Budget deck for sanctioned.

[psyburat]

If you do try to play a Noble Fish variant, opt for a build without Delver of Secrets, as the deck is a creature deck and not a spell deck.  With fetchlands replacing power you'll be able to properly support a UGwb build with Deathrite Shaman.  That guy should be maximized before Noble Hierarch at this point.

[TheWhiteDragon]

One important question.  Do you already own tarmogoyfs, thoughtseizes, wastelands, and dark confidants?

[Protoaddict]

Answer me this. Is a un-powered version of a deck that normally runs lotus, 3 moxen, Ancestral and timewalk really a better option than just playing dredge? At least with something like white trash you are only giving up 2 pieces of power.

You are giving up a lot to play this list without power, and it still going to have a huge price tag. With dredge you give up nothing and can play the deck optimally no problem.

I also don't think that the combat math and sideboard questions with dredge are really any more complex than a zoo list or even something like workshops. There are some dredge sideboards from lists that have done great and also won event that were 4/4/4/3 in their 15.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Because nobody has mentioned it, Doomsday barely cares about its moxen, but Lotus and Ancestral are mandatory to have access to key piles. Still, only two pieces of power that way.

[John Cox]

Um. You should test your deck, including post-board games, regardless of your deck choice.

Most of my practice is really suspect. I'm the only vintage player I know. I'll be playing against modern and legacy players with my own mostly proxied decks. I can pick up a deck like merfolk and have have some idea of how to make it work because the power level of the cards it interacts with is more obvious.
The other part of this (that psyburat touched on) is that I'm not doing this to win. I don't get the chance to play many vintage tournaments so wining one isn't as important as having fun with a deck I like at a really great venue.

One important question.  Do you already own tarmogoyfs, thoughtseizes, wastelands, and dark confidants?

I don't have Tarmogoyf or wasteland but I have the rest.

Would the BUG fish list from BoM be worth looking into? (It didn't play Tarmogoyf) or just noble fish?

Because nobody has mentioned it, Doomsday barely cares about its moxen, but Lotus and Ancestral are mandatory to have access to key piles. Still, only two pieces of power that way.

I would love to play doomsday, Could that be done with mana crypt instead of lotus?
A pile like;

Top
--------
ancestral
maniac
probe
mana crypt
probe
-------
Bottom

would win on the spot with a cantrip in hand for  + the cost of the cantrip.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Typically, it's Gush + Doomsday -> mana-free win.

Gush into:
Lotus
Ancestral
Maniac
Petal
Yawg Will

The last two slots vary on your hand/extra mana. You can add protection of various sorts or cantrip out instead of using will.

[msg67183]

Doomsday is a dog to Workshops though, I would go with the BUG Fish list from BoM, it's very strong.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Doomsday is a dog to Workshops though, I would go with the BUG Fish list from BoM, it's very strong.

That's simply not true. You throw something like a 10-card sideboard at the matchup.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Considering you won't have to pay for bobs/seizes, here's a list I run that does very well locally.  It's my version of dark times.

// Lands
    3  Dark Depths
    2  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    3  Swamp
    2  Thespian's Stage
    4  Verdant Catacombs
    1  Forest
    3  Bayou

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Vampire Hexmage
    2  Deathrite Shaman
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    4  Duress
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Dark Ritual
    1  Mox Jet
    2  Thoughtseize
    2  Liliana of the Veil
    2  Null Rod
    3  Hymn to Tourach (4)
    4  Pithing Needle
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Abrupt Decay

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 2  Abrupt Decay
SB: 3  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [V10] AEther Vial
SB: 2  Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1  Ancient Tomb
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void

You could replace lotus with petal.  Tarmgoyfs will run you about $400, Bayous about $180 for 3, catacombs about $90 for 4, jet about $350, 2 liliana about $80.  You could peice the rest of the deck together for roughly $150.  I don't even run emerald because you have fetches for a lone basic forest and are good to go which fills all your green needs.  Emerald doesn't help a fast hexmage either, so it's use is marginal.  The deck doesn't care for colorless mana much.  Also, null rods are great and emerald just gets whacked by them.  You may consider 2 null rods in sb instead of 1 if you face more timevault/storm decks.  You'll notice the exclusion of wastelands and the inclusion of 4 pithing needles.  You can guess what needle names 99% of the time since your combo relies on a nonbasic land.  Pithing needle is also great at whacking jace and bazaar.  Sometimes I'll even ritual into discard and see they are holding fetches and name needle on polluted delta or whatnot for the almost sure win.  You can skimp on the 3rd bayou to save $60 since 2 duals and a basic forest are ample green to fetch for.  The 2 deathrites help there too (and the bloodstaineds are not necessary, but I like them for thinning and shaman food).  You'll also see I only run 2 rituals.  I hate the card disadvantage of them and they are a dog to shops.  I found deathrites to be a tad slower, but incredibly more versatile...especially in the smash face plan B.  Some games you get disruption and a quick depths combo....some games disruption and bobs, hexmages, tarmogoyfs for the beatdown.  Abrupt decay is stupidly good too.

Even if you don't run this, I'd sleeve it up and test drive it.  Some people will claim it needs to have yawgwill/tendrils (but I hate losing to shops/thalia), and others will swear by crucible strips/waste with max rods....but I tell you this aggro version is very solid, and 4 pithing needle is much better than trying to out wasteland opposing wastelands.  To heck with those who hate trying anything that isn't a netdeck...live on the edge my friend.

[rooneg]

Doomsday is a dog to Workshops though, I would go with the BUG Fish list from BoM, it's very strong.

Sure it's strong, but it's also playing $3k worth of power.  I'd hardly call that budget.  Can you play it without the 3 moxen, lotus, walk and ancestral?  Sure, but it's not the same deck at all.

[psyburat]

Doomsday is a dog to Workshops though, I would go with the BUG Fish list from BoM, it's very strong.

That's simply not true. You throw something like a 10-card sideboard at the matchup.

Nope, it's definitely a dog to Workshops, and I had a 10-card sideboard.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Which build? My experience is that the Ritual builds perform better because they're less reliant on getting BBB from Lotus or multiple duals.

[nataz]

you may want to troll through the big euro event reports. They often have prizes for top unpowered player, and that at least gives you a proven base to work from.

[Blue Lotus]

Elves is really fun. Thanks to things like arbor elf and qurion ranger, forests are arguably better than artifact acceleration, and certainly more consistant.

Playing against shops makes you want to cry, but the same can be said for most decks in the shop matchup.

[psyburat]

Which build? My experience is that the Ritual builds perform better because they're less reliant on getting BBB from Lotus or multiple duals.

My four reported finishes:

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1724&d=8

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1714&d=6

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1692&d=6

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1678&d=7

[msg67183]

Shops is the reason that Ad Nauseum, Doomsday, Elves! And most other budget decks are very hard to play. They just get rolled by the consistency and resiliency of their top decks. The only budget deck I see being "viable" with so many Workshops is TMWA, but that deck is hard against other decks due to the high amount of Workshop hate main. Although it may work.

[msg67183]

What if one wanted to play an unpowered variant of Merfolk or Noble Fish. What would such a list use to accompany such a budget?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Which build? My experience is that the Ritual builds perform better because they're less reliant on getting BBB from Lotus or multiple duals.

My four reported finishes:

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1724&d=8

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1714&d=6

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1692&d=6

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1678&d=7

The optimal Doomsday deck is a substantial discussion for a different thread, but we differ by a few slots. I run Mana Crypt main and additional Moxen in my sideboard. I also run more proactive measures over the Missteps.

[psyburat]

The optimal Doomsday deck is a substantial discussion for a different thread, but we differ by a few slots. I run Mana Crypt main and additional Moxen in my sideboard. I also run more proactive measures over the Missteps.

@Matt: Given the lack of citation in AmbivalentDuck's post to success with this mystery build, I continue to agree with your sentiment that Doomsday is a dog to Workshops, even with a 10-card sideboard, and agree that BUG Fish as a solid choice.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Matt: Given the lack of citation in AmbivalentDuck's post to success with this mystery build, I continue to agree with your sentiment that Doomsday is a dog to Workshops, even with a 10-card sideboard, and agree that BUG Fish as a solid choice.

I don't attend physical tourneys: negative expected value even if I expect to top8 every time given travel costs. Also, you've evidenced that you've played something like 25 matches with the deck, none of which are in the last few months.

If we're going to stoop to calling such sparse tournament play evidence, here's a winning build that's far more recent.
It does several things right including bothering to run Crypt and not needing to fetch a Trop to deal with artifacts. At the same time, they completely drop Fastbond which is pretty much retarded.

[msg67183]

So, instead of arguing back and forth about Doomsday being or not being a dog to Workshops, why not talk about what the thread was meant for, building budget decks for a sanctioned event.
My question is: what deck is possible without power besides Dredge?
I'm not sure how solid it is but I read about people looking into Vintage Hypergenesis and thought it was interesting. So I put a list together with the intention of being pretty budget but also attempt to be competitive. I chose to omit Gush, play rainbow lands, and add Demonic Dread to the Cascade Suite. I also increased the Show and Tell number to 3 to have a fallback plan. Here is my list:

Vintage Hypergenesis

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Shardless Agent
4 Violent Outburst
4 Demonic Dread

3 Show and Tell
2 Hypergenesis

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Omniscience
3 Griselbrand
2 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
2 Blightsteel Colossus

And for my Sideboard:

4 Ingot Chewer
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Richochet Trap

Like I said I'm not sure how well it would do, but in theory it seems strong. And if it isn't that good, it would be a hell lot of fun to play!

[Samoht]

This is strictly worse than just playing Eureka. I'm aware that's more expensive, but cutting out all of the good cards is a bad plan.

[msg67183]

Like I said I figured it wasn't good. What would someone play in decks like Merfolk without Power?

[AmbivalentDuck]

My question is: what deck is possible without power besides Dredge?

No other deck is even nearly optimal without power. Doomsday cares less than most about it's Moxen, even if it leans on Lotus and Ancestral. It's arguably very close to its full power level without Moxen. Any aggro-control build wants access to turn 1 2 cmc drops, and likely turn 2 Trygons.

Said another way, generally the fewer Moxes you run, the worse your Workshop matchup. Unless you're on Dredge. So if you're already losing to powered Shops, either pray you get lucky in your matchups and run Doomsday or just run Dredge.

[msg67183]

The fewer moxen you run the worse your Workshop matchup will be?
Landstill runs 1-2 and does well against Workshops, ask Josh I'm sure he will agree.
RG Beats CAN run 0 moxen and be good against Workshops, Spirit Guides are a thing.
So no I don't agree with your argument.

[Samoht]

The fewer moxen you run the worse your Workshop matchup will be?
Landstill runs 1-2 and does well against Workshops, ask Josh I'm sure he will agree.
RG Beats CAN run 0 moxen and be good against Workshops, Spirit Guides are a thing.
So no I don't agree with your argument.

Moxes let you build out of Spheres if they don't have Chalice. Another way to do this is with Ancient Tomb.

Landstill runs infinite pitch counters to prevent being Sphere locked,, that's why it works.

RG Beats can't beat a Blue deck, that's the problem.

[msg67183]

Why can't RG Beats beat blue? Vexing Shusher? REB? Pyroblast? Stingscourger for BSC? Chalice of the Void to prevent Blue players from casting spells. Phyrexian Revoker and Null Rod to answer fast mana.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Landstill can certainly be played without power. I have already ran landstill with only lotus and recall as the power in the deck. You could potentially build landstill without power and run lotus petal and maybe 1 or 2 diamonds. Obviously the biggest loss is recall but you could make due without.  That being said the rest of the deck is still pretty pricey...

[vaughnbros]

Why can't RG Beats beat blue? Vexing Shusher? REB? Pyroblast? Stingscourger for BSC? Chalice of the Void to prevent Blue players from casting spells. Phyrexian Revoker and Null Rod to answer fast mana.

RG is not good because it doesn't have a way of generating card advantage and it doesn't handle fast starts well.  It's also not exactly cheap to build non proxy.  A play set of goyf and the mana base will run you $700+.  Seems like quite a bit for a subpar deck.

Dredge isn't really budget either due to the price of bazaar.  And neither is landstill due to the mana base, drains, and jace.  Both of those decks will be easily over $1000 unless you get some good deals.

The best competitive budget deck has to be powerless Merfolk.  You can probably get that together for $600 or less and actually have a decent shot at winning.

I doubt many people are coming from completely nothing though.  So playing the deck you already have most of the cards for is probably the best route for anyone.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Given the bobs and seizes already owned, I still say Dark Times is best (even if you sub lotus for a petal or ritual or something).  The deck outside of those cards is extremely cheap, especially the sans wasteland build I posted. Even if you started from scratch, you can put it together and win for under a thousand.

Cutting ancestral and lotus from blue decks seems bad.  Landstill is not at all cheap with Jaces etc, and doomsday needs lotus + ancestral to be close to optimal, which alone puts you near $1200.

Merfolk can be fun....but seems pretty meh overall.  DT FTW.