Spirit of the Labrynth

[Shax]

I was going to say, wait for Guli to make or post a Guli.dek before you come to conclusions on this card. But he has already given a fair assessment as usual. Expect this to show up frequently with Thalia or in Thalia decks. From the looks of it this will be another one of those Quasali Pridemage type creatures that just continues to rack up damage as the game goes on from it's effect.

[Smmenen]

Yay. Another 2-mana hatebear. This time it has *three* power. They're getting creative!

I mean - what a sterling example of innovative design. These guys should open up their own design consulting firm and give speeches at Apple and Google.

Actually, I agree with you, assuming you are being non-ironic.

This card is an awesome design. 

The best designs are simple designs.  Novice designers think that cards need to be cute or complex.  The complexity of the game emerges through the interactions of cards, not cards themselves.  See Alpha.  This is why Richard Garfield doesn't like planeswalkers: they are too complicated.

[Ten-Ten]

Yay. Another 2-mana hatebear. This time it has *three* power. They're getting creative!

I mean - what a sterling example of innovative design. These guys should open up their own design consulting firm and give speeches at Apple and Google.

Actually, I agree with you, assuming you are being non-ironic.

This card is an awesome design. 

The best designs are simple designs.  Novice designers think that cards need to be cute or complex.  The complexity of the game emerges through the interactions of cards, not cards themselves.  See Alpha.  This is why Richard Garfield doesn't like planeswalkers: they are too complicated.

QFT

One of my favorite cards ever printed are Serum powder, Pithing needle and Grafdiggers cage, simple design yet each have a possability of having such a profound impact in each game.
This new card will definitely be on my list of favorites.

[Demagoguery]

I'll be honest guys, I really like this card, and I've played mono-blue control and keeper more than a couple of times in Vintage now.

Yes, this is a hate card, however it's a really awesome build around me card that doesn't actually force you to sacrifice anything to build around it. So like Steve M. said, this is really a card where less is more, and while it's a simple card the complexity of it is really high.

This card just has so many cool interactions with things like Clique and Mikokoro, and there are plenty of ways to get around it with things like Fact or Fiction, but it also hates on so many powerful cards like Jace and Gush... Not only that but it's in the colour best equipped to deal with some of the cards that play around it, as it has Disenchant and Devout Witness to deal with things like Necro, but neither hate piece is bad since they both do a good job against Oath and Shops... As for Dark Confident, well are we forgetting StP and Path are things in the same colour? It's also just good in that it trades with Lodestone.

So yea, it's a hate card, it will see play in the decks that like hate bears, but it will also potentially spawn new versions of decks like UW where it's a combination of stuff mentioned above to get the edge in certain games while not being completely dead in the Dredge and Shop match ups.

This card really isn't just a White Trash hate bear only.

[tito del monte]

This is why Richard Garfield doesn't like planeswalkers: they are too complicated.

Hope this is a sign you got and are reading the book Stephen! Not sure I've seen him say this anywhere else.

On topic - although this is very much in the 'hatebear' vein, I agree in finding it simple and elegant in its design, I even love the symmetrical effect, something we don't see as much these days - it's just a strong effect with a ton of subtle uses that is well communicated with a deceptively simple card. More please!

Overall, the failing of Theros block so far for me is how they've really struggled to communicate a simple, universal world (Classical Mythology) via the card mechanics. The enchantment-creature thing is totally forced and not genuinely top-down, rather something they've been wanting to do for a while, that they've crammed into Theros as the conceit that they believe makes the theme work. But it doesn't, it's just not intuitive enough and falls short of the very wonderful Innistrad block, which nailed it in terms of using game mechanics to render popular tropes.  So far, most of the cards in Theros feel like they're being forced to jump through hoops to make the 'enchantments matter' gimmick work - rather than taking the simplest path to making the set feel mythological. It's a total car crash - quite apart from the low number of Eternal staples.

Anyway, rant over. Very much look forward to playing with this card in something fishy in Vintage, and who knows maybe something as whacky as Naya Zoo in Legacy....

 

[sylverfyre]

the biggest thing this card does in the dredge match up is have a 3 power. I've played white trash against dredge a bunch. While the rest in peace T1 or T2 is nice, what happens more often is my opponent plays a bazaar, activates it once, I waste it, and then he slow plays. Having a 3 power allows a much faster clock than another 2/2 hatebear with no effect on dredge.

2/2s don't die to Darkblast, though.

Dredge just isn't the deck I'm expecting to cringe and worry when it sees this card.

[dangerlinto]

Actually, I agree with you, assuming you are being non-ironic.

This card is an awesome design. 

The best designs are simple designs.  Novice designers think that cards need to be cute or complex.  The complexity of the game emerges through the interactions of cards, not cards themselves.  See Alpha.  This is why Richard Garfield doesn't like planeswalkers: they are too complicated.

Simplicity is definitely appreciated.  I don't think that the poster's complaint really stems from the card needing to be more complex, merely that the bluntness of the effect seems wildly under-appreciated by the designer.  

Lets be honest here - WoTC didn't make this card as a way to stick it to Brainstorm or Jacestorm and probably not to Griselbrand either.  They've shown a long-standing history of fast-designing cards as a response to other Standard cards, and this spirit has one job:  to stick it to Sphinx's Revelation.  I feel I can make that presumption, because not only have WoTC said they've done such a thing before, but in conversations I had about Grafiddger's Cage with one R&D member, this was essentially the reason given (except of course for other 'problem' cards).

I feel for the poster here, although I don't share the over-reaction to this card - it's Alexander's proverbial answer to the Gordian knot.  The problem is with cards that use the word "can't" is there is no coming back from those.  One of the golden rules of Magic essentially means there is no undo button, and here in the eternal world they stick around forever.  The more often R&D resort to using "can't" effects, the more they shut off valves for playing card.  I'm especially remiss of using "can't" on effects that enable people to play cards.  If this card said "lands can't be destroyed" - I'd be overjoyed.  Destroying lands is s method to preventing people from playing their spells.  This one is not.

I think I know what R&D is going for here - their earlier attempts at making hate cards for problem cards or decks never really stuck because they were too narrow - Teferi's Response being possibly the best example of how not to make a hate card.  But using can't effects is a really blunt method for a card that will be a problem only for a another 8 months - meanwhile everyone playing something other than Standard will have to deal with the consequences (as little as I think they are) forever.  I just think using the word "can't" on a magic card is a very slippery slope.  

The only problem I have with this particular design, really, is that the card is white.  Why?  "Can't" effects aren't nailed into the white colour pie - and white isn't really the enemy of drawing extra cards color (blue).  I really feel like this card should have been green or red, but was slapped into white because that's where we put good 2-drops now.

[davidasmatthews]

the biggest thing this card does in the dredge match up is have a 3 power. I've played white trash against dredge a bunch. While the rest in peace T1 or T2 is nice, what happens more often is my opponent plays a bazaar, activates it once, I waste it, and then he slow plays. Having a 3 power allows a much faster clock than another 2/2 hatebear with no effect on dredge.

2/2s don't die to Darkblast, though.

Dredge just isn't the deck I'm expecting to cringe and worry when it sees this card.

You're right, dredge isn't going to cringe when it sees this card. But my experience has been that the dredge player doesn't waste his Draw 1 on a dredge 3 darkblast while slow playing against white trash. They usually go for the bigger dredgers. So having the 3 power be just a slighter improvement in a match that Spirit of the Labyrinth isn't even intended or main decked to help against is important.

[Grand Inquisitor]

[Dusts off Lava Darts...]

 

Bear.dec has been steadily gaining ground with the succession of these printings.  People actually fear creatures now, which is great.    This is another interesting addition to this set.

The real question is whether there's a non-blue deck that can be a consistent player.  I know we can't talk about tiers, but basically is there a deck good enough that people will put it in their test gauntlets.  I think no.

I also think what we're likely to see, if anything, a UW or bant list played by some.  Will these be able to compete with Merfolk, RUG or BUG?  I can't see how.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The problem is that this card is best when played like a cheaper Notion Thief. You really want to Vial it in to "counter" an Ancestral/Brainstorm/Jacestorm/Gris activation/etc. Vial is too slow for Vintage, though. Mox+Cavern is simply better.

[brianpk80]

[Theros] It's a total car crash - quite apart from the low number of Eternal staples.

One of my favorite quotes here.  Bravo.

The Spirit of the Labyrinth is solid, but probably not enough to catapult any particular Fish build into the stratosphere.  It's the negative half of Notion Thief for half the price but Notion Thief's strength is its extremely high power ceiling.  Not only is it disruptive but it's a play that can singlehandedly swing the game in response to Gush, Recall, Griselbrand, Jace, Brainstorm, Sensei's, etc.  It's also a combo piece that should end the game on the spot w. other cards that are also inherently useful like Memory Jar, Wheel, and Twister. 

As a purely hate card, Spirit suffers the same drawback as other non-Thalia critters.  There are no wrong threats only wrong answers.  Blue has a diversity of fuel options, many co-existing in the same deck and potentially more if this card becomes pervasive.  Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Mystical, Vamp, Intuition, Gifts, Fact, Bob, Oath of Druids, Auriok Salvagers, Trinket Mage.  Sometimes this card could randomly win if someone kept a hand w. Ancestral and a Preordain as gas.  Other times, the Fish deck could be steamrolled by cards that render the Spirit negligible.  To its credit though, it will serve a permanent role keeping any hyper-draw combo decks in check, ie something unhealthy based on Gitaxian Probe, Manamorphose, and the like should Workshops ever be neutered.  It's comparable to Ethersworn Canonist in that regard which is a great card but not format warping.  This card is potentially a degree more useful & relevant but I wouldn't say it's the next Lodestone Golem.     

[Grand Inquisitor]

As a purely hate card, Spirit suffers the same drawback as other non-Thalia critters.  There are no wrong threats only wrong answers.  Blue has a diversity of fuel options

Brian gets at two key things I was only hinting at, (1) big blue is already well positioned to succeed around this and (2) mana denial has proven to be the most effective reactive strategy, not this.

[davidasmatthews]

Having the tools to get around Spirit of the Labyrinth is one thing. Actually putting them in the 75 is another. My guess is people are still going to play the optimal cards since White Trash is not a matchup that occurs in great numbers, thus making Spirit more effective when it does happen.

[MaximumCDawg]

I feel for the poster here, although I don't share the over-reaction to this card - it's Alexander's proverbial answer to the Gordian knot.  The problem is with cards that use the word "can't" is there is no coming back from those.  One of the golden rules of Magic essentially means there is no undo button, and here in the eternal world they stick around forever.  The more often R&D resort to using "can't" effects, the more they shut off valves for playing card.  I'm especially remiss of using "can't" on effects that enable people to play cards.  If this card said "lands can't be destroyed" - I'd be overjoyed.  Destroying lands is s method to preventing people from playing their spells.  This one is not.

If you're implying that printing cards that flat out prohibit something - "You cannot draw cards" - are bad for the game, I'm not sure I agree.  Sure, if they put it in a hexproof 1/6 then you might have a point.  But they put this prohibition on the fragilest of card types: a non-black, x/1 creature with no protection who is even vulnerable to disenchant as well as creature kill.   It seems fine to put a strong prohibition on such a vulnerable card.

[dangerlinto]

I feel for the poster here, although I don't share the over-reaction to this card - it's Alexander's proverbial answer to the Gordian knot.  The problem is with cards that use the word "can't" is there is no coming back from those.  One of the golden rules of Magic essentially means there is no undo button, and here in the eternal world they stick around forever.  The more often R&D resort to using "can't" effects, the more they shut off valves for playing card.  I'm especially remiss of using "can't" on effects that enable people to play cards.  If this card said "lands can't be destroyed" - I'd be overjoyed.  Destroying lands is s method to preventing people from playing their spells.  This one is not.

If you're implying that printing cards that flat out prohibit something - "You cannot draw cards" - are bad for the game, I'm not sure I agree.  Sure, if they put it in a hexproof 1/6 then you might have a point.  But they put this prohibition on the fragilest of card types: a non-black, x/1 creature with no protection who is even vulnerable to disenchant as well as creature kill.   It seems fine to put a strong prohibition on such a vulnerable card.

Like I said, I don't share the over-reaction.  I think the hypothetical is getting in the way of reasonable reaction to this particular card.

[Smmenen]

This is why Richard Garfield doesn't like planeswalkers: they are too complicated.

Hope this is a sign you got and are reading the book Stephen! Not sure I've seen him say this anywhere else.

 

I will be reading your book!  But that comes from my private conversation with Richard at US Nationals in 2008, as I reported here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16896-So-Many-Insane-Plays-Understanding-Magic.html

That was the conversation where I discovered from Dr. Garfield that Time Vault was supposed to work with Twiddle, and took that information to Wizards R&D and got Time Vault fixed. 

[Eastman]

That was the conversation where I discovered from Dr. Garfield that Time Vault was supposed to work with Twiddle, and took that information to Wizards R&D and got Time Vault fixed.  

I'd call you out for going off topic and gloating if this wasn't such an awesome story.  Also I love untapping Time Vault almost as much as I love tapping it.  

Back on topic:

The problem is that this card is best when played like a cheaper Notion Thief. You really want to Vial it in to "counter" an Ancestral/Brainstorm/Jacestorm/Gris activation/etc. Vial is too slow for Vintage, though. Mox+Cavern is simply better.

This point isn't as strong as you describe.  The surprise factor is only relevant for cards with a put-them-back effect, brainstorm and jace.  For a Gris and an Ancestral and a Preordain and a Gush, this is still totally gnarly without being viled in.  And it is 1W...MUCH cheaper than Thief and with the same body.  If Thief is borderline this is well over the border. 

[Soly]

I don't see how this really effects anyone other than *maybe* Oath and Blue Control decks.  RUG will laugh at it and just not cast their preordains/gushes until they bolt it or block it.    Merfolk will just laugh and turn sideways.  Shop decks will ROFL at it, and Combo decks really don't exist.

I fear this card when playing Doomsday, but other than that, it's marginal at best against any weapon I might be piloting.  Play tight and let this card minimally impact you.

If anything, I see this bringing Pyroclasm back.

[xouman]

@Soly: RUG will laugh against it? Not only you *souldn't* play preordains or gushes into it, it's still a 3/1 for 1W. RUG would have to spend a card on it, a fair 1 for 1. I agree that SotL would not be devastating by any means, but it's a really fine card.

Merfolks would be less affected, but silvergill gets neutered and without playing islands, a 3/1 means another 1 for 1 unless there are some lords. MUD does not draw extra cards, but having power 3 kills golem as well as revokers or factories, and it's another permanent to tap for tangle.

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't see how this really effects anyone other than *maybe* Oath and Blue Control decks.  RUG will laugh at it and just not cast their preordains/gushes until they bolt it or block it.    Merfolk will just laugh and turn sideways.  Shop decks will ROFL at it, and Combo decks really don't exist.

I fear this card when playing Doomsday, but other than that, it's marginal at best against any weapon I might be piloting.  Play tight and let this card minimally impact you.

If anything, I see this bringing Pyroclasm back.

That's many decks.  Particularly in Legacy, where TNN has made stoneblade decks into a big deal.  This card alone might cause people who are running 4x Ponder and 4x Brainstorm to rethink that strategy.

[Blue Lotus]

I hope every deck plays 4 of these so I have a justifiable reason to play Fact or Fiction. Also, if I kick dismantling blow on this card, do I get to draw cards?

One toughness creatures will never really give big blue fits, due to the ease of finding and casting darkblast, fire//ice, or lava dart, unless they are mana denial. Why deny them from drawing cards when you can deny them from casting the spells that draw cards (or casting the tutors the find answers to your creatures).

Aven mindcensor never really caught on and that card has 2 for 1 capabilities built in with flash as well as evasion. Granted 2 mana is a lot less than three, but I am skeptical of this being a real game changer.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I hope every deck plays 4 of these so I have a justifiable reason to play Fact or Fiction.

If that happened I would resort to many things before FOF.

[Protoaddict]

If this card forces you to run inferior cards to circumvent it, I would argue it did it's job before even hitting the battlefield, or even the deck.

But dredge still sees play in a field full of grave hate, so I would not suspect cutting your ancestral and brainstorm is a viable thing to do

[evouga]

Are there any cute combos with this guy?

For instance, Jace's Archivist is a fairly nasty soft lock. Anvil of Bogardan is similar but more symmetrical, and doesn't nuke the opponent's initial hand.

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, and Temple Bell, turn into one-sided card advantage. Cephalid Coliseum devastates the opponent's hand. Flashing in Vendillion Clique is even better than it usually is.

Arcane Denial becomes pretty good when used during your turn.

[evouga]

EDIT: Please delete, I misclicked.

[Protoaddict]

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea seems like a really strong idea for the mono white lists that will run this.

I have trouble believing that blue decks will want to run this card at all, its just counter to what they do, so i dont think arcane denial and the like are going to cut it.

Are there any other cards that allow your opponent to draw a card for massive benefit to you in white/colorless?

Edit: Oblation. Duh.

[Archae]

This gets up there on mana cost, but Spirit of the Labyrinth + Teferi's Puzzle box locks everyone out of the game, except for instants during the draw step.
So assemble that and you can just beat with Spirit. I could imagine someone playing Grand Abolisher and Teferi's (and we're in white, which can find artifacts) and white bears that just tries to get ahead on the board and lock the game out.

[serracollector]

This card works with fact or fiction and jace the architect still. why wouldnt a blue white deck run this with architect over mindsculptor? you can also run cards like opt or impulse instead me preordain and ponder.  i would still try it in a blue shell myself to just help the mirror.

[Protoaddict]

Because then your hedging too much against what your opponent is running.

You will be running inferior cards that are only better if and when you land a spirit on the table. In all other cases your opponents Ancestral, Brainstorm, and gushes are going to be better and cheaper and sometimes faster than you can land the spirit. If your opponent is playing removal then even more so.

Spirit is great for white trash because white trash did not run those draw cards in the first place, so its all upside no matter what, not so much if suddenly your playing around your own card.

[msg67183]

What doe this replace in White Trash?