[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays Podcast # 27: M14 Vintage Set Review

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4119

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review M14 for Vintage. Also, we discuss Theros Duals, Oracle updates, and our Dragon’s Maze report card.




Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:24:30 — 80.7MB)

Timestamped Table of Contents:
0:02:42: Theros Dual Lands
0:11:40: Oracle Updates
0:26:18: Dragon’s Maze Report Card
0:36:20: Chandra, Pyromaster
0:43:35: Glimpse the Future
0:45:52: Young Pyromancer
1:01:28: Strionic Resonator (Cromulent Resonator)
1:07:55: Imposing Sovereign
1:10:57: Mindsparker
1:14:25: Banisher Priest
1:16:08: Dark Prophecy
1:18:44: Haunted Plate Mail
Total runtime: 1:24:30

Show Notes

- M14 Set
- M14 Oracle Updates
- Team Serious Vintage Open in Columbus, OH – July 27
- Eudomania Summer Vintage Tournament in Berkeley, OH – July 28
- Odyssey Games Vintage Tournament in Kalamazoo, MI – August 3

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:24:30 — 80.7MB)

[Phele]

Thanks for providing that nice review.

Just one question:

- Steve, you seem to be pretty enthusiastic about Young Pyromancer revitalizing the Gro archetype in Vintage and Pyro beeing pretty strong against Workshops. Compared to Dryad: While Pyromancer is in the stronger colour, is much harder to remove entirely (leaving at least a few tokens on the board and Metamorph not working against it) and can help against Tangle Wire, doesn't it still not solve the main problem the Gro archetype has against Workshops - being to dependent on cantrips and chaining Instants and Sorceries?

I love this new card and also think that it has lots of potential paired with Gush. It could act as a nice but some times pretty slow win condition wich also provides a combo finish in combination with Fastbond. In this role it must be included in some four colour builds. Otherwise i could see it without combo finish as a nice beater in some URg builds, pretty similar to existing RUG Delver builds. The last one would probably have a stronger shops matchups than the four colour one, but Tarmogoyf might still be better in this kind of builds.

[Smmenen]

Psyburat requested that we review Galerider Sliver, and we did not...

Only because Kevin forgot to include in our review list every item recommended on twitter.  Sorry, we had a communications #fail there. 

I haven't actually read every spoiler in this set, even the new cards.  I didn't write a set review for M14, so I only read the cards that Kevin put on our list. 

Someone also asked we review Tidebender Mage -- again we didn't.  Still, feedback is welcome. 

[rilegard]

I'm Glad to hear Steve quite well in this podcast!
Although I know this is a review from a Vintage viewpoint, I'd like to point that barrage of expendables is an immediate improvement over goblin bombardment. Even the cost reduction, that may not be enough to pass the Legacy barrier.

[Vennie]

I'm Glad to hear Steve quite well in this podcast!
Although I know this is a review from a Vintage viewpoint, I'd like to point that barrage of expendables is an immediate improvement over goblin bombardment. Even the cost reduction, that may not be enough to pass the Legacy barrier.

No that is not true. Goblin bombardment does not require you to pay  each time you activate it. Barrage of Expendables does require  for each activation.

[rilegard]

I'm Glad to hear Steve quite well in this podcast!
Although I know this is a review from a Vintage viewpoint, I'd like to point that barrage of expendables is an immediate improvement over goblin bombardment. Even the cost reduction, that may not be enough to pass the Legacy barrier.

No that is not true. Goblin bombardment does not require you to pay  each time you activate it. Barrage of Expendables does require  for each activation.

Yeah! blinded by the casting cost I never took into account the activation cost...

[Smmenen]

I'm Glad to hear Steve quite well in this podcast!
Although I know this is a review from a Vintage viewpoint, I'd like to point that barrage of expendables is an immediate improvement over goblin bombardment. Even the cost reduction, that may not be enough to pass the Legacy barrier.

Yes!  I'm not sure why, but the audio was clear this time!

Thanks for providing that nice review.

Just one question:

- Steve, you seem to be pretty enthusiastic about Young Pyromancer revitalizing the Gro archetype in Vintage and Pyro beeing pretty strong against Workshops. Compared to Dryad: While Pyromancer is in the stronger colour, is much harder to remove entirely (leaving at least a few tokens on the board and Metamorph not working against it) and can help against Tangle Wire, doesn't it still not solve the main problem the Gro archetype has against Workshops - being to dependent on cantrips and chaining Instants and Sorceries?

I love this new card and also think that it has lots of potential paired with Gush. It could act as a nice but some times pretty slow win condition wich also provides a combo finish in combination with Fastbond. In this role it must be included in some four colour builds. Otherwise i could see it without combo finish as a nice beater in some URg builds, pretty similar to existing RUG Delver builds. The last one would probably have a stronger shops matchups than the four colour one, but Tarmogoyf might still be better in this kind of builds.

Could you clarify your question? 

[Phele]

Do you think that Pyromancers improvement over Quirion Dryad is enough to overcome Gro's fundamental weakness against Workshop decks?

[Smmenen]

I thought I answered that in the podcast.  The horizontal disrribution of counters is Insane against workshops, enough to overcome structural Gush defects in that matchuo because he is so tactically powerful. Consider the examples I set out in the podcast.

[MaximumCDawg]

Awesome, a new episode!  Will listen tonight.  I'm interested why you are looking at glimpse the future at all, given that it appears flat out worse than forbidden alchemy...

[forests failed you]

Glimpse the Future is a joke.  BRING BACK STRATEGIC PLANNING!

[Smmenen]

Exactly  

Awesome, a new episode!  Will listen tonight.  I'm interested why you are looking at glimpse the future at all, given that it appears flat out worse than forbidden alchemy...

You'll have to ask Kevin, but as you can hear in the podcast, he included it because it is functionally identical to Strategic Planning except costs more mana.  I think he just included it to talk about the line between playable and unplayable 3cc blue draw/tutor spells. 

[DubDub]

Yep, I too was expecting a discussion centering on why they didn't reprint Strategic Planning, calling them out for not doing so, basically.

The comparison to Forbidden Alchemy is unkind too: sorcery speed instead of instant, doesn't dig as deep, no flashback.  What the heck is the point of Glimpse the Future?  Glimpse is even at a higher rarity (uncommon versus common for Alchemy).  Just dumb.

I wonder if at one point they had Strategic Planning in the set, and then wimped out at the end, tacking on a and a new name without thinking about Alchemy?  Planning was also an uncommon, so it's not like they could claim they "needed that rare slot."

[MaximumCDawg]

Yep, I too was expecting a discussion centering on why they didn't reprint Strategic Planning, calling them out for not doing so, basically.

Probably because they're terrified about enabling combo in Modern.  They just axed Ponder and Preordain, after all.

[Smmenen]

It was great fun to finally talk at length about City in a Bottle and Young Pyromancer.  Hope folks enjoyed those segments...

[MaximumCDawg]

Fishing for compliments like a teenage girl on facebook, are we?  Heh, I guess you deserve it for providing such consistently high quality Vintage discussion.  yes, those segments were good, but like your last few set reviews I feel like the community on themanadrain kind of covered much of the same ground you did.  And more, with pyromancer; quiet speculation with a pyromancer in play (grabbing cabal therapies) is sick, sick, sick!  Good to get your professional input, though, and great for people who don't post here.

I was happy you only spent a few seconds on glimpse.  Garbage card is garbage.  Still, I get kevins point.  It was kind of like how you covered possibility storm in your last review.

Per your question, yes pyromancer will see the most play.  I don't think its even close.

When are we gonna see more vintage scenarios?

[Stormanimagus]

Fiend Hunter is not strictly worse than banisher priest as you guys seemed to be implying. Fiend Hunter survives a Pyroclasm and a Bob Attack. This guy does not. Just wanted to clear that up

-Storm

[MaximumCDawg]

Fiend Hunter is not strictly worse than banisher priest as you guys seemed to be implying. Fiend Hunter survives a Pyroclasm and a Bob Attack. This guy does not. Just wanted to clear that up

-Storm

Plus, though seldom relevant in Vintage, Banisher Priest does not allow stack shenanigans involving bouncing or blinking the permanent in order to permanently exile something.

But I think Steve and Kevin are right, in that a 2/2 is probably better for Vintage humans decks than a 1/3, all else being equal.  Pyroclasm wrecks your face no matter what in a humans deck, and if you have  1/3 afterwards... hooray?  Blocking Bob is rarely relevant because when Bob matters, the controller won't involve him in combat.  He trades badly with just about any creature in an aggro deck.  The things you really want to block -- goyf, lodestone, delver, etc -- all go through a 1/3 as easily as a 2/2.

[Smmenen]

Fiend Hunter is not strictly worse than banisher priest as you guys seemed to be implying. Fiend Hunter survives a Pyroclasm and a Bob Attack. This guy does not. Just wanted to clear that up

-Storm

Neither one of us, I believe, said that Banisher Priest was "strictly superior."  Any implication is purely your own inference, and not our intent. 

Psyburat is quite mad at us for not reviewing Slivers.  Is there a legitimate belief that Slivers are of value in Vintage?   I haven't seen Countersliver in this format in many, many years. 

[Guli]

Finally, the set review

Fiend Hunter is better, Human decks are not concerned with that extra power, it is actually a nice wall as a 1/3 and with a mayor around it is bolt proof.

Slivers? I recently saw one take second place for what it is worth. The flying sliver could introduce a serious and constant unlockable clock and thump some aggro decks with slivers on the play. They could use force, fluster, traps, missteps to deal with combo and control. Edric could be a draw engine. It is possible

My mind is thinking of a list like this:

2 Bonescythe Sliver
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Mental Misstep
3 Tundra
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Mutavault
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misdirection
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
1 Sinew Sliver
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

[psyburat]

Psyburat is quite mad at us for not reviewing Slivers.  Is there a legitimate belief that Slivers are of value in Vintage?   I haven't seen Countersliver in this format in many, many years.  

I wouldn't say "quite mad" (emotions on the Internet, etc.), although I was shocked and I understand why the oversight happened.  There will be enough people trying it that a few may sneak into your report card.  There was a Thorn of Amethyst list in the results forum a few weeks ago, so I could see that catching on and at least being tried.

EDIT:

It placed second out of twelve here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45470.0

[Smmenen]

In the future I will double check all of the requests to make sure we've included everything folks suggested for review.  I thought Kevin had done that :p (once more throwing Kevin under the bus)

While I like what that Slivers deck is doing, I just don't see Slivers as a viable Vintage strategy at the moment because it requires both a density of slivers, and none of the slivers are inherently disruptive or a source of card advantage like many bears or Bob, although my opinion could change if it performs well over time. 

Thanks for linking...

[MaximumCDawg]

In the future I will double check all of the requests to make sure we've included everything folks suggested for review.  I thought Kevin had done that :p (once more throwing Kevin under the bus)

While I like what that Slivers deck is doing, I just don't see Slivers as a viable Vintage strategy at the moment because it requires both a density of slivers, and none of the slivers are inherently disruptive or a source of card advantage like many bears or Bob, although my opinion could change if it performs well over time. 

Thanks for linking...

Screeching Sliver is the only one that seems pretty inherently disruptive, provided Wizards prints a way to see the opponent's topdeck that isn't terrible.

[Smmenen]

In that case, Wouldn't slivers merely be an inferior aggro-control strategy to Merfolk ?

[brianpk80]

Only got up to the DGM set review so far.  Thanks to you both for continuing to provide such spirited coverage.  The only thing I would add is that there was an event from Lancaster that wasn't reported which included another copy of Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch + Sin Collector in T8 and an event in Australia that ran essentially the same list which took first place.  Both cards also made T16 at NYSE so the Witch is at 3-4 for notable appearances and Sin Collector is at 4-5. 

[MaximumCDawg]

In that case, Wouldn't slivers merely be an inferior aggro-control strategy to Merfolk ?

That's what Slivers are currently.  Merfolk have so many lords that do double duty (LoA gives evasion AND a bump, Rejerry gives a trick AND a bump) that it's really hard to see the point of Slivers.  If they did something to enhance the ability of Slivers that have no comparator in Merfolk, then it starts to diverge as its own deck.

For example, imagine they printed this:

Topdeck Sliver, UG
1/1
Opponents play with the top card of their library revealed.
Slivers you control gain +1/+0.

That would potentially be very interesting.

[psyburat]

Harmonic Sliver is a pretty good Sliver.

[MaximumCDawg]

Harmonic Sliver is a pretty good Sliver.

It's got an edge against Merfolk, maybe, but it seems worse than Pridemage in a vacuum.

EDIT: I went through all of the Silvers recently in an attempt to identify which ones, like Harmonic, do something Merfolk can't do.  Here's what I found:

To this end, I think the Slivers that do something unique from Merfolk, and thus are worthy of discussion as headliners in a Sliver list, are:

Harmonic Sliver (I hear they run artifacts in Vintage)
Cautery Sliver (Ping them hatebears)
Gemhide Sliver // The New One (Merfolk don't get mana acell)
Heart Sliver (Merfolk dont get haste)
Hibernation Sliver (Merfolk don't get bounce)
Dormant Sliver (Merfolk don't get CA on every folk)
Homing Sliver (Merfolk dont get a tutor)
Horned Sliver (Merfolk dont get trample)
Necrotic Sliver (Merfolk dont get Vindicate)
Plague Sliver (Huger than merfolk, albiet painful to run)
Screeching Sliver (Merfok dont get mill)
Sedge Sliver (Merfolk don't get regen)
Telekenetic Sliver (Taps better than Merfolk do)

Not a particularly great list of dudes.  Until there's a reason to run Slivers in Vintage that doesn't revolve around Galerider and Muscle Sliver, I don't think it's going anywhere.  That's why a printing that powers up one of the unique effects, like Screeching Sliver, is so important.

[psyburat]

It's got an edge against Merfolk, maybe, but it seems worse than Pridemage in a vacuum.

We're not exactly comparing Sliver tribal to Cat and/or Wizard tribal here.  Slivers draws the comparison to Merfolk as a disruptive Cavern of Souls deck.  I don't think your sentence is relevant to this conversation.

[MaximumCDawg]

It's got an edge against Merfolk, maybe, but it seems worse than Pridemage in a vacuum.

We're not exactly comparing Sliver tribal to Cat and/or Wizard tribal here.  Slivers draws the comparison to Merfolk as a disruptive Cavern of Souls deck.  I don't think your sentence is relevant to this conversation.

You said Harmonic Sliver was good, and I pointed out it's good if you're comparing Sliver to Merfolk but not if you're comparing it to other decks.  Pridgemage is a Wizard and can certainly fit into tribal Cavern decks. 

Look, the point is that you can only play Slivers if there is a compelling reason to play Slivers instead of Wizards, Humans, Merfolk, whatever.  I don't think it's there yet.  The other tribes offer you better creatures or a more efficient lord-effect.  Unless you just love dem meathooks, in which case, game on I suppose.