Legendary Rule Change 23rd May 2013

[A.-1.]

This makes me sad solely because Thrun is no longer the last troll.

[KrauserKrauser]

Calling it now.  Within the next two blocks they are going to have Legendary Dual Lands.

[hashswag]

Thrun, the Penultimate Troll.

Calling it now.  Within the next two blocks they are going to have Legendary Dual Lands.

  I like this theory.

[MaximumCDawg]

Turning mox opals into BETTER  lotus petals seems a lil ridic. If were not gonna restrict opal then lets unrestrict petal and just make a hayday of it. Lol.

With this new rule, a deck with 4 gaeas cradle and 4 garruk that draws could be interesting.

I think Cradle's benefit from this rule is only marginal.  It is there, but you could always abuse crop rotation in this way to get sort of the same affect.  Getting to run four cradles without the rotations saves some deck space, for sure, and means the card is going higher in price than it is... but I don't think it's super amazing or anything.

How does this work with jin-gitaxis, is there a way to cast 2 and draw 14 cards?

Hm.  Jin says:

Flash
At the beginning of your end step, draw seven cards.
Each opponent's maximum hand size is reduced by seven.

So say you have a Jin out around the beginning of your end step.  If you flash in a second one before the end step, one will die and only one ability will trigger.  If you flash it in after your end step has begun, one will die but only the first one was around to make the trigger at the beggining of the end step.

So, no, I dont think so.

This update makes Venser a descent counter, bounce card.

How so...?  I don't remember Venser being unplayed because he was a Legend.  It was because he costs to darn much for Vintage.

Does this now lead to an infinite loop with 2 sharuums??

Sure, but that was always the case.  Old style:  One Sharuum on the field, a second one (or clone) comes in.  The ETB trigger goes on the stack.  Both die.  ETB resolves, bringing back Sharuum.  Another ETB trigger on stack.  Get the clone / second Sharrum.  Rinse and repeat.  

Now, its the same thing but only one Sharuum croaks.  When the second one shows up, ETB on the stack, then kill it as a state based action.  ETB resolves, bringing second one back.  Repeat.

I also like how it helps the dragons from kamigawa. Imagine oath with 4 of the white dragons, I think thats a pretty big tangle wire for ur opponent every turn lol.

Yeah, I guess?  Oath T1, Yosei arrives and is a 5/5.  Assuming you don't die to a Golem attack, next turn second Yosei arrives and locks down the enemy.  First Yosei swings for 5.  Do it again, swing for 10.  Do it again, swing for 15.  Enemy remains locked down until your next untap step when you swing for winnar.

So this works, but it has two big drawbacks:
(1) It's a big package for Oath compared to alot of other smaller ones like Grislebrand or Maniac.
(2) If you draw even one of your dorks, now you can't insta win.
(3) Gotta pass the turn with a 5/5 dork on the board before you can win.
(4) I suspect it's actually just worse than Runescar Demon, but they're doing largely the same thing, and I guess Yosei beats spheres.

The REAL DEAL combo that is now enabled by this, as far as I can tell, is Dark Stage.
(1) Have 3 mana, Dark Depths, Thespian Stage.
(2) Make Stage into a Depths.
(3) Stage has no counters, trigger goes on the stack to make a 20/20
(3) Legend rule applies as state based effect; choose to sac original Depths.
(4) Trigger resolves, sac Stage and get Merit Lage or whoever.

Doesn't work with Vesuva since it ETB as a copy of Depths and so gets the counters.  I think.

This combo is expensive, but because it only requires LANDS this seems really powerful.  Better than Hexmage, I think.  I am scared of Landstill running a playset of each land, and then nothing but countermagic and hate cards.  Talk about a good finisher...

[MaximumCDawg]

Calling it now.  Within the next two blocks they are going to have Legendary Dual Lands.

Get out.

I hope you're right and all, but I cannot see this happening.  Fetches + legendary duals with this new rule are just about as powerful as the old fashioned ones.  Heck, I usually only run two of each relevant dual in my Vintage decks already to make room for basics.

[DubDub]

Thrun, the Penultimate Troll.

Thrun, a Troll

Calling it now.  Within the next two blocks they are going to have Legendary Dual Lands.

And they will be Mythic, because $$$.

[MaximumCDawg]

Thrun, the Penultimate Troll.

Thrun, a Troll

Calling it now.  Within the next two blocks they are going to have Legendary Dual Lands.

And they will be Mythic, because $$$.

Market says they could go for $100 as singles and people would pay it. 

Hooray not solving any problems about entry into Modern!

[DubDub]

I really, really, can't get over the change in flavor to Planeswalkers and Legendary permanents.  What makes them "Legendary" in the English-word sense?  We went from 'there can be only one!' to 'everybody only gets one... unless you want to play a second to get pseudo-Vigilance/another mana ability activation/another ETB trigger!'  How are we supposed to think of Planeswalkers as our allies when they can at the exact same time be facing off against us?

Experienced Player: "So Chandra is a 'persistent character' who's unique and planeswalks to all these different places."
New Player: "Cool!"
Exp. Player: "Also she can ping an opponent and redirect the damage to herself (the copy the opponent controls)."
New Player: "What, why would she, Chandra, do that?  That's dumb."

You're right, new player, that's dumb.  This is a complete and utter flavor-fail.

Honestly if the point was to change how clones work they could have just errata'd all Clone effects to give/retain the text "This creature has Clone."  And then define an interaction between Legends and Legends with 'Clone'.

Just about the only saving grace for this change is if it opens the door to printing Legendary dual lands (while avoiding SBE land destruction).  Which, as already discussed, will most likely end up being quite expensive anyway, maintaining the barrier to Eternal formats and possibly increasing it for top-tier Modern Decks.

Actually, thinking about it more, it seems clear that the intended implicit flavor interpretation here is not just different Planes, but a whole Magic Multiverse!  Why did I not think of this before?  Obviously I must go draw Fu Manchus on all my Planeswalkers and Legendary Creatures, so that, like evil-Spock, my opponents will know I have the Mirror-Universe version of Jace.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Turning mox opals into BETTER  lotus petals seems a lil ridic. If were not gonna restrict opal then lets unrestrict petal and just make a hayday of it. Lol.

What do you mean better lotus petal? Was in away petal needed metal craft.

[DubDub]

The best way to make flavor shine is to get more people to play with the flavorful cards.

Link.

Oh.  Duh.  Right.

If we both have a Jace that's two MORE flavorful cards than if neither of us have a Jace.  ...Unless, wait, unless Jace no longer has flavor because he's supposed to be a unique, persistent character and now there are CLEARLY TWO OF HIM.

The best way to make flavor shine is to make ridiculous changes and know, just know, that the blowback will die out with time, because the damage-on-the-stack change settled that question.

FTFY MaRo.

Yes, at times it makes flavor that doesn’t make sense, but the gameplay was so much superior that we decided to suck up a slight flavor hit.

Link.

Oh, so you admit there was a flavor hit?  I thought the best way yadda-yadda-yadda, no?  Also, I'm really looking forward to the mirrored boardstate in a Legacy match of:
Jace
Elspeth
Karakas
Vendilion Clique
Geist of St. Traft
Jitte

Gonna be some really really great gameplay. /sarcasm

[KrauserKrauser]

There is a good chance that Gaea's Cradle may be banned in Legacy with these changes.

There is now no reason not to play them as a 4 of in Elves and it makes a good deck that much better.

Mox Opal should definitely be restricted in Vintage now.  If Lotus Petal gets the axe, say goodbye to Opal.

Since the next b/r list comes out before the changes go into effect, I doubt anyone will be able to have fun with 4xMox Opal.

[psyburat]

Since the next b/r list comes out before the changes go into effect, I doubt anyone will be able to have fun with 4xMox Opal.

"It is not currently expected that these rules changes will bring about any changes to the Modern, Legacy, or Vintage Banned and Restricted lists, but we will be keeping a close eye on the formats between the release of Magic 2014 Core Set and Theros, and we will make any changes if they are deemed necessary." - Sam Stoddard

Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248f

[KrauserKrauser]

Well then, it may miss the NYSE Open but it might have some relevance for Gen Con and Champs, if they ever announce when and where that is going to be.

[Smmenen]

There is a good chance that Gaea's Cradle may be banned in Legacy with these changes.

There is now no reason not to play them as a 4 of in Elves and it makes a good deck that much better.

Mox Opal should definitely be restricted in Vintage now.  If Lotus Petal gets the axe, say goodbye to Opal.

Since the next b/r list comes out before the changes go into effect, I doubt anyone will be able to have fun with 4xMox Opal.

Disagree for a bunch of reasons.  First, the primary limitation on mox Opal still exists.   People should stop saying it's Lotus Petal.  It's not.   You can't use Mox Opal unless you have Metalcraft.   And you can't achieve metalcraft with multiple Mox Opals

Even worse, the more Mox Opal you run, the less likely you are going to be able to actually achieve Metalcraft at any point in the first place.  This doesn't make Mox Opal a 4 of.  It makes it a better 2 or 3 of.  

Mox Opal gets marginally better with this announcement, but let's not pretend its Lotus Petal because it's not.  Not even close. 

[KrauserKrauser]

New colorless win condition that could work in a MUD shell. 

Thespian Stage + Dark Depths

Uncounterable indestructible 20/20's anyone?

[nataz]

It was mentioned on the last page as well.

problem with MUD is that its a two card combo. You gotta find it with out card draw which is annoying. Sure, you can run 4 copies each, but that takes 8 full slots. Maybe something like monte carlo two card monte with serum powder?

[rooneg]

It was mentioned on the last page as well.

problem with MUD is that its a two card combo. You gotta find it with out card draw which is annoying. Sure, you can run 4 copies each, but that takes 8 full slots. Maybe something like monte carlo with serum powder?

Expedition Map gives you a colorless tutor for both sides of the combo...

[nataz]

but then you have to cast a spell...

Why not play vault/key?

[TheWhiteDragon]

New colorless win condition that could work in a MUD shell. 

Thespian Stage + Dark Depths

Uncounterable indestructible 20/20's anyone?

I don't get it...how does this work???

[MaximumCDawg]

Cmon white, its like ten posts up.

The REAL DEAL combo that is now enabled by this, as far as I can tell, is Dark Stage.
(1) Have 3 mana, Dark Depths, Thespian Stage.
(2) Make Stage into a Depths.
(3) Stage has no counters, trigger goes on the stack to make a 20/20
(3) Legend rule applies as state based effect; choose to sac original Depths.
(4) Trigger resolves, sac Stage and get Merit Lage or whoever.

Doesn't work with Vesuva since it ETB as a copy of Depths and so gets the counters.  I think.

This combo is expensive, but because it only requires LANDS this seems really powerful.  Better than Hexmage, I think.  I am scared of Landstill running a playset of each land, and then nothing but countermagic and hate cards.  Talk about a good finisher...

[tribet]

I think somebody mentioned that this combo could be sweet in Standstill!
Does Vesuva/Dark Depths works the same way?

[nataz]

lol, literally mentioned in the post above you, which is a quote from the first page. Its like dawg is invisible.

Again, with landstill, how many slots would you use? I was thinking maybe the old dark depths list but swap out the 2/1 critter.

@dawg, why does it cost 3 mana? stage activation only costs two.

[MaximumCDawg]

Oh, yea.  Was unconsciously counting stage itself.   Ok, moar busted then.

[tribet]

Nataz, that was very funny indeed! I'm just reading a couple of forums at once.  

I'm no expert of Landstill so I'm sure some can answer better. Would you start by removing the 4 Mishra's? Maybe 3 of each Depth & T.Stage, instead of 4+4 since Landstill is not trying to combo in the early turns and it can also rely on Crucibles and 5 Acalls.

In Dark Depths, I think you now want to keep some HexMages to kill more Jaces than you will ever see being played! And you don't want Marit Lage to be bounced back!

[serracollector]

Why is opal better than petal? Because the last one gets to stay in play thats why. The other 2-3 are the petals. And don't act like metalcraft is even a hindrence in Vinatage, 5 mox, 4 chrome, lotus, crypt, sol, vault, 4 grim, 4 expedition map, 4 voltaic key, time vault, lions eye diamond, hell even seat of synod or vault of whispers if you choose. Of all people steven menendian I think you would see the brokedness here. I dont know how many times I have tapped a mox opal for mana, then cast another just for storm, and to kill both before casting a draw 7 in the hopes of drawing another. Now thats going to give me storm count, at least 1 extra mana, and possibly give me the chance to draw 1 of my other 3 for more mana and storm count. Opal is easily in vintage a BETTER lotus petal.

[hashswag]

Everything feels broken when you're already going off. It's your opening hand that having 3-4 Mox Opals in your deck can hurt. It can prevent you from quickly reaching that critical mass of mana and bombs to be able to pull neat tricks like chaining them together.

[Qasur]

Calling it now.  Within the next two blocks they are going to have Legendary Dual Lands.

I have spent time thinking this through. A legendary cycle of "real" dual lands would be stellar for the game. Most eternal lists use 1-3 max, but usually 3 usea, 2 tundra/trop/volc for 3 color lists. It would be easy to fill in one of each with a cheaper legendary one.

$100/each? Give me a break. You only want one, not four, and land cycles are usually rare, not mythic. Would create lots of quick supply for 1 land, but would drive down demand for original duals, but to to zero. Net result is cheaper, easier to acquire landbase.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Why is opal better than petal? Because the last one gets to stay in play thats why. The other 2-3 are the petals. And don't act like metalcraft is even a hindrence in Vinatage, 5 mox, 4 chrome, lotus, crypt, sol, vault, 4 grim, 4 expedition map, 4 voltaic key, time vault, lions eye diamond, hell even seat of synod or vault of whispers if you choose. Of all people steven menendian I think you would see the brokedness here. I dont know how many times I have tapped a mox opal for mana, then cast another just for storm, and to kill both before casting a draw 7 in the hopes of drawing another. Now thats going to give me storm count, at least 1 extra mana, and possibly give me the chance to draw 1 of my other 3 for more mana and storm count. Opal is easily in vintage a BETTER lotus petal.

I've played a lot of mox opal, in burning long and drain decks like painter. You are grossly over estimating the consistency of metalcraft. Also how crappy some metalcraft openers can be. I'd also suggest you change your list of artifacts to something someone would feasibly play... or add memnite and ornathoptor to "drive the point home." What with the playability of expedition-map and the playerbase's desire to run 4x key and all. I also don't think a 4x opal deck would be a 4x grim monolith deck either, things with that desire for acceleration have better ways to net mana, with colors even, and from that point forward you have a threat density issue.


Obviously opal is going to be a thing combo can utilize, but that deck has a pretty heavily lean towards oath of druids now a days. Opal is commonly considered the shittiest card in that deck, and running more would just exacerbate its current weakness. Personally, I hope opal ups the power of storm and spawns another combo deck. It would give players an option outside of oath of druids for delivering toa in the meta. Do you really think such a thing would break the format beyond want vintage can handle with its plethora of anti-storm cards?


As far as turbo tezz, the deck doesn't want more lotus petals. There is also the issue of being able to cast grim with a: land, mox, opal, grim, 3 blue cards hand. You really just seem to be looking at a list of artifact people are already running and don't really make even a solo opal considerable, and then a list of extremely questionable artifacts, or extremely sub optimal numbers.

Drain decks have better things to do, and shop decks just have better mana sources they're not even running. I highly doubt this will be an issue, no matter how many bad or poorly though out artifact combinations people can fire randomly from the hip at me.

[serracollector]

Have you not seen the mono blue belcher lists running 4 opal, 7 draw 7s and 1 academy? Even tho its a glass cannon having 4 mox opal that are all going to give mana now does give this deck a boost in power. 1 mana is a huge difference.

[Smmenen]

Why is opal better than petal? Because the last one gets to stay in play thats why. The other 2-3 are the petals. And don't act like metalcraft is even a hindrence in Vinatage, 5 mox, 4 chrome, lotus, crypt, sol, vault, 4 grim, 4 expedition map, 4 voltaic key, time vault, lions eye diamond, hell even seat of synod or vault of whispers if you choose. Of all people steven menendian I think you would see the brokedness here. I dont know how many times I have tapped a mox opal for mana, then cast another just for storm, and to kill both before casting a draw 7 in the hopes of drawing another. Now thats going to give me storm count, at least 1 extra mana, and possibly give me the chance to draw 1 of my other 3 for more mana and storm count. Opal is easily in vintage a BETTER lotus petal.

For the millionth time: Lotus Petal doesn't have Metalcraft.

Mox Opal isn't even close to Lotus Petal.