AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2013, 01:51:03 pm » |
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The argument against it is that 3 mana needs to seriously advance your game plan or impede your opponents'. Compare this to Vendillion Clique/Knight of the Reliquary/Edric/Tinker.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2013, 01:53:04 pm » |
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Er, yes. Welcome to the opening post  Well there are people in this thread basically saying the card is garbage. I mean if this is bad goyf should probably be in some dollar rare bins again. |
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gkraigher
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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2013, 02:26:46 pm » |
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2013, 02:30:01 pm » |
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The argument against it is that 3 mana needs to seriously advance your game plan or impede your opponents'. Compare this to Vendillion Clique/Knight of the Reliquary/Edric/Tinker.
Clique get their best card. Also it has flash, so it really does not compare as a 3 drop. The next three do the following after passing: - blow up any land (and will continue to do so unless addressed) - draw many cards (and will continue to do so unless addressed) - win the game. compared to this, which either blocks well or dings for 3 damage. personally I would rather have a threat that needs to be addressed immediately than a roadblock/slow wincon that cannot be addressed easily. I'm not saying its garbage, I'm saying this statement -
It single handedely destroys MUD. And warps the entire vintage format into Blue or Dredge.
is a gross overreaction. |
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:32:54 pm by Blue Lotus »
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Samoht
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« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2013, 02:50:15 pm » |
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How does this beat Smokestack again? Oh right it doesn't. And what deck plays that? Right, Mud. Whoopsie? All I can see this doing is at best making Edict/Balance/Far//Away more relevant in some blue decks. There are just better things to be doing than this in the format.
Edit: Also, I'm calling a devotion build garbage, not the card itself. I'll concede I have a lower opinion of it than the OP but it's certainly not the worst card ever released. I just think it's insanely hyperbolic to call it a format warping card.
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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gkraigher
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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2013, 02:59:32 pm » |
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Here's why it is still good against smokestacks:
this card hits on turn 2-4
smokestacks is not played until turns 2-4, goes into effect a turn later, and in the meantime doesn't allow the caster to continue with board presence.
If you drop this card the turn after smokestacks resolves and use it to block their attackers, the mud player will be forced to sac his creatures and smokestacks just as much as you have to. Its not like, hey, I play smokestacks targeting your broken blue pro-everything creature. The dude stays in play and doesn't allow the attrition to hurt.
So no, smokestacks is not an answer.
Next up is steal hellkite, which is an answer. But I have been saying the card is a blue moat against shops. Not a humility, a blue moat, because that is exactly what the card is.
Another answer to this card is phyrexian metamorph, but that seems very slow and would allow the blue mage to capitalize on his/her ability to draw better.
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Samoht
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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2013, 03:03:46 pm » |
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Here's why it is still good against smokestacks:
this card hits on turn 2-4
smokestacks is not played until turns 2-4, goes into effect a turn later, and in the meantime doesn't allow the caster to continue with board presence.
If you drop this card the turn after smokestacks resolves and use it to block their attackers, the mud player will be forced to sac his creatures and smokestacks just as much as you have to. Its not like, hey, I play smokestacks targeting your broken blue pro-everything creature. The dude stays in play and doesn't allow the attrition to hurt.
So no, smokestacks is not an answer.
Next up is steal hellkite, which is an answer. But I have been saying the card is a blue moat against shops. Not a humility, a blue moat, because that is exactly what the card is.
Clearly you've exposed that you are a troll here. There is no way you get to just play 3 drops on pace against a Mud Stax list. Cards like Tangle Wire and Spheres prevent your curve from playing out. They obviously jump the curve better than you with access to Mishra's Workshop x4 and Ancient Tomb x4, so they are likely beating you to the punch. 3 power isn't even a fast clock so you can't race them by holding onto your terrible 3 mana 3/1 Wall. |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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zeus-online
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2013, 03:08:39 pm » |
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 04:14:39 pm by zeus-online »
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2013, 03:35:14 pm » |
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Do you guys remember the golden lotus forum?
If the card is fake, it's fake. The discussion people are joining you on (and accusing you of trolling for!) concerns whether the card, as spoiled, is THE END OF THE WORLD or not. |
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DubDub
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« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2013, 03:41:22 pm » |
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Might be good enough for legacy, only problem: 3 power just dosnt kill a batterskull and/or a tarmogoyf.
No, doesn't kill them, but blocks them indefinitely (and the Batterskull doesn't even gain life because the damage is prevented), and it isn't legendary, so one can be a wall while the other gets them to 0. |
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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Samoht
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« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2013, 03:48:29 pm » |
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Might be good enough for legacy, only problem: 3 power just dosnt kill a batterskull and/or a tarmogoyf.
No, doesn't kill them, but blocks them indefinitely (and the Batterskull doesn't even gain life because the damage is prevented), and it isn't legendary, so one can be a wall while the other gets them to 0. Because we can't do better for 2UUUU in Vintage. |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2013, 03:54:32 pm » |
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Lets make this simple if you are looking for a pure beater (blocker) in mono blue this is now clearly the best option. If you are looking for something else this is not the answer...
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zeus-online
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« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2013, 04:05:54 pm » |
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 04:14:32 pm by zeus-online »
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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DubDub
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« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2013, 04:26:30 pm » |
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Might be good enough for legacy, only problem: 3 power just dosnt kill a batterskull and/or a tarmogoyf.
No, doesn't kill them, but blocks them indefinitely (and the Batterskull doesn't even gain life because the damage is prevented), and it isn't legendary, so one can be a wall while the other gets them to 0. Because we can't do better for 2UUUU in Vintage. I was responding to a comment "in Legacy". Welcome to MTG, there are several different formats. In Vintage you can play almost any card ever printed, except for some cards banned from tournament play for logistical/dexterity issues, but some cards are restricted to one copy in a deck. In Legacy you can play a similar pool of cards, but instead of restricting overpowered cards Legacy has a banned list......................... ...... |
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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Samoht
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« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2013, 04:43:54 pm » |
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Might be good enough for legacy, only problem: 3 power just dosnt kill a batterskull and/or a tarmogoyf.
No, doesn't kill them, but blocks them indefinitely (and the Batterskull doesn't even gain life because the damage is prevented), and it isn't legendary, so one can be a wall while the other gets them to 0. Because we can't do better for 2UUUU in Vintage. I was responding to a comment "in Legacy". Welcome to MTG, there are several different formats. In Vintage you can play almost any card ever printed, except for some cards banned from tournament play for logistical/dexterity issues, but some cards are restricted to one copy in a deck. In Legacy you can play a similar pool of cards, but instead of restricting overpowered cards Legacy has a banned list......................... ...... Ok, so we can't do better for 2 cards and 2UUUU in Legacy? |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2013, 04:52:27 pm » |
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That's not fair, Samhot. Cards get played in Eternal because they fill niches. There is really nothing else like Nemesis in print at the moment. The closest relatives are probably Thrun, Invisible Stalker, and Progenitus, which each have pretty big differences from what this is doing.
If I have a choice between playing a spell that costs 2UUUU that wins the game under certain conditions and two 1UU cards that probably do not win on their own, but are useful as answers or win conditions in a wide variety of matchups, the choice is not as obvious as you are setting forth.
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zeus-online
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« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2013, 05:02:43 pm » |
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 04:14:26 pm by zeus-online »
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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Samoht
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« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2013, 05:30:55 pm » |
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That's not fair, Samhot. Cards get played in Eternal because they fill niches. There is really nothing else like Nemesis in print at the moment. The closest relatives are probably Thrun, Invisible Stalker, and Progenitus, which each have pretty big differences from what this is doing.
If I have a choice between playing a spell that costs 2UUUU that wins the game under certain conditions and two 1UU cards that probably do not win on their own, but are useful as answers or win conditions in a wide variety of matchups, the choice is not as obvious as you are setting forth.
We can do better by breaking up those costs into two cards though. Like Jace + Time Walk. In Legacy we have Intuition and Show and Tell. What match ups does this affect in a positive way for established decks? At best it makes Legacy Merfolk less of a dog to Goblins/Zoo style decks. In Vintage, it doesn't really address any needs for a deck nor does it create an archetype unto itself. |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2013, 09:22:54 pm » |
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I like this card a lot if it is real, but it scares the hell out of me cause the ability is so rules question-y.
Maybe mono blue merfolk becomes a thing? This guy is all but unkillable, more so that I think any other card in the game. What removal can touch this guy that has any chance of seeing play? Shrivel will not work if they have a single lord in play (and merfolk should), pyroclasm is damage so he will be immune, probably no other sweepers worth playing in this format. Edicts wont work if you have a lord in play either. Counters won't work cause you damn well sure will be playing caverns and even your own counter magic.
That deck will make you play fair and then just put out better cards (this guy.) Dredge will get hated on and merfolk runs as many free counters against shops as it probably can, so it does not matter that this guy comes down turn 3+, hes going to win the game when he does it right.
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d8dk32
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« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2013, 09:39:29 pm » |
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I like this card a lot if it is real, but it scares the hell out of me cause the ability is so rules question-y.
Maybe mono blue merfolk becomes a thing? This guy is all but unkillable, more so that I think any other card in the game. What removal can touch this guy that has any chance of seeing play? Shrivel will not work if they have a single lord in play (and merfolk should), pyroclasm is damage so he will be immune, probably no other sweepers worth playing in this format. Edicts wont work if you have a lord in play either. Counters won't work cause you damn well sure will be playing caverns and even your own counter magic.
That deck will make you play fair and then just put out better cards (this guy.) Dredge will get hated on and merfolk runs as many free counters against shops as it probably can, so it does not matter that this guy comes down turn 3+, hes going to win the game when he does it right.
Black Sun's zenith is the only other sweeper I can think of that would deal with this guy. And it's marginally playable at best I think. |
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d8dk32
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« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2013, 09:51:46 pm » |
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I like this card a lot if it is real, but it scares the hell out of me cause the ability is so rules question-y.
Maybe mono blue merfolk becomes a thing? This guy is all but unkillable, more so that I think any other card in the game. What removal can touch this guy that has any chance of seeing play? Shrivel will not work if they have a single lord in play (and merfolk should), pyroclasm is damage so he will be immune, probably no other sweepers worth playing in this format. Edicts wont work if you have a lord in play either. Counters won't work cause you damn well sure will be playing caverns and even your own counter magic.
That deck will make you play fair and then just put out better cards (this guy.) Dredge will get hated on and merfolk runs as many free counters against shops as it probably can, so it does not matter that this guy comes down turn 3+, hes going to win the game when he does it right.
Black Sun's zenith is the only other sweeper I can think of that would deal with this guy. And it's marginally playable at best I think.
For the record, I don't think this card will be a big deal. But I expect to lose to it at some point.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2013, 10:30:45 pm » |
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I like this card a lot if it is real, but it scares the hell out of me cause the ability is so rules question-y.
Maybe mono blue merfolk becomes a thing? This guy is all but unkillable, more so that I think any other card in the game. What removal can touch this guy that has any chance of seeing play? Shrivel will not work if they have a single lord in play (and merfolk should), pyroclasm is damage so he will be immune, probably no other sweepers worth playing in this format. Edicts wont work if you have a lord in play either. Counters won't work cause you damn well sure will be playing caverns and even your own counter magic.
That deck will make you play fair and then just put out better cards (this guy.) Dredge will get hated on and merfolk runs as many free counters against shops as it probably can, so it does not matter that this guy comes down turn 3+, hes going to win the game when he does it right.
Black Sun's zenith is the only other sweeper I can think of that would deal with this guy. And it's marginally playable at best I think. BSZ may be good for it, but honestly, it probably wont be better than winning faster than this which may still be the key to beating this. It also probably has to be a BSZ for at least x=2 cause they probably will have a lord out, and 4 mana answers to a single card is a lot to ask most decks to run. |
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Charlie
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« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2013, 01:21:16 am » |
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I didn't see people playing Energy Flux for a long time, I doubt this card would be played against Workshop.
This dude kills Jace, but Clique (w/flash) probably does too, with better utility.
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potato
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« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2013, 09:30:41 am » |
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I like this card a lot if it is real, but it scares the hell out of me cause the ability is so rules question-y.
Maybe mono blue merfolk becomes a thing? This guy is all but unkillable, more so that I think any other card in the game. What removal can touch this guy that has any chance of seeing play? Shrivel will not work if they have a single lord in play (and merfolk should), pyroclasm is damage so he will be immune, probably no other sweepers worth playing in this format. Edicts wont work if you have a lord in play either. Counters won't work cause you damn well sure will be playing caverns and even your own counter magic.
That deck will make you play fair and then just put out better cards (this guy.) Dredge will get hated on and merfolk runs as many free counters against shops as it probably can, so it does not matter that this guy comes down turn 3+, hes going to win the game when he does it right.
I mean, Balance would kill it, for starters. |
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2013, 09:41:48 am » |
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Infest, massacre, liliana, edict, engineered plague, engineered explosives, pernicious deed, ratchet bomb/powder keg, wrath variants, drop of honey/ planeshifted version
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2013, 09:42:31 am » |
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Aaaand they today spoiled Order of Succession, which is essentially a sorcery Control Magic that does not target. Welp, didn't take long to see hate for this dork!
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DubDub
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« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2013, 09:49:29 am » |
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It's Modern that you should be worried about.
Note: this guy is not Modern legal, unless they decide to reprint him in a Modern legal set like they eventually did with Scavenging Ooze. Also, Marsh Casualties kills this and is one sided, and it even kills Teeg+2 toughness dudes with the kicker (which Teeg doesn't stop). |
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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xouman
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« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2013, 10:34:45 am » |
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Aaaand they today spoiled Order of Succession, which is essentially a sorcery Control Magic that does not target. Welp, didn't take long to see hate for this dork!
Not really. You give a critter for Nemesis, and your opponent switch back creatures. Only useful in multiplayer matches afaik. |
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Nefarias
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« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2013, 11:07:16 am » |
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Aaaand they today spoiled Order of Succession, which is essentially a sorcery Control Magic that does not target. Welp, didn't take long to see hate for this dork!
Not really. You give a critter for Nemesis, and your opponent switch back creatures. Only useful in multiplayer matches afaik. FWIW creatures are chosen as this is resolving, and they all switch simultaneously. So you can't just shuffle the same two creatures back and forth.
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