenen]

One of the things that is notable is that despite claims that BSC is often not the best tinker target, the appearances of non-BSC Robots is few and far between.

[MTGFan]

One of the things that is notable is that despite claims that BSC is often not the best tinker target, the appearances of non-BSC Robots is few and far between.

That's why I made this thread. I'm not opposed to BSC as the "consensus" Tinkerbot, but the prevalence of Jace and other targeted removal makes me wonder if a market correction is not in order.

[Smmenen]

If a correction was in order, it would have happened two years ago.  This is a 2011 thread subject.  By the fall of 2011, Jace were everywhere in Vintage Top 8s.  that hasn't changed since. 

[MTGFan]

The number of StPs and PtEs seems to have increased with the newfound popularity of the Human Cavern lists, however.

[Smmenen]

I don't think that the new Human Caverns decks have increased STP incidence in top 8s that much, if at all.  there were always UWx Fish lists before.  But even if that's true, I don't think that the presence of cards like that actually creates an environment significantly more hostile to BSC than before. 

The presence of Jaces, Hurkyls, and Phyrexian Metamorphs, among other cards, already makes the format so hostile to BSC that its hard to imagine how Humans lists really take that to a new level. 

[Guli]

Not to mention Humans has much better answers than a counterable 1 cc spell that gives the opponent time to find Time Vault. The problem is these answers are narrowish. So we can't run them easily.

So thank god, these metamorphs, jaces and other stuff that thrump BSC exist. This way we need to deal less with it I guess.

[TheProfessor]

I have been running Myr Battlesphere instead of BSC in my Grixis deck for the last two months.  The meta usually consists of Fish, Shops, and an assortment of blue decks including Esper Bomberman.  I felt like Blightsteel Colossus was a liability in the deck, and Myr Battlesphere fixed a lot of the problems I was having.  Battlesphere was great against both Smokestack and Tangle Wire, and the game was interesting and interactive when copied by Phyrexian Metamorph.  The four extra 1/1's were sweet against Fish, providing support against a hoard of creatures.  It was even great in the face of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and hurts way less when flipped to Dark Confidant.  I feel like Myr Battlesphere is a better choice at the moment, but to each their own!

[MTGFan]

Yes, Battlesphere indeed does sound like a better target for Tinker at this point.

I personally prefer Inkwell because of complete immunity to any targeted removal, and the additional benefit of Islandwalk. I can't tell you how many times I've won games with Inkwell where a Colossus would have been bounced by Jace / removed by PtE or StP / shut down by some Maze of Ith effect.

[Protoaddict]

Heres the thing. As a tinker target most people would never use more than one robot in a list at a time since they are a dead draw. Some of the other bots are situationally better but not more so than blightsteel is universally strong.

So I would wager a guess that the reason you don't see other bots is simply people going with a safe bet as opposed to something that would basically be a meta call.

If other decks could justify using other targets because they were hard castable or had other utility then I think you would see toolbox options, but the format is simply to tight right now for me to imagine that happening.

[MTGFan]

What it basically comes down to is this, at least for me, in my metagame:

Faster Clock (Blightsteel) vs. Invulnerability to Jace & StP/PtE & Fire//Ice & Chain/Truth & Tap Dudes (Inkwell)

Inkwell takes longer to kill someone, obviously, but Trample and Islandwalk help it get through even if there are blockers. Blightsteel usually kills in 1-2 turns depending on number of chump blockers.

If you plan on seeing a non-trivial number of control decks that play 3+ Jace, and/or a nontrivial number of Caverns Humans / Fish lists that play 4+ StP/PtE maindeck, then Inkwell is the better choice, because blanking Jace and StP/PtE is far more valuable than killing in 1-2 turns vs. killing in 3-4 turns, especially vs. control decks.

[Phele]

What it basically comes down to is this, at least for me, in my metagame:

If you plan on seeing a non-trivial number of control decks that play 3+ Jace, and/or a nontrivial number of Caverns Humans / Fish lists that play 4+ StP/PtE maindeck, then Inkwell is the better choice, because blanking Jace and StP/PtE is far more valuable than killing in 1-2 turns vs. killing in 3-4 turns, especially vs. control decks.

So Inkwell is imo a nice choice for the sideboard, turning Tinker into a great bomb against Fish and control postboard.

[MTGFan]

Or if you see alot of Control and Fish in your metagame, Inkwell is probably the better maindeck choice.

You simply have to weigh the number of situations in which a.) you win the game due to the faster clock of the Colossus compared to the number of situations in which b.) you win the game with Inkwell (or lose the game with Colossus) in a situation that featured the use of spot removal or bounce by the opponent.

In my testing with the recent Vintage metagame, the number of situations involving scenario B outweigh the number of situations involving scenario A by a non-trivial margin of maybe 65-35, simply because the occurrence of StP/PtE/bounce is relatively prevalent, and maybe around half the time is Colossus's increased clock relevant in that Inkwell literally ran out of attack steps to secure the victory.

[John Jones]

I really wish Nullstone Gargoyle was better. I <3 That guy. He was always just so close.

[Smmenen]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC. 

[Samoht]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC.  

And then remind him he was the only one on Tinker in the t8.

edit: top 12 as well, as 9 was Grisel Oath, 10th was BUG fish, 11th was Espresso, and 12th was Martello.

[Smmenen]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC.  

And then remind him he was the only one on Tinker in the t8.

Which I think actually reinforces my point.  Paul was the only winner as well.  

Paul's deck is a focused Time Vault/Tinker deck, which again continues to underscore the fact that this is the dominant strategy (in a non-statistical sense) in Type I. Bob/Jace Control with Time Vault/Tinker as the win conditions won not only this tournament, but it's won 2 of the last 3 Vintage Championships (and got 2nd and 3rd at the won it didn't win).  

Paul's opening hands in the finals are illustrative.  

Oh, and he also didn't run LoA, since it sucks

[Samoht]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC.  

And then remind him he was the only one on Tinker in the t8.

Which I think actually reinforces my point.  Paul was the only winner as well.  

Paul's deck is a focused Time Vault/Tinker deck, which again continues to underscore the fact that this is the dominant strategy (in a non-statistical sense) in Type I. Bob/Jace Control with Time Vault/Tinker as the win conditions won not only this tournament, but it's won 2 of the last 3 Vintage Championships (and got 2nd and 3rd at the won it didn't win).  

Paul's opening hands in the finals are illustrative.  

Oh, and he also didn't run LoA, since it sucks

Erm, I think it doesn't underscore it, but instead undercuts it. He wasn't the only player that played that strategy. Paul was much more important to winning the event than Tinker->BSC was.

Also, his deck doesn't need a secondary card advantage plan to Dark Confidant. It also will almost never have 7 cards in hand to use Library. Saying it sucks is a bit overzealous.

Tinker->TV isn't the discussion we're having a point of contention about. Tinker -> BSC being hated out is something altogether different than tutoring for infinite turns.

[Smmenen]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC.  

And then remind him he was the only one on Tinker in the t8.

Which I think actually reinforces my point.  Paul was the only winner as well.  

Paul's deck is a focused Time Vault/Tinker deck, which again continues to underscore the fact that this is the dominant strategy (in a non-statistical sense) in Type I. Bob/Jace Control with Time Vault/Tinker as the win conditions won not only this tournament, but it's won 2 of the last 3 Vintage Championships (and got 2nd and 3rd at the won it didn't win).  

Paul's opening hands in the finals are illustrative.  


Oh, and he also didn't run LoA, since it sucks

Erm, I think it doesn't underscore it, but instead undercuts it. He wasn't the only player that played that strategy. Paul was much more important to winning the event than Tinker->BSC was.

While I definitely think Paul was important to that event, part of what makes Paul important is that he understands what cards and decks to play.  Paul always succeeds most when he plays aggressive, tempo, combo-control archetypes because he knows, inherently, these are consistently the decks that win Top 8 playoffs in the largest Vintage tournaments in the US.  Paul plays extremely aggressively, and his Top 8 hands illustrate this, as does the finals match itself.  

The fact that it keeps winning the biggest North American tournaments says something about it.  It cuts through all of the other strategies in elimination rounds.  

By his own admission, Paul has had a dry spell prior to this tournament.  He struck the proper configuration at the right time.  It's unwise to dismiss any component of the deck simply on the basis of player skill.  That is the largest part of player skill.  

I think one key to Paul's success was the fact that he played white as the tertiary color instead of red.  His deck was extremely well metagamed for the environment, and the best possible implementation of the Bob-Jace/Tinker/Vault strategy, just as Marc Lanigra's was for Gencon last Fall, Hiromichi Itou's list was in 2008 and Owen Turtenwalld's was in 2009.  

I misspoke earlier: Bob-Jace Key/Vault decks actually won 3 of the last 4 Vintage Champs, and now this.  The only Vintage Champs they didn't win, Paul and I got 2nd and 3rd place with the approach.  

Also, his deck doesn't need a secondary card advantage plan to Dark Confidant. It also will almost never have 7 cards in hand to use Library. Saying it sucks is a bit overzealous.

I was only kidding.  Hence the "smile."  

Tinker->TV isn't the discussion we're having a point of contention about. Tinker -> BSC being hated out is something altogether different than tutoring for infinite turns.

Yes, but, they are related.  

Decks with Time Vault run Tinker (or should) and I'm saying that BSC is and remains the best Tinker target, despite the potential hate.  It's simply too powerful of a tempo play and despite the marginal advantages of other Tinker bobs, BSC remains the only truly valid choice.  

This tempo aspect of high level Vintage play I think goes under appreciated and misunderstood.  If folks watch Paul play the blue control decks, I think they would better learn how to optimally play some of these decks and thereby better understand why BSC is optimal.  

While this is not a debate (nor its associated elements) that can be resolved on message boards, I do believe readers can judge for themselves which is the more compelling perspective based on the totality of evidence. 

[vaughnbros]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC. 

Any other tinker target would've also beaten me that game.  So I don't think this really helps BSC over anything else.

[Samoht]

Just remind the OPer that Paul M's winning deck, once again, used BSC.  In fact, the final game of the tournament was T1 Tinker for BSC. 

Any other tinker target would've also beaten me that game.  So I don't think this really helps BSC over anything else.

Apparently you scoop to Darksteel Myr too?  LET ME FIND OUT NOW!?!?!?