[Free Podcast] SMIP: Vintage Tactics & 2013 Moxies

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-32-vintage-tactics/

And on MTGCast: http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/so-many-insane-plays-32-vintage-tactics

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:13:36 — 47.8MB)


Timestamped Table of Contents:
0:01:00: Announcements
0:02:20: Vintage Tactics: Land Drops
0:32:45: Vintage Tactics: Mana Drain
0:52:45: Vintage Tactics: Vampiric Tutor
1:07:30: Awarding the 2013 Moxies!

Other Show Notes

- Sharpening Your Skills: Playing With and Around Mana Drain (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=7063)
- Team Serious Vintage Open Columbus 01-18-2014

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

***

We think people will really enjoy this podcast.  We kept it shorter, so it won't take as much time, but we hope you find it thought provoking and insightful. 

[Samoht]

No mention of Abrupt Decay or Deathrite Shaman in best printings? Surely Notion Thief isn't on that level.

[Smmenen]

No mention of Abrupt Decay or Deathrite Shaman in best printings? Surely Notion Thief isn't on that level.

Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman were printed in Return to Ravnica, which was released in 2012, and therefore disqualified from our Moxies for 2013  

[marcb]

Great podcast! I just finished it. One thought that kept recurring while I listened was the tension in combo control decks with using cards like mana drain as tempo versus valuable answer to key spells from your opponent and vampiric tutor for game ending combo piece or generic proactive finisher versus flexible tutor for silver bullet answer. Resolving the tension of how to play mana drain or vamp tutor follows from understanding your assignment of role as the combo or control deck at the moment you are evaluating the utility of your mana drain or vamp. It would be interesting to hear your guys thoughts on how you assign your role when playing combo control, more combo or more control, depending upon the matchup and how this role might switch as key plays progress throughout a given game or match.

I hope the above makes sense. I'm trying to suggest that proper play of vamp and drain might be a sequela of dynamic role assignment for a combo control deck. This is contentious, but interesting as vintage blurs these archetypes more than other formats, suggesting that an understanding of dynamic role changes between combo, control, and aggro might be a relatively unique skill for vintage, underdeveloped by those less familiar with this format and might make an interesting topic for a future podcast.

Marc

[Samoht]

No mention of Abrupt Decay or Deathrite Shaman in best printings? Surely Notion Thief isn't on that level.

Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman were printed in Return to Ravnica, which was released in 2012, and therefore disqualified from our Moxies for 2013  

Fair point. Time flies. Doesn't feel like I've had a year with either card yet but the numbers never lie.

[quicksilvervii]

No mention of Abrupt Decay or Deathrite Shaman in best printings? Surely Notion Thief isn't on that level.

Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman were printed in Return to Ravnica, which was released in 2012, and therefore disqualified from our Moxies for 2013  

Fair point. Time flies. Doesn't feel like I've had a year with either card yet but the numbers never lie.

Precisely this.

I guess it is just part of the feeling that those cards are 'here to stay' and can not be ignored.  Talk about shaking up the metagame.

[brianpk80]

Nice podcast!  Sensei's Divining Top would make a great card for discussion in a future installment. 

[Smmenen]

Nice podcast!  Sensei's Divining Top would make a great card for discussion in a future installment. 

Agreed.  Thanks for the feedback.  I think this kind of podcast topic really draws people in, although it may not seem like it at first, so I hope folks enjoy it.

Listening to it, I realized we could have spent an entire podcast just on land drops. There was much more to cover. 

In retrospect, would people like us to tackle MORE tactics per episode or fewer?

We could have done an entire episode on either Drain or land drops.

One tactic we will definitely cover in another episode is Gush.  But keep the suggestions coming.

   

[DubDub]

I skimmed through the podcast to get to the Moxies, but there are a number of cards I'd suggest for tactics discussions, in no particular order:

Necropotence
Wasteland (to a lesser extent, or as part of same discussion, Strip Mine)
Duress/Thoughtseize
Gifts Ungiven (as the caster and the target)
Flusterstorm
Snapcaster Mage
Fact or Fiction (as the target)
Doomsday

Maybe you could have a standing portion of the podcast be devoted to a new tactics discussion each time?  You spent 30, 20 or 15 minutes on these topics this time around (maybe declining due to fatigue).  You could probably cap the discussion at 20 minutes each time, and don't fear ending early on this section if it's all been said!

Also, just because I love the card, you could do a sample Fact or Fiction split quickly every episode.  Just list the board state/graveyard/cards in hand/# of cards in opp's hand for both players and the five cards flipped and take responses in the comments about how 'best' to split.  Puzzles like this or involving Doomsday etc. could be really fun.

[Soly]

I would agree about sensei's divining top.  I have pulled every trick in the book with that card, and at least 25% of the time, my opponent has a dumbfounded look.

1) Untapping with Voltaic key to draw a free card.  
2) Spinning, and in response tapping to draw card.
3) Doing #2, but fetching before the spin.


My favorite however is this scenario.

My opponent resolve tinker.  I had a top, a bunch of mana open, and 2 fetchlands.    I was digging for a counterspell to protect my answer (Jace) because I could still beat Flusterstorm this way.  So I put a spin on the stack, fetched.  Looked at the 3.  Set em up.  Put a spin on the stack, and responded by tapping to draw a card.  With the spin still on the stack, I fetched again.  This allowed me to pick the best card of 6 available, and then the best of 6 available again (since I wanted 1 card in my first spin, but didnt want the others).

Won that game as I resolved Jace with Thoughtseize + Mistep backup.

[forests failed you]

I could easily do an hour on Goblin Welder. 

[Smmenen]

I skimmed through the podcast to get to the Moxies, but there are a number of cards I'd suggest for tactics discussions, in no particular order:

Doomsday

We already did a podcast on Dday (2-3 hours at that).  Unlikely to repeat in the near future.

You shouldn't skip the other sections.  Give it a minute or two to get rolling, but anyone listening should have lots of neural activity.  

You'll be surprised how much there is to consider, even for intermediate and expert players. 

No mention of Abrupt Decay or Deathrite Shaman in best printings? Surely Notion Thief isn't on that level.

Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman were printed in Return to Ravnica, which was released in 2012, and therefore disqualified from our Moxies for 2013  

Fair point. Time flies. Doesn't feel like I've had a year with either card yet but the numbers never lie.

Precisely this.

I guess it is just part of the feeling that those cards are 'here to stay' and can not be ignored.  Talk about shaking up the metagame.

The reason for mistakenly thinking they were printed this year may have to do with the fact that they saw more play this year on a monthly basis then when they were released.  Deathrite Shaman was underestimated when released (despite my backing).  

I don't recall exactly at this point, but I don't think Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman won the 2012 Moxies either.  Someone should go back and check, but I think it may have been a split between Griselbrand and something else.   2012 had much stiffer competition.  

[nedleeds]

I liked the basic Island, Scalding Tarn, Underground in the blind discussion. Many players don't understand why one is 'righter' and just always lead with the basic, or always lead with the fetch. You won't always make the 'right' decision because the opponent may be running a different archtype but at least if you've weighed the pros and cons in your head  you can feel like you made the reasonable play.

The thinning effect is actually pretty simple to quantify, you can back the hypergeometric out of your remaining cards by memorizing some simple tables. Or memorizing the tables in increments of 5 then knowing the % bump is somewhere in between 2 values. Again it won't always mean you'll draw business, but at least you made the decision based on rational thought rather than a hunch or a twitchy hand.

It reminds of the struggles to develop mana in the 4 strip mine era. There were many times when it was correct to lead on a Strip Mine in the hopes that your opponent would Strip your Strip. There were also scenarios were if you were on one land and some moxen and had the play leading with just moxes and sandbagging your singleton land (remember no paris) was appropriate, which seems utterly counter intuitive. The value of the one land when weighed against castable spells in your hand was such that you were better off not playing it. Actually it's funny now that island and mountain are played basically because strip mine is restricted.

[Smmenen]

I liked the basic Island, Scalding Tarn, Underground in the blind discussion. Many players don't understand why one is 'righter' and just always lead with the basic, or always lead with the fetch. You won't always make the 'right' decision because the opponent may be running a different archtype but at least if you've weighed the pros and cons in your head  you can feel like you made the reasonable play.

Exactly.  Bringing into focus the key tensions is the beginning of understanding what the issues are.   Too many players aren't thoughtful enough about this.

The thinning effect is actually pretty simple to quantify, you can back the hypergeometric out of your remaining cards by memorizing some simple tables. Or memorizing the tables in increments of 5 then knowing the % bump is somewhere in between 2 values. Again it won't always mean you'll draw business, but at least you made the decision based on rational thought rather than a hunch or a twitchy hand.

True, but there needs to be a cumulative effect column though.  So, what would be the cumulative effect on turns 3-8 of not breaking two fetchlands on the first few turns, for example, is a datapoint that a regular table won't illustrate.  It would only show you the effect of a particular draw at a particular moment in time. 

[MTGFan]

Another thing I would love to see discussed in a tactics section of this podcast is the "name a card" cycle of cards.

Specifically - Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, and Meddling Mage. All of these cards are highly effective foils to popular strategies but require a degree of skill when being played proactively early in the game.

Another really good discussion for this format would involve Standstill - playing with and against Standstill; i.e. when to pop it, when to slow-roll against it, how to pop it, when it actually benefits the caster of Standstill to pop it himself.

[CHA1N5]

Great feedback, all.

I do plan to add scenarios and/or tactics as staple features of every episode.

[brianpk80]

In retrospect, would people like us to tackle MORE tactics per episode or fewer?   

The same amount or fewer.  You can get a lot of interesting discussion from just a single card or concept (land drops) and there's no reason to rush trough the Vintage playables which are finite. 

[WhiteLotus]

Great feedback, all.

I do plan to add scenarios and/or tactics as staple features of every episode.

The last episode was pretty brilliant, you should do all of the important cards that involve some specific and tricky ways of being played to reach their full potential such as Necropotence, Gifts Ungiven, Sensei divining top, ...

Also some metagame perspectives would be nice, Which archetype has performed the best since last podcast for example, which deck is best positioned to beat it and stuff like that.
Maybe a little more in depth analysis of particular Archetypes and match ups you guys feel comfortable with.

An argument could also be made for more special guests.

Great podcasts guys, keep them coming  

[Smmenen]

Great feedback, all.

I do plan to add scenarios and/or tactics as staple features of every episode.

The last episode was pretty brilliant, you should do all of the important cards that involve some specific and tricky ways of being played to reach their full potential such as Necropotence, Gifts Ungiven, Sensei divining top, ...

Also some metagame perspectives would be nice, Which archetype has performed the best since last podcast for example, which deck is best positioned to beat it and stuff like that.
Maybe a little more in depth analysis of particular Archetypes and match ups you guys feel comfortable with.

An argument could also be made for more special guests.

Great podcasts guys, keep them coming  

Thank you for the good suggestions and the complements. 

This is some dense and deep analysis.  I hope people take the time to try it out. 

[Demagoguery]

I really thought it was an awesome podcast and I look forward to more of these. I do agree though that maybe including less cards and going more in depth would be beneficial, but I don't exactly dislike the way you guys did it this time around.

One thing that would also be pretty neat would be a count down and explanation of your top X little known tricks to make seemingly narrow cards more open. For example, it wasn't until somewhat recently that I found out about the Key + Top trick of tapping Top, untapping it, and then Tapping it again to net a card for 2 mana. I know it's kind of silly that I missed that interaction initially, but it really changed my opinion of what Key was in my decks as before it was mostly just something I used to untap Vault with and at times give my Tinker bots Vigilance.

[Samoht]

I really thought it was an awesome podcast and I look forward to more of these. I do agree though that maybe including less cards and going more in depth would be beneficial, but I don't exactly dislike the way you guys did it this time around.

One thing that would also be pretty neat would be a count down and explanation of your top X little known tricks to make seemingly narrow cards more open. For example, it wasn't until somewhat recently that I found out about the Key + Top trick of tapping Top, untapping it, and then Tapping it again to net a card for 2 mana. I know it's kind of silly that I missed that interaction initially, but it really changed my opinion of what Key was in my decks as before it was mostly just something I used to untap Vault with and at times give my Tinker bots Vigilance.

Your Time Vault does stuff too, people miss that all the time.