Slight Changes to Card Frame

[TVand]

Full article here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/281

In brief, starting in M15 the card frame will change slightly.
- There will be a new font, similar to the old one but non-proprietary
- Rares and mythic rares will feature a small holofoil stamp
- A card's rarity, set and language are now featured along with collector's number
- The colored border is getting a little smaller to make room for these changes
- Some cards in M15 will credit their designers

Examples:




I'm sure most of us remember the last time the frame changed, and these alterations really are minor by comparison.  Any thoughts?  I'm not sure how I feel about the holofoil stamp on rares/mythics aesthetically, but making cards harder to counterfeit is a plus.

[The Atog Lord]

I hate foiling entirely, and have avoided Guru lands for that reason. I am very, very unhappy at the idea of Foils and Mythics having foiling on them.

[nedleeds]

If I wanted foil cards I'd play Pokemon, Yu-Ghi-Ohs, or collect Upper Deck hockey cards. This is a disgusting aesthetic that pees in the face of the games history and original appeal and design. Every change has made the cards look worse and worse, and at the same time more and more homogeneous. Remember when an artifact was actually brown and a land wasn't 5 different colors?

[DubDub]

I'm sure I'll get used to the new look eventually, even if it seems like the wrong design direction to me.  They've monkeyed with the frame every other block anyway, so who cares?

[brianpk80]

The text at the bottom looks cluttered, messy, and cheap.  I definitely don't want the cards having the "designer's" name on them since they're not supposed to be canvases for petty narcissism.  We don't need to be reminded of some idiot trying to "make a name" for themselves every time we play.  That said, it's not a huge deal, especially since they're on a kick of printing unplayable cards for the foreseeable future.  Low impact on Vintage.   

[Samoht]

It's to fight counterfeit cards, which are pretty high in frequency.

[The Atog Lord]

(I also posted this on Facebook)

I am very impressed at how awful the new card frame is. The "holofoil stamp" is hideous. My distain for foils is well-known, as I believe they facilitate cheating and are in general garish. I have no interest in wearing ostentatious jewelry, nor any interest in their cardboard equivalent. Now, however, we will be condemned to play with foils in all of our decks. The fact that all of the rares will be cursed with this hideous mark is very depressing. The fact that the rectangle of the text box is broken by this disfiguring blemish makes matters all the worse. I can only hope that M15 is a disaster and Wizards fixes this mistake.

[A.-1.]

This is great! I now have an entire set I can use as cards to proxy on. That's about all they'll be good for.

[vaughnbros]

I'm all for making the cards harder to copy, but these just look terrible.  The black strip on the bottom looks so out of place with the rest of the card as does the random holigraphic spot.  There has to be a more visually appealing way to achieve their goal.

[fsecco]

I don't care about the foil stamp. It's harmless and if it helps prevent counterfeits and attracts new players, I'm pretty OK with it.

Now, the black border is terrible. I mean, the idea is great, and the fact that it's readable by machines is awesome, but I'm sure there would be a prettier way to do this. I think they should have just made the lower border larger, maybe squared, without the terrible "fade out curve" it's now. Or maybe this steep curve it is now should have been the same curve as the card's outer border, following the same pattern.

Which brings me to a question I really don't know: Wizards doesn't print white bordered cards anymore, right?

The other thing I'm afraid of is the fact that the border is thinner... how will this play together with older cards? No idea. Guess I'll only be able to check with a card in hands.

[Nefarias]

FWIW, the designer credit thing is supposedly just a thing for M15. And Aaron said that there would be cool uses for it, "I Promise!" I think it's kind of stupid myself, but it's only for one set so NBD, and maybe they actually will deliver on that promise (Invitiational reprints? Crucible/Forgotten Ancient reprint?)

I actually don't mind the sloping border or the holo stamp. The worst thing for me is the font on the collectors information. Is it just me or does it look sort of Sci-Fi?

[Norm4eva]

I do not think this is that big a deal.

As with the last card frame, it doesn't change the game.

The weird little foil bit at the bottom is kinda strange.

The mothership had an article about the changes and what I got out of it was that the bottom of the card was like e-reader friendly? some junk like that. Which, honestly, seems kinda like a great way for all kinds of people to track their (m15 and upwards, heh) cards, maybe interact with apps in meaningful ways and whatnot. "welcome to mtgo for android, please scan your collection to have it instantly added to our records online" Probably nothing that cool, but w/e

Anyway, this is not a BFD at all

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think this new design is incredible.  It's not quite as good as Futuresight was, but I'll live.  I LOVE the foil dot on the rares.  To me, it's not quite enough foil though.  Foil rocks.  I actually have all foil cards and sprinkle glitter on the cards that don't come in foil (like those hideous Mishra's Workshops with their black border and dull look).  I only wish they had white borders instead of black.  Oh well, I guess that's what erasers are for!

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

The Asymmetry of the new frame is hideous. to compensate for that, they chose to include this foil mark prominently in the middle of the card, though. Which is horrible as well. It would have been nice if it was the set symbol (or something near there) instead.

I think the Art community on TMD could try to get together to find out how we would like the cards (art, frame, etc.) to look like from a "aesthetics" / collector standpoint and write these concerns to wizards. Not that much is going to happen, but I still think it's important that they hear what we think.

[BC]

I'm fine with these changes, I guess.  The foil stamp is fine with me; it reminds me of my old baseball card collection.  The new weird frame is certainly weird, but it is a small change from the previous frame.  I can get used to it.

To be honest, when I heard "new card frame for M15" I was really hoping that they were jumping to the Future Sight frame.  That would have been truly notable and awesome. 

In any case, I understand that the natural knee-jerk reaction to any change in something you love (no matter how small) is to vent your anger and frustration, so vent away...

[fsecco]

To be honest, when I heard "new card frame for M15" I was really hoping that they were jumping to the Future Sight frame.  That would have been truly notable and awesome. 

Am I alone in thinking Future Sight card frames are horrible?

[Samoht]

To be honest, when I heard "new card frame for M15" I was really hoping that they were jumping to the Future Sight frame.  That would have been truly notable and awesome. 

Am I alone in thinking Future Sight card frames are horrible?

No, but several think they were outstanding. I'm in the outstanding group.

[DubDub]

MTGTheSource, prompted in part by the anti-countefeiting holo-foil measure in the new M15 has been discussing some high quality fakes from China of Legacy (and likely Vintage/Modern/Commander/expensive too) cards.  They're wondering whether a) WotC will be forced to drop the Reserve List to recoup some of the profits sitting out there in reprinting duals/goyfs/jaces/etc. or b) whether an influx of fakes, if prices consequently fall, will drive SCG out of the Legacy-Opens-every-weekend business.  Could be an important year for Magic, 2014.

[quicksilvervii]

MTGTheSource, prompted in part by the anti-countefeiting holo-foil measure in the new M15 has been discussing some high quality fakes from China of Legacy (and likely Vintage/Modern/Commander/expensive too) cards.  They're wondering whether a) WotC will be forced to drop the Reserve List to recoup some of the profits sitting out there in reprinting duals/goyfs/jaces/etc. or b) whether an influx of fakes, if prices consequently fall, will drive SCG out of the Legacy-Opens-every-weekend business.  Could be an important year for Magic, 2014.

Or they could use the new frame when reprinting those cards not on the reserve list (like Goyf and Jace above - unlikely in the case of the latter as it is banned in Modern), and nothing changes with the old cards still on that list (which I am thinking is more likely).

I'm thinking "doubtful" at best in regards to A, and I don't see it as a giant concern yet for B.

[Onslaught]

I know for a fact that at least two people were using counterfeit cards at Vintage Champs. Would a well trained eye be able to spot them with hands on time? Yes. But if the current spread of really damn good Chinese fakes (they even pass the rip test) were to flood the market, is the onus now on judges to pull out cards that may be double or triple sleeved? It's not reasonable to do with time constraints, and that doesn't even address the fact that a player may have genuinely not known it was fake (or using that claim as plausible deniability). If fakes reach enough saturation, will people be on the verge of losing and accuse opponents of using fake cards in hopes of getting a free win? Also a huge time sink.

WotC somewhat incentivized creation of fake cards with adherence to the reserve list. Counterfeits as a whole undoubtedly diminish the game - ultimately Magic means nothing at the extreme end where fake cards lead to the business being less viable, local stores being hurt, and so on. The new anti-counterfeit hologram somewhat addresses this (though ironically drew huge attention to the fact that Wizards acknowledged fakes are getting very realistic  and made people start seeking them out). But for eternal cards that won't be reprinted, it will be interesting to see what the official response is...

[MaximumCDawg]

We know what the "official" response is: play Modern.

[DubDub]

We know what the "official" response is: play Modern.

I think many people will when the Chinese give us $7 Goyfs, Bobs, and Lilianas...

[MaximumCDawg]

Better that than 7$ moxen...

[tito del monte]

I know for a fact that at least two people were using counterfeit cards at Vintage Champs.

This really saddens me, though I can of course understand the motivation given the price of cards. Still - it's essentially a case of cheating that you know about and presumably chose not to alert the judges to. Is this really the way Magic/Vintage is going? Do people generally just turn a blind eye to cheating when it's their friends doing it?

Maybe I'm naive, but it's not exactly what I signed up for.

Onslaught, if it is something you became aware of after the fact, then of course you couldn't exactly mention it to the judging staff. Thanks at least for raising the issue so candidly here - not singling you out, rather wondering how widespread this practice is at sanctioned events (including even SCG Legacy events).  

[DubDub]

I know for a fact that at least two people were using counterfeit cards at Vintage Champs.

This really saddens me, though I can of course understand the motivation given the price of cards. Still - it's essentially a case of cheating that you know about and presumably chose not to alert the judges to. Is this really the way Magic/Vintage is going? Do people generally just turn a blind eye to cheating when it's their friends doing it?

Don't read this as an endorsement of using counterfeits, because I'm torn on the matter, but Tito, what exactly is the damage done to other players when some players in a tournament are using fake cards?

Obviously if the fake cards are also marked cards then that's cheating.  Starting with a Black Lotus every game because it's slightly thinner/thicker is one thing.  But if they're truly indistinguishable from the real thing then I'm having a hard time seeing damages done to players in the tournament.

I mean, do you want to claim that it's damaging to other players that they expected a metagame based on a high financial barrier to entry, and some players skirted that barrier to entry, throwing off the 'expected' metagame?  I think that's a reasonable claim to make given the way Magic is, but not necessarily the way Magic 'should be.'  If we want to be a game more like Chess, then we have to move to a level playing field.  You don't hear from Chess grandmasters "Well, I expected some of my opponents in this tournament to only have one bishop and one rook, it's pretty unfair that everybody has the same pieces I have."

No doubt that there's a financial damage to WotC (well, they're not in the business of selling Black Loti anymore, but I'd concede that WotC is damaged by counterfeits in general), and I'm assuming that counterfeits are defined as cheating in the infraction guide or whatever, but in terms of lessening the quality of play, or damaging other players?  Instead I'd verge on saying that the quality of play was enhanced by having more players with more access to all the pieces.

[tito del monte]

@dubdub: certainly it's a problem for the way the game is: I mean if you attend an event where the rules are as they are, is it not better for the game's integrity to respect them? You can't just proxy up a chase mythic you're missing at a PTQ, because it would be nice if everyone had optimised decks.

As to what the game should be: everyone has different visions for that- and if you want to compare it to a classic game such as chess, then you would have to do away with rarities altogether. I would love that aspect of the game to tuned down, with reprint s of reserved list staples for example but I unfortunately don't decide how the game "should" be & therefore I'm left having to respect how the game is. Thus, if the rules say that I need to play with real cards at Vintage Champs that's what I do.

Similarly, given the very negative effect that proxies have had on players' commitment to the format, I think we should be pretty worried about any impending normalisation, across formats, of fake cards. While they're exactly the same as proxies, I would argue their effect will be even more pernicious as it completely undermines wotc's business model. And though we might all have our vision of what Magic "should" be, it is theirs that holds sway. That means selling enough cards to keep making new ones- something we all have an interest in.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think the "torn" feeling comes from thinking that counterfeit cards and proxies are the same thing.  They're very, very different creatures.

A proxy does not try to pass itself off as a real card.  They range the gambit from sharpies on a basic land all the way to printing on a blanked card or a transparency.  (I actually love the firm feel of a transparency proxy, but it's too much of a hassle to make em).  Proxies fill an important niche, allowing people to play Vintage without spending 10 grand on the mana base.  No one suspects they are real and it is basically a fools' errand to try and pass them off as the real deal.  What is more, proxies are typically a "craft" item.  One dude sits down and makes himself some proxies with what he has on hand.  Some, like the full-art versions of Vintage staples I've seen, are actually quite nice works of art on their own.

A counterfeit card is different.  The goal with a these cards is to make something indistinguishable from a real card, something that passes most or all of the tests people use to determine legitimacy of a card.  Theoretically, there's nothing stopping someone from eventually reverse-engineering a card set -- say, Legends -- and then printing cards which truly are the same as the original.  The only difference is that they were not endorsed by Wizards.  What is more, to do it right, you need commercial printing technology to replicate what Carti Mundi did.  These cards might, for all intents and purposes, BE Magic cards except for the fact that Wizards did not endorse the print run.

True counterfeits are very, very dangerous for the game because they threaten to destabilize the secondary market.  If you get a company, say a Chinese one, that is able to print as much Unlimited or Legends as they want (remember, we're assuming they crack the code and just print functionally identical cards) then there will be more supply.  It would be easy for a company who set their mind to it to double or triple the number of sought-after cards from these sets in circulation.  Demand and supply would re-balance to the new reality of lots of cards.  And, worse than that, you will have panic on the secondary market once people become aware of the counterfeits.  This would probably drive prices down further.

Lower price of entry doesn't sound like such a bad thing from the player's perspective, but remember that this would cause problems for card sellers and stores, who sponsor tournaments because they make money on this game, and for Wizards, which would have to do something to protect their intellectual property.  Who can predict exactly how they would react to a sudden multiplication of old cards in circulation?  I can imagine a scenario where, whenever a card cracks 50 bucks, the counterfeits flow out to cash in and satisfy demand.  This sort of thing would ruin magic speculators who were unprepared for it.

I like to think that this would start putting "caps" on how expensive a card could be.  I feel like we'd return to the turn-of-the-millennium state in Magic, in terms of card prices and tournament support.  Many of you guys who played around that time might be happy with it, but remember that since then Magic has EXPLODED in terms of money, player base, tournament attendance, and popularity.  We are reaping the benefits of that in continued, well-developed sets with interesting cards, the SCG Open series, etc.  I, for one, am not in favor of dialing back the clock to how it used to be.

So, bottom line: Hand-crafted proxies are good because Vintage cards are too expensive.  Counterfeits are bad because they threaten commercial mass-production that pushes the game back 15 years.

 

[DubDub]

The MTGTheSource has taken a turn for the my-inbox-indicates-China-isn't-ready.  But since I think this is still a useful discussion:

@dubdub: certainly it's a problem for the way the game is: I mean if you attend an event where the rules are as they are, is it not better for the game's integrity to respect them? You can't just proxy up a chase mythic you're missing at a PTQ, because it would be nice if everyone had optimised decks.

Well, I think the question isn't settled on whether that's a reasonable rule for players to have to follow (no counterfeits).  It sounds reasonable because OF COURSE counterfeits are bad and Wizards has a right to sell their product (as in, a COPYRIGHT).  But the community's acceptance of this reasonable sounding rule effectively enables Wizards to kill Vintage and starve Legacy.  They just choose not to exercise their right to reprint expensive cards.

As to what the game should be: everyone has different visions for that- and if you want to compare it to a classic game such as chess, then you would have to do away with rarities altogether. I would love that aspect of the game to tuned down, with reprint s of reserved list staples for example but I unfortunately don't decide how the game "should" be & therefore I'm left having to respect how the game is. Thus, if the rules say that I need to play with real cards at Vintage Champs that's what I do.

I think it's extreme to say that rarity should be done away with entirely.  Booster packs would continue to need rarity to enable draft/sealed etc.  And I'm not advocating for a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, given away for free.  But Wizards could have a standing policy to 'cap' the cost of staples by reprinting them in sufficient quantity to drop the price.  I mean, they created Modern with the express purpose to offer a less costly alternative to Legacy where no cards were on the reserve list and they could keep it affordable with reprints as necessary.  And then they upped Tarmogoyf to mythic, effectively encouraging his price to increase unchecked (because there was no longer the uncertainty that he would be reprinted and hence the 'real' value could be achieved).

Similarly, given the very negative effect that proxies have had on players' commitment to the format, I think we should be pretty worried about any impending normalisation, across formats, of fake cards. While they're exactly the same as proxies, I would argue their effect will be even more pernicious as it completely undermines wotc's business model. And though we might all have our vision of what Magic "should" be, it is theirs that holds sway. That means selling enough cards to keep making new ones- something we all have an interest in.

I disagree that fakes and proxies are identical.  It's more accurate, in my opinion, to say that fakes and REAL cards are identical.  Indeed, that is the goal of the counterfeit producers.  Proxies allowed people to play unsanctioned, whereas fakes allow people to play sanctioned, which is a huge difference.  It's the use of fakes in Eternal Weekend that you're dismayed by, which clearly rules out proxies as a identical substitute.

Regarding the pernicious effect of fakes undermining WotC's business model: they choose that path.  And they can follow that path, though it involves an uglier card face with anti-counterfeiting measures, and injunctions/litigation to stop the counterfeit production, and neo-Modern's creation in a few years if/when Modern is overrun.  They chose it because they feel it offers them more money to erect a high barrier to entry to the formats people can play forever with only few updates.  They're trying to channel demand into the direction it best serves them, instead of satisfying where it is by increasing supply of the cards people actually want.  I mean, why doesn't WotC want to sell four Tarmogoyfs to everybody who plays Magic?
a) because it was a mistake -> then why don't they just ban it?
b) because it's objectively better for formats to be limited by the cost people can afford -> this concretely admits that Magic is pay-to-win, which they wouldn't do.
c) because they want to sell future 1G creatures that aren't as good in the future -> then don't be surprised when China takes calls and answers "yeah, we can do that for you."

[tito del monte]

@dubdub - I do actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, particularly that if there is demand for counterfeits, it is in many ways a rod that Wizards have made for their own back. But I still don't think it's a good thing to be condoning the use of fake cards at Vintage Champs. I'm pretty sure the question is settled - whether we might want it to be or not: playing sanctioned Magic, astthis moment in time, requires the use of authentic Magic cards.

I think it is particularly dangerous for everyone to be cool with the use of fakes at Vintage Champs - the one time that Wizards gives any attention, coverage or support to the format. I mean, do you think that support will continue if people start taking home the painting with a deck containing fake cards?

By all means, run an unsanctioned tournament with a sign at the door that says, "proxies and/or fakes allowed" - but as long as the rules for sanctioned Magic are what they are, turning up with fakes in a deck is at best bad faith, at worst cheating.

Edit: fixed formatting.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

whether we might want it to be or not: playing sanctioned Magic, astthis moment in time, requires the use of authentic Magic cards.

Does it really? There are some good fakes out there. People have definitely played sanctioned vintage with fakes and had no idea (and some people even knowing full well), and the experience was probably identical for all parties involved to sanctioned events where this was not the case. We live in an age of technological reproduction, its the same old question of weather the aura/spirit (or whatever term they're using now) is an actual thing or an insignificant construct. Regardless, functionally you definitely can play sanctioned vintage with non-authentic cards. Its happened before, it'll happen again. You could make an argument for scale or rate of introduction being an issue though. I probably wouldn't disagree with either of those things, but in the right numbers it may even be beneficial for the format if the reserve list is indeed the worst thing to happen to vintage.

I mean, do you think that support will continue if people start taking home the painting with a deck containing fake cards?

Start? Who's to say this hasn't happened already?