[Free Article] Vintage Advantage - Theros Set Review

[GrandpaBelcher]

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/the-vintage-advantage-eternal-devotion/

I look at some of the Theros cards that might sometime maybe get played in Vintage, also point out some of the things I look for when going through a set.

[DubDub]

Yeah, Theros is for the most part an unexciting set for Vintage.  The reintroduction of Scry holds potential, as Preordain demonstrates.  But there were only six cards that had a Scry above 1, one of which is Magma Jet, a reprint, and a few others were overcosted blue creatures.  Scry 1 is a pretty useless thing to do compared to Scrying multiple cards at once.  With Scry 1 you have only two choices: top or bottom.  The worst thing is there are multiple ways to repeated Scry 1 in Theros, but that starts to suck as soon as you find a card you actually want.  The remaining Scry 1's are basically Scry 0's.  With just Scry 2 you get:

Top A, Top B, A first
Top A, Top B, B first
Top A, Bottom B
Top B, Bottom A
Bottom A, Bottom B (technically you could arrange the two bottomed cards in two different ways, but that's only relevant in a negligible number of cases since a shuffle is likely to undo this selection before it becomes relevant).

So many more choices!  Why don't they have the guts to do this more?

[Smmenen]

I'm glad you wrote a set review.  With yours and Demars, I don't really feel a need to add my 2 cents in.  Our podcast covered very similar ground. 

[GrandpaBelcher]

Yeah, I just tried not to be too down on the set. Really the playable cards are probably, in order, Island, Thoughtseize, and Swan Song.

Thanks for reading. I figured it was a good opportunity to get the "what to look for" section in, since I wasn't reviewing a bunch of cards.

[Smmenen]

It's weird though how Jaco says that you are like a technical writer/editor, yet your prose is highly stylistic -- not at all what one would expect from that description!  You compose many sentences that are more than rote description or terse syntax (ala Lapille). 

[GrandpaBelcher]

Me can am write good!

I mean, I work as a technical editor during the day and went to school for creative writing.

[MaximumCDawg]

Something many people are overlooking is that, though Theros is not a great set for Vintage, it is still steathily upgrading and invalidating tons of old cards.

Mesa Pegasus got a strict upgrade.  Ley Druid got a strict upgrade.  Ixidron basically got an upgrade.  There are a bunch of others, I just can't think of them right now.

I feel like Theros is power creeping, it's just doing it in areas that Vintage doesn't care about.

[President Skroob]

Something many people are overlooking is that, though Theros is not a great set for Vintage, it is still steathily upgrading and invalidating tons of old cards.

Mesa Pegasus got a strict upgrade.  Ley Druid got a strict upgrade.  Ixidron basically got an upgrade.  There are a bunch of others, I just can't think of them right now.

I feel like Theros is power creeping, it's just doing it in areas that Vintage doesn't care about.

If I don't see Banding on a "Mesa Pegasus upgrade," it ain't an upgrade in my book.

[vaughnbros]

Something many people are overlooking is that, though Theros is not a great set for Vintage, it is still steathily upgrading and invalidating tons of old cards.

Mesa Pegasus got a strict upgrade.  Ley Druid got a strict upgrade.  Ixidron basically got an upgrade.  There are a bunch of others, I just can't think of them right now.

I feel like Theros is power creeping, it's just doing it in areas that Vintage doesn't care about.

I dont see this as a bad thing.  Considering all of those cards you mentioned aren't even on the radar of the eternal formats maybe they need power creeping.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I dont see this as a bad thing.  Considering all of those cards you mentioned aren't even on the radar of the eternal formats maybe they need power creeping.

Until they print this?

Critter to Break Eternal 
Critter
Flash
When ~this~ ETB, bounce all artifacts.
Discard ~this~, exile a blue card from your hand, and pay 5 life: Counter target spell.
2/1

Funny thing: that barely impacts Standard.

[MaximumCDawg]

I dont see this as a bad thing.  Considering all of those cards you mentioned aren't even on the radar of the eternal formats maybe they need power creeping.

Until they print this?

Critter to Break Eternal 
Critter
Flash
When ~this~ ETB, bounce all artifacts.
Discard ~this~, exile a blue card from your hand, and pay 5 life: Counter target spell.
2/1

Funny thing: that barely impacts Standard.

Kind of a far cry from making Ley Druid cost one less, Duck.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I dont see this as a bad thing.  Considering all of those cards you mentioned aren't even on the radar of the eternal formats maybe they need power creeping.

Until they print this?

Critter to Break Eternal 
Critter
Flash
When ~this~ ETB, bounce all artifacts.
Discard ~this~, exile a blue card from your hand, and pay 5 life: Counter target spell.
2/1

Funny thing: that barely impacts Standard.

Kind of a far cry from making Ley Druid cost one less, Duck.

I like that this is the proposed card. A 2/1 with flash that is also an extra control piece. Do you not think Vintage would be able to deal with this?

[AmbivalentDuck]

A Force of Will that can't itself be countered attached to a Hurkyl's Recall that dodges Thorn? Pretty confident that that pushes Workshops down a tier and kicks aggro-control up a notch.

More than half of the degeneracy of Force of Will is that you can tap out for a huge threat, but still defend it. If this card were printed, Force of Will and Pact of Negation lose most of their offensive value. In that case, things start looking far more like Legacy where combo decks run Cabal Therapy, not Force of Will.

[vaughnbros]

A Force of Will that can't itself be countered attached to a Hurkyl's Recall that dodges Thorn? Pretty confident that that pushes Workshops down a tier and kicks aggro-control up a notch.

More than half of the degeneracy of Force of Will is that you can tap out for a huge threat, but still defend it. If this card were printed, Force of Will and Pact of Negation lose most of their offensive value. In that case, things start looking far more like Legacy where combo decks run Cabal Therapy, not Force of Will.

I will guarantee that this card will never be printed.  They won't print a counterspell on par with force of will (even if it costs more life to use) and they definitely won't put it on a 2/1 flash with hurkyls attached.  Theory crafting completely unrealistic cards does not provide any substance to an argument or discussion.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's not unrealistic. It only impacts two formats, and Commander wouldn't be hurt by a Sharuum hoser.

In Legacy, it's like a worse Force of Will that can fog a Goyf for a turn instead. They wouldn't run it. In standard and modern, 5 life is a big deal tacked onto card disadvantage is insurmountable. See: City of Brass vs Tarnished Citadel.

This could easily be printed in the yearly commander product and it would turn Vintage upside down without affecting Commander or Legacy.

[Prospero]

This is a thread about a Theros set review, not a thread for the card creation forum.  If anyone would like to discuss something in the card creation forum, please feel free.  If any further comments are made about card creation topics in a Theros set review, warnings will be issued.

[wiley]

I dont see this as a bad thing.  Considering all of those cards you mentioned aren't even on the radar of the eternal formats maybe they need power creeping.

I'm with you on this.  I like that wizard's seems to have recognized that certain cards are just straight up underpowered, but still good ideas, and now are trying to push the limits a little at a time to see what the tipping point is.

Doing something like attaching hurkyl's recall to a creature might be something they do in the future, and it would definitely see play (especially if it is a human wizard).  But I am pretty sure they know the power level of free countermagic and won't touch it again in the future.