Ritual Combo in 2014?

[WhiteLotus]

Hi everyone,

As the metagame is shifting towards Aggro based strategies, it seems like non controlish Storm decks could be undergoing a ressurgence ( non-Gush, Drain tendrils...). With Control decks packing down on the situational counter package (Most decks use to have 2 Flusterstorm and 3 Mental Misstep, now often it is 1 fluster + 2 missteps) to pack more removal maindeck and Workshops packing less spheres (Thorns seem to be largely falling out of favor, and decks that play them usually are light on SoR), it seems like the right moment for rituals to pop their head up again.

Everyone's sideboard is so diluted by the many different strategies of the format (GV hate, Creature hate, Artefact hate,...), most people are ill prepared to be facing good old fashion broken combo decks.

Also with recent development to Smemmen's Burning Oath list (now including pitch magic) and Reid duke performance at Champs with his Gitaxian/Grim long, it seems like people are more inclined to pick it up again and give it a try, recent tournament top 8s seem to be reflecting this to an extent (looks like about 4/5 people made top eight since January with builds close to Reid Duke's which probably nearly as much as in 2013).

As a ritual Padawan, I'd like to have some input on this, has anyone bothered trying to sleeve up some rituals again? if so what were your impressions towards todays metagame?

I've played a bit of the pitch version of Burning Oath myself and I was surprised to see it was pretty much on par with everything else, if a little weak to BUG Fish. Anyway, that deck doesn't really feel quite as exciting/thrilling/ challenging/enticing to pilot than older Long variants or TPS-likes did.

Which brought me to Take a look closer at Reid Duke's list, I've been testing it a bit with a few minor changes and it looks like it could be a contender.

Here's what I've been testing:

Maindeck
Mana sources (28)
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

Protection (8)
4 Duress
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Flusterstorm

Cantrips (7)
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk

Tutors (6)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Combo enablers (10)
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Win condition(1)
1 Tendrils of Agony


Sideboard
Tinker Target (1)
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Artifact hate (6)
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

Graveyard hate (3)
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Surgical Extraction

Counterspells (3)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast

Lands(2)
1 Island
1 Mountain


Differences with Duke's list

Maindeck:

- 1 Mental misstep
- 1 Cabal ritual
- 1 Simian spirit guide
- 1 Chrome mox
- 1 Polluted delta

+ 1 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Hurkyl's Recall
+ 1 Gifts ungiven
+ 1 Mox opal
+ 1 Island

The first thing I wanted to change was going from 30 mana sources to 28, seeing as Gitaxian Probe gives you a 56 card deck meaning that you only 14/15 of the normal amount. So I basically cut the weakest of them and replaced Chrome mox with Mox opal which is much stronger IMHO (no CDA and much better synergy with Bounce effects), also 7 fetchlands in a 12 land deck with only 1 brainstorm and 1 basic swamp felt pretty wrong, so I swapped a fetch for a basic island.

With 28 mana sources this gives two slots to fill.
I chose to add another combo enabler to up the threat density a bit, the obvious choice was Gifts ungiven, the next big thing after all the really busted stuff (Necro, Desire, Bargain, Yawgwill).

I wasn't also quite as pleased with the Protection package, only two bounce effects main seemed a bit utopist given the game 1 against Shops, and Mental misstep while good in the deck to stop enemy missteps/spell pierce, isn't really something you'd want to tutor for like say Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm stops busted things like Tinker or Yawgmoth's will and is also very good for protecting primary bombs like Yawgwill, Desire or the lethal tendrils.

I've noticed that most people usually add 2 Preordain instead, but I don't really feel like the deck needs to be more consistent than it already is, I'm also not really a big fan of preordain.

Sideboard

- 4 Tormod's crypt
- 1 Rebuild
- 1 red elemental blast
- 1 Island
- 1 Swamp
- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Empty the Warrens

+ 3 Ingot Chewer
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Yixlid Jailer
+ 1 Surgical extraction
+ 1 Hurkyl's Recall
+ 1 Mountain

The sideboard is completely based on theory/speculation and not tuned towards any metagame, rather to adress the problematic matchups and adjustments of the dead cards across certain matchups of the maindeck.

The Workshop sideboard plan is a lot stronger than the original list and not without reason. Developing a stable basic land mana base and bouncing their board EOT is still the primary plan like it use to, only now you often don't have the luxury of digging and setting up to do a much faster clock, that's the main reason I included Ingot Chewer. It can destroy their clock or random lock pieces while passing under Thorn and/or Chalice at 1 and is hardcastable due to it's relevant 3 power as a blocker for Lodestone golem. Essentially Ingot Chewers allow you to not fall too far behind while setting yourself to go off. Empty the Warrens is cute but it's only really useful on the play which isn't the real challenge in this matchup as you all know. Blightsteel is plenty enough already.

The dredge plan is pretty straightforward, out tempo them a turn or two with hate in order to be able to consistently race them (especially when they're on the play).

For the control matchup, I like to slow down a bit and set up an incounterable win (TPS style) with Flusterstorm and Duress, Probes are also really good information to play around and overwhelm their hand. Pyroblast get's the cut because it can be played to up storm count, it interacts with Planeswalkers, and can stop Snapcaster/clique in their tracks.

Thanks for taking the time to read me and participating in this topic,

Cheers

[Hrishi]

I would really like to contribute to this thread and see where it goes as well. I will post a bit more about my experiences playing ritual combo for the past 2 months. For now, I'd just like to say that the metagame is so harsh for combo. I feel like in order to succeed it has to be fast. I really love ritual based decks and would love to see it being played.

I agree with cutting Empty the Warrens, I haven't really had any situations where I felt like I needed it. I am honestly considering moving away from Blightsteel due to the creature heavy field and using something like Inkwell Leviathan or Sphinx of the Steel Wind or something, because people now tend to run so many bounce/creature removal spells that it's fairly easy to deal with Blightsteel. Perhaps it could be sideboarded as an option.

I think Yixlid Jailer is a worse choice than Ravenous trap because Jailer gets hit by Darkblast, which seems to be a common option for Dredge? I could be wrong but that was my logic behind not including them.

I have also considered cutting Windfall because it is such a gambit. I'm already iffy about Wheel of Fortune because it gives the opposing control player 7 new cards to disrupt you but sometimes Wheel is so good.

I will post the list I have been working on once I get home.

[WhiteLotus]

I would really like to contribute to this thread and see where it goes as well. I will post a bit more about my experiences playing ritual combo for the past 2 months. For now, I'd just like to say that the metagame is so harsh for combo. I feel like in order to succeed it has to be fast. I really love ritual based decks and would love to see it being played.

I agree with cutting Empty the Warrens, I haven't really had any situations where I felt like I needed it. I am honestly considering moving away from Blightsteel due to the creature heavy field and using something like Inkwell Leviathan or Sphinx of the Steel Wind or something, because people now tend to run so many bounce/creature removal spells that it's fairly easy to deal with Blightsteel. Perhaps it could be sideboarded as an option.

I think Yixlid Jailer is a worse choice than Ravenous trap because Jailer gets hit by Darkblast, which seems to be a common option for Dredge? I could be wrong but that was my logic behind not including them.

I have also considered cutting Windfall because it is such a gambit. I'm already iffy about Wheel of Fortune because it gives the opposing control player 7 new cards to disrupt you but sometimes Wheel is so good.

I will post the list I have been working on once I get home.

Hi, it's nice to see that even though most people consider the pillar almost extinct, there are other new adepts to try it (aside from myself I mean) I definitely hope this topic picks up some steam.

@ BSC The blightsteel is only meant to come in against Workshops and Creature decks with mana denial. I'm really not a fan of it in this deck.

@ Yixlid Jailer I want them to dig for their darkblasts (which most lists only run 2), that's the point, that way they are loosing tempo, and since both decks are the same speed on average, it will tip it in my favor. I've also thought of just running 3 surgical extraction to remove bridges/dread return, which is a tremendous tempo loss for them. I really only want to win a turn or two usually.

@ windfall I think each match up has different engines that shine most in it (aside from yawgwill of course which is obviously the best). For example in a control matchup Necro and desire are the strongest, but against shops or dredge I find that draw 7s are key especially on the play since you force them in a hand they can't mulligan out of. But also because they won't get counters off the draw 7s. 
Against control (after turn 1) I prefer to use the draw 7s as bait or to recharge. Aside from Memory Jar of course, which is the best draw 7 by far since it doesn't advance their gameplan and you get to set it up.

[PeAcH]

As the metagame is shifting towards Aggro based strategies, it seems like non controlish Storm decks could be undergoing a ressurgence ( non-Gush, Drain tendrils...). With Control decks packing down on the situational counter package (Most decks use to have 2 Flusterstorm and 3 Mental Misstep, now often it is 1 fluster + 2 missteps) to pack more removal maindeck and Workshops packing less spheres (Thorns seem to be largely falling out of favor, and decks that play them usually are light on SoR), it seems like the right moment for rituals to pop their head up again.

It´s a really weird feeling when you read someone´s line of thought and you find your own way of approaching the meta reflected in his lines. Thanks Whitelotus for bringing the subject online

There has been a lack of discussion on this kind of archetypes or bringing up issues of this nature for long time.

What I really don´t like about Vintage right now is the lack of sharing decklists and such. We are living in a world where local tournaments reported have around 15 to 25 people. Not sharing TECH to compete in small tournaments prevents us from developing something together. And I really miss that part of the community right now.

Back on topic, after seeing how the meta adapts to creatures in the last months, I DO really believe there is room for combo in all this. After the appearance of the Red Zone users in our beloved format (who were really well positioned to fight MUD), Oath has begun to show the horns (at least in the LCV meta). The following natural move would be graviting towards combo builds who have always been the natural predator of Oath variants from my point of view. Mud is also moving away from heavy lock package to maindeck Cricibles and Staff of Nin to fight both creature decks and mirror matches.

I have been toying around with that reasoning for some weeks now and have been testing a Longish build based on Reid´s build against Dredge, Keeper, Rector Omniscience and MUD.

My only concern about UB(R) Storm builds is whether you really need red or not at all. For now, I´m just splashing it and see where I go from there. Do you really like/need the REB sideboard package? Maybe more discard can just do the trick and be more redundant.

My approach to the archetype has been to add more basic lands and cantrips to the main to stabilize against Wastelandia metagame and thus being able to free some sideboard space with the move. Also, you can always board out basics versus non Wasteland decks XD

So here is the decklist I have currently sleeved up:

Peach Long

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Necropotence
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Mind´s Desire

4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl´s Recall

1 Yawgmoth´s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the warrens

Sideboard:
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl´s Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Maindeck is pure gas. Turn 2 Desire for 10? I´m in

Maybe I´m missing the LED+Grim package in favour of Preordains...but the 3 blue cantrips have helped me to drasticaly lower the number of mulligans I was taking....

When goldfishing I always try to go off on turn 2. Turn 3 Max. For me, turn 3 is the very latest turn you have if you want to stay competitive playing combo. Always thinking you are on the play. While on the draw, I try to maximize turn 2 wins. So just go for it...

Decklist has proven consistent versus MUD, which was my main concern and what should made me decide on discarding the archetype or not. When my MUD sparring said he did not want to test the matchup any more I knew I had a winner

Windfall was my concern while playing Burning Oath for a long time...and I was not into it. Right now with this build I love it.

A Draw7 is always welcome and you need to maximize it´s utility first 1-2 turns when your opponent is not fully developed. If you are afraid of playing Draw7s due to giving your opponent 7 fresh cards you should not be playing this archetype

BTW, Draw7 best friend EVAR is Probe. This card is so cool in allowing you free wins vs. non FOW hands (even versus FOW hands you play a LOT more confidant as you know what can happen).

Empty the warrens just seems a natural fit also in a creature heavy metagame...maybe I´m wrong, or maybe I should be playing 2 more EtW on Board...

I just encourage anyone who does really love the format to try a build of this kind. You will get the Vintage spark back!

[Hrishi]

I have a suggestion for the sideboard. In the aggro heavy metagame we are facing, which incidentally has a ton of white, I am going to include a couple copies of Massacre. Against most creature decks, it's a free sweeper and in a pinch you can pay for it. I feel it works better than Toxic Deluge currently for this purpose.

[WhiteLotus]

It´s a really weird feeling when you read someone´s line of thought and you find your own way of approaching the meta reflected in his lines. Thanks Whitelotus for bringing the subject online

There has been a lack of discussion on this kind of archetypes or bringing up issues of this nature for long time.

What I really don´t like about Vintage right now is the lack of sharing decklists and such. We are living in a world where local tournaments reported have around 15 to 25 people. Not sharing TECH to compete in small tournaments prevents us from developing something together. And I really miss that part of the community right now.

Back on topic, after seeing how the meta adapts to creatures in the last months, I DO really believe there is room for combo in all this. After the appearance of the Red Zone users in our beloved format (who were really well positioned to fight MUD), Oath has begun to show the horns (at least in the LCV meta). The following natural move would be graviting towards combo builds who have always been the natural predator of Oath variants from my point of view. Mud is also moving away from heavy lock package to maindeck Cricibles and Staff of Nin to fight both creature decks and mirror matches.

I have been toying around with that reasoning for some weeks now and have been testing a Longish build based on Reid´s build against Dredge, Keeper, Rector Omniscience and MUD.

My only concern about UB(R) Storm builds is whether you really need red or not at all. For now, I´m just splashing it and see where I go from there. Do you really like/need the REB sideboard package? Maybe more discard can just do the trick and be more redundant.

My approach to the archetype has been to add more basic lands and cantrips to the main to stabilize against Wastelandia metagame and thus being able to free some sideboard space with the move. Also, you can always board out basics versus non Wasteland decks XD

So here is the decklist I have currently sleeved up:

Peach Long

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Necropotence
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Mind´s Desire

4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl´s Recall

1 Yawgmoth´s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the warrens

Sideboard:
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl´s Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Maindeck is pure gas. Turn 2 Desire for 10? I´m in

Maybe I´m missing the LED+Grim package in favour of Preordains...but the 3 blue cantrips have helped me to drasticaly lower the number of mulligans I was taking....

When goldfishing I always try to go off on turn 2. Turn 3 Max. For me, turn 3 is the very latest turn you have if you want to stay competitive playing combo. Always thinking you are on the play. While on the draw, I try to maximize turn 2 wins. So just go for it...

Decklist has proven consistent versus MUD, which was my main concern and what should made me decide on discarding the archetype or not. When my MUD sparring said he did not want to test the matchup any more I knew I had a winner

Windfall was my concern while playing Burning Oath for a long time...and I was not into it. Right now with this build I love it.

A Draw7 is always welcome and you need to maximize it´s utility first 1-2 turns when your opponent is not fully developed. If you are afraid of playing Draw7s due to giving your opponent 7 fresh cards you should not be playing this archetype

BTW, Draw7 best friend EVAR is Probe. This card is so cool in allowing you free wins vs. non FOW hands (even versus FOW hands you play a LOT more confidant as you know what can happen).

Empty the warrens just seems a natural fit also in a creature heavy metagame...maybe I´m wrong, or maybe I should be playing 2 more EtW on Board...

I just encourage anyone who does really love the format to try a build of this kind. You will get the Vintage spark back!

I'm glad to bring people (Hopefully more will join in) here so we can get something going. There's basically no other deck I'd rather be playing than one with Tendrils of agony, it still is the fastest and most awesome way to kill in vintage, while being very addictive, fun and challenging.
I feel discussion as totally been really non existent, and as a novice to the pillar (which one of the most challenging to play btw) I really think more info and emulation are needed. Even Smemmen's Burning Oath deck isn't seeing much discussion although IMHO it's currently one of the strongest decks in the metagame, not just something for ritual lovers.

When I picked up vintage again in 2013, rituals really were unplayable even Gush was very borderline, but I don't know last year the metagame has really evolved, every pillar really seems to be on par with each other now, obviously Tendrils are still almost non existent but I think that is largely due to people thinking they are unplayable and the fact that they are very skill intensive which means that they always have been less played compared to what they can do.

Also we were missing a nice decklist in the top 8 of a major tournament. I've been seeing this "Gitaxian long" deck more and more in Tournament reports from the mana drain lately.

What I like about Red is that it gives access to Chewer which is one of the best hate cards against Shops. Wheel of fortune is also a must have for any Long variant. Pyroblast is nice against Jace, clique and Snapcaster, but it's very far from being the reason we're playing red.

Your list looks a lot stronger against shops in game 1. It's usually a nightmare for mine, that's why I strongly geared the sideboard towards being able to beat them in games 2 and 3. How has ETW been working for you (also, how do you like it in other matchups) ? I use to have it in the side because it's awesome when on the play against shops but when you're on the draw it's just crap. How much of the time would you say you're winning against them? My lists does something like 30% game 1 and 50% games 2 and 3 (against Espresso Stax, which is one of the toughest Shop matchups IMHO).

How do you like dismember? do you bring it in also against shops to kill their clock? So far I've been using chewer for that, but although it's really great against shops it can't be used in other matchups, so dismember may be a way to go, I'll have to test it.
I didn't pack any creature removal in the side, I reasoned that the only really problematic creatures are white and I've never been confronted with hatebears so far (even with other decks) so I suppose it's fine to just hope to avoid them.
In the creature matchup I've tested (RUG and BUG) I found that the only problematic one is BUG and usually it's not the creatures that are putting you behind it's the mana denial and counterspells that allow them exploit the incremental advantage they provide (BOB, DRS), so I usually board in basics, counterspells and Blightsteel here.
Rug is fast but is much less interactive in a meaningful way (aside from counters). Merfolks don't have any real way to get cards into their hands and keep up with your bombs + their counterspells aren't very convincing (Daze), as long as they don't null rod you it's fine and seeing as they don't have any draw engine or tutors you're relatively safe on that point.

I have a question for you though, why run 6 cards of hate against dredge? In my testing I've only ever really needed Hate when they're on the play because the dread return variants usually win the game turn 2 and while this deck is fast, turn 1 wins aren't that common. I don't want to be bringing too much hate that it will slow me down, I just want some hate that makes them loose tempo, so I can win before they do.
Todays crop of dredge decks are usually heavily geared to be dealing with enchantment and artifact hate (Nature's claim, Ancient grudge, Ingot chewer, Wispmare).
Jailer seems pretty good since most lists run 2 darkblasts in the main and 0 in the side, it's also a lot easier to bring back after a Chain of vapor than Leyline is. Surgical extraction is also an all star since their only way of interacting with it is mental misstep, when used against Bridge it really slows them down since they can't use dread return on the Zealot to win on the spot, and it just really slows them down in any case, Bridge is the card that makes the deck good (aside from Bazaar).

Yeah I agree draw 7s aren't the same at all in this deck and Burning oath, Here they only ever fizzle if your opponent is able to out counter you, in burning oath most of the time you usually wind up playing Oath of druids off them, since it needs two wishes to go lethal with Yawgwill. That deck works very differently with it's engines and all.

I honestly think that Probe is the deck's best friend period haha, it's all you want it to be and more, it's a free cantrip, a deck thinner, free storm, yawgwill enabler with any topdeck tutor and most importantly it gives crucial information without costing an opportunity like duress.
I usually don't keep hands that don't have a probe or a duress against control, as it makes me feel naked. The information really makes me feel like I'm in control and I have them right where I want them, while they have no option but to counter anything I send at them. I also like Flusterstorm in this context as it easily let's you set up one of your more busted engines in a truely uncounterable way for just one blue mana.
What I like about this list is that it can play like Tps and Grim Long at the same time.

[dangerlinto]

I have a suggestion for the sideboard. In the aggro heavy metagame we are facing, which incidentally has a ton of white, I am going to include a couple copies of Massacre. Against most creature decks, it's a free sweeper and in a pinch you can pay for it. I feel it works better than Toxic Deluge currently for this purpose.

If their tonne of white includes Teeg, though, you can't cast Massacre.  But you can cast Deluge.  Also, Massacre can't kill anything with a toughtness greater than 2.  While most creature decks aren't to worry about that, if you need to to clear the board of say, an annoying Goyf or some other clock, Massacre isn't going to do it for you.

[TheWhiteDragon]

What I really don´t like about Vintage right now is the lack of sharing decklists and such. We are living in a world where local tournaments reported have around 15 to 25 people. Not sharing TECH to compete in small tournaments prevents us from developing something together. And I really miss that part of the community right now.

Small tourney or not, nothing bugs me more than when I come up with a novel, yet effective idea, brew it, tune it, test it, take it to a tourney...and then sit across from my own decklist that I leaked online and get my face smashed by my own deck +tweaks.

Imagine you are the first in your area to think of helmline (just example).  You post a list. You got to your next tourney and play against a nearly identical list that your opponent saw "online somewhere" + 4 disenchants to break the mirror.  How sucky would that be?

Or worse yet, you leak a new deck or tech...you go to a tourney, and now everyone knows your decklist before the game begins, and since you typically play at that shop and T8 or win, they're already packing 6+ tech against your specific deck just to shut you down.  Sucks, huh?

[dangerlinto]

What I really don´t like about Vintage right now is the lack of sharing decklists and such. We are living in a world where local tournaments reported have around 15 to 25 people. Not sharing TECH to compete in small tournaments prevents us from developing something together. And I really miss that part of the community right now.

Small tourney or not, nothing bugs me more than when I come up with a novel, yet effective idea, brew it, tune it, test it, take it to a tourney...and then sit across from my own decklist that I leaked online and get my face smashed by my own deck +tweaks.

Imagine you are the first in your area to think of helmline (just example).  You post a list. You got to your next tourney and play against a nearly identical list that your opponent saw "online somewhere" + 4 disenchants to break the mirror.  How sucky would that be?

Or worse yet, you leak a new deck or tech...you go to a tourney, and now everyone knows your decklist before the game begins, and since you typically play at that shop and T8 or win, they're already packing 6+ tech against your specific deck just to shut you down.  Sucks, huh?

Get used to it.  When vintage comes online in 4 months every placing decklist (or the vast majority of them) will end up being posted like 36 hours later.

[TheWhiteDragon]

What I really don´t like about Vintage right now is the lack of sharing decklists and such. We are living in a world where local tournaments reported have around 15 to 25 people. Not sharing TECH to compete in small tournaments prevents us from developing something together. And I really miss that part of the community right now.

Small tourney or not, nothing bugs me more than when I come up with a novel, yet effective idea, brew it, tune it, test it, take it to a tourney...and then sit across from my own decklist that I leaked online and get my face smashed by my own deck +tweaks.

Imagine you are the first in your area to think of helmline (just example).  You post a list. You got to your next tourney and play against a nearly identical list that your opponent saw "online somewhere" + 4 disenchants to break the mirror.  How sucky would that be?

Or worse yet, you leak a new deck or tech...you go to a tourney, and now everyone knows your decklist before the game begins, and since you typically play at that shop and T8 or win, they're already packing 6+ tech against your specific deck just to shut you down.  Sucks, huh?

Get used to it.  When vintage comes online in 4 months every placing decklist (or the vast majority of them) will end up being posted like 36 hours later.

Playing against my own decklist doesn't bother me.  Losing to my own decklist before I ever play it in a tourney, THAT annoys me.  I understand winning lists get posted.  I just don't see any point in publicly tipping one's hand and revealing new decks/sharing new tech before you ever play it yourself.  All that does is put you at a major disadvantage to anyone on TMD that plays in your arena.

[mmcgeach]

I see your point about running into your own decks.  I had two thoughts about that. 1) isn't it kind of flattering?  and 2) maybe there's a difference in the frequency and effectiveness with which people grab decklists off the net and achieve tournament success based on the type of deck.  Like, if some decks are mostly unpowered, nearly-budget options, with comparatively simple lines of play, don't those lend themselves to new players picking them up? Or experienced players from other formats jumping into vintage with those types of decks?  Cause if we're talking about IDK, merfolk, there's (much) more decision-making that goes into deck construction than actually playing the deck.  That could be a case of a deck that people can pick up and beat it's creator with: getting a strong draw and splashing, say, llawan, cephalid empress, for the mirror.

But while we're talking about Storm combo here, I think that's much less the case.  Newer players can be drawn to storm; but they're not good with it unless they're also very good players.  Take all Smemnen's Burning Oath articles as an example.  He's written IDK how much about that, and tons of people play it, but I think with maybe 1 exception, nobody does as well with it as he does.  He even has some tournament reports describing how he beats the mirror by knowing his deck better than his opponent.

[Hrishi]

Is nobody a fan of running FoWs anymore, especially for the shops matchup? I've always been a huge fan of running FoWs, but I've noticed that fewer and fewer decklists seem to include them.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I see your point about running into your own decks.  I had two thoughts about that. 1) isn't it kind of flattering?  and 2) maybe there's a difference in the frequency and effectiveness with which people grab decklists off the net and achieve tournament success based on the type of deck.  Like, if some decks are mostly unpowered, nearly-budget options, with comparatively simple lines of play, don't those lend themselves to new players picking them up? Or experienced players from other formats jumping into vintage with those types of decks?  Cause if we're talking about IDK, merfolk, there's (much) more decision-making that goes into deck construction than actually playing the deck.  That could be a case of a deck that people can pick up and beat it's creator with: getting a strong draw and splashing, say, llawan, cephalid empress, for the mirror.

But while we're talking about Storm combo here, I think that's much less the case.  Newer players can be drawn to storm; but they're not good with it unless they're also very good players.  Take all Smemnen's Burning Oath articles as an example.  He's written IDK how much about that, and tons of people play it, but I think with maybe 1 exception, nobody does as well with it as he does.  He even has some tournament reports describing how he beats the mirror by knowing his deck better than his opponent.

But, you're missing a major point - it's not necessarily that a player will play your exact decklist (though it has actually happened before - when something is good and it can easily be seen through testing, then an experienced player might pick it up and run with it - even against the designer if they play in the same shop), but much worse is when they hate it out.  

When I play in small tourneys of around 15-20 (I really don't even consider any tourney with less than 50 participants worth noting as a "winning list"), it tends to be the same crowd +/-5.  Also, I tend to T8 every time and win more often than not.  If I post an awesome new decklist and discuss some of the card choices, then it's not even necessary for anyone to copy my list to screw me up in a tourney.  All they have to do is choose any decklist that seems particularly strong against me, or fill up on hate.  Let's say I design something fantastic that is completely new and innovative.  It's cruching on MWS in testing, and would be sure to crush in my local scene.  The deck runs welders and wheel and many red bombs.  I sit against some opponents in the next tourney and notice that people are packing maindeck chills, douse, and a board full of hydroblasts.  They basically just took me out of the tourney and just have to beat each other.  A similar scenario has actually happened to me.  1 person was a TMD user and saw my list.  They told 3 of their buddies at the shop.  Next thing you know I'm sitting across decks that are packing cards that have no legit business being in any list of 75, but yet are the perfect answer to my newly brewed deck.  

I'm not discouraging sharing.  I'm saying it leads to a major disadvantage when you reveal your whole 75 to a tourney scene before you've ever piloted the deck in public.  If you play it and do well, then by all means post a primer, post results and the decklist.  That's great  Just don't do it until AFTER you've won, unless you want to see some funky anti-you tech showing up at your next local tourney.

To tie this back to the thread, if you reveal some kind of great innovation in storm, then that engine can be easily shut down by opponents hating you out.  Maybe you post a new storm tech and show you are excited about its potential.  Next tourney, your typical dredge and gro players are now running thorns and spheres with shops.  And your scrub white weenie pilots are now packing 4 maindeck true believers.  Players can beat up on each other all the time, but if there's a clear #1 over time, then it's usually everyone's priority to just beat that guy.

[Soly]

WhiteLotus;  thanks for the PM requesting my response to this thread.

I must apologize as I have skimmed most of this thread, as I have been buried in my personal life and really unable to devote a lot of time to magic (I am on a Hiatus that will see me resuming magical cards right before the NYSEII).

Anyway....

I think that anyone playing Force of Will is wrong.   I feel like I have beaten the dead, decaying horse on this subject.  That said, I think Flusterstorm is amazing.  It is 10x better than Red Blast in anything you realistically want Red Blast for.

In storm, I'd also be very hardstruck to not include Cabal Therapy as a 2 or 3 of.  The card is absolutely fantastic, and really rewards your knowledge of the metagame, your opponent, and the game itself.  I have therapied Workshops and gotten their Golem, or sometimes Golem.  Hitting Flusterstorms is always great, as is hitting their Snapcasters.   I never once have cared about Force of Will when playing combo.  Usually, I end up using their Force of Wills for Storm count.

I wouldn't be caught dead right now without Defense Grid in the Sideboard.   it dodges Mistep and Lightning Bolt (Something Xantid Swarm doesn't do well). 

I would definitely play Ad Naseum right now.  Blightsteel can go into the Sideboard easily, and Ad Naseum people forget is instant.

I will add more later if I remember.   I must return to work.

[TheWhiteDragon]

WhiteLotus;  thanks for the PM requesting my response to this thread.

I must apologize as I have skimmed most of this thread, as I have been buried in my personal life and really unable to devote a lot of time to magic (I am on a Hiatus that will see me resuming magical cards right before the NYSEII).

Anyway....

I think that anyone playing Force of Will is wrong.   I feel like I have beaten the dead, decaying horse on this subject.  That said, I think Flusterstorm is amazing.  It is 10x better than Red Blast in anything you realistically want Red Blast for.

In storm, I'd also be very hardstruck to not include Cabal Therapy as a 2 or 3 of.  The card is absolutely fantastic, and really rewards your knowledge of the metagame, your opponent, and the game itself.  I have therapied Workshops and gotten their Golem, or sometimes Golem.  Hitting Flusterstorms is always great, as is hitting their Snapcasters.   I never once have cared about Force of Will when playing combo.  Usually, I end up using their Force of Wills for Storm count.

I wouldn't be caught dead right now without Defense Grid in the Sideboard.   it dodges Mistep and Lightning Bolt (Something Xantid Swarm doesn't do well). 

I would definitely play Ad Naseum right now.  Blightsteel can go into the Sideboard easily, and Ad Naseum people forget is instant.

I will add more later if I remember.   I must return to work.

Agreed, FoW is not necessary in storm.  It's a heavy flip to bob or ad nauseum, depending on your build.  Most importantly though, it's dead when you are cantripping to go off and also requires you to toss other blue spells which are needed to win.

Fluster is better and great, but I think more in the sb than main unless you know your meta is instant heavy.

I dunno about therapy.  It can be good, but can also wiff, and you have no critters (unless you have a bob build) to get value out of flashback.  I've only found it good vs oath.  I much prefer thoughtseize (even over fluster) since you gain that valuable knowledge while yanking the best spell in the opponent's hand every time.  Yes, it costs -2 life, but for the same cost and sorcery speed as therapy, it just seems much better.  Going blind therapy to nail a golem is potentially an 0 for 1.  If they have spheres instead, you are hurt.  If you wait to learn that they are on shops, then you will stare down a golem before getting to your turn 2 more often than not.  What do you name G1 against a new opponent?

Defense grid is awesome in any sb not running counters - agreed.

[WhiteLotus]

Fluster is better and great, but I think more in the sb than main unless you know your meta is instant heavy.

I dunno about therapy.  It can be good, but can also wiff, and you have no critters (unless you have a bob build) to get value out of flashback.  I've only found it good vs oath.  I much prefer thoughtseize (even over fluster) since you gain that valuable knowledge while yanking the best spell in the opponent's hand every time.  Yes, it costs -2 life, but for the same cost and sorcery speed as therapy, it just seems much better.  Going blind therapy to nail a golem is potentially an 0 for 1.  If they have spheres instead, you are hurt.  If you wait to learn that they are on shops, then you will stare down a golem before getting to your turn 2 more often than not.  What do you name G1 against a new opponent?

Defense grid is awesome in any sb not running counters - agreed.

A lone fluster in the main is great to tutor for when you've kept a threat light hand against any blue deck and/or you're aiming to go for Mind's desire, its good against everything that isn't shops (even dredge). It's the counterspell that makes the most sense for storm since it obviously has synergy with how the deck operates and is uncounterable unless your opponent uses one of the storm counterspells they would of used against your mind's desire. I found it to be invaluable when you are unable to probe/duress your opponent.

IMHO Spheres are almost irrelevant against workshops, what matters the most is getting rid of their clock so you have time to establish your mana base and prepare to bounce their board end step before going off. That's why I play ingot chewers in the side so I can get rid of the threat or problematic chalices... etc when I'm not yet ready to bounce and go off.

I don't know about defense grid it just seems like one more bait spell in the sense that if they are holding counterspells it would disrupt, they're probably using them on the grid in the first place unless it was something too situational.
The way I approach the blue matchup is either slowing down a bit and setting up an uncounterable win with flusterstorm backup (TPS style) or just overwhelm the opponent's hand with bombs and duresses (Long style). That way I have 8 disruption spells and 10 bombs, it seems pretty unlikely they'll be able to keep up short of some nut hand.

Is nobody a fan of running FoWs anymore, especially for the shops matchup? I've always been a huge fan of running FoWs, but I've noticed that fewer and fewer decklists seem to include them.

I used to be an advocate of playing force of wills in storm combo, but they're just wrong for what the deck is trying to accomplish especially in Long variants.
Force of will is bad because it costs you two cards to do 1 thing when this deck wants to use 1 card to do multiple things, against control you just pitched your draw 7 and used a fow that could of been another enabler which would of let you overwhelm your opponent.
Against shop you countered their first turn lock piece but are down two spells so it's very unrealistic you have the gas to go off in your turn. Additionally shop decks usually sequence their spells in such a way that they are prepared to deal with turn 1 fow and play another lock piece.

Also what would you cut to add 4 fows?

besides Workshop are only really scary game 1 if you kept a hand ill prepared for this matchup or when you are on the draw and they have a nut openning, it's actually not that bad of a matchup. Shop players don't like hurkyl's recall/ rebuild especially when you win in the turn.

I agree with soly your opponent fowing one of your threats is actually good for you since they just 2 for 1'd themselves and you can make them pay for it, they have a lot of dead cards against you, while most of your spells are must counter for them whether it's one shot acceleration, tutors, or combo enablers. I think Mental misstep and mana drain are a lot scarier than force of will.

[Hrishi]

Also what would you cut to add 4 fows?

Well, this is the list I was considering taking to the next event. I'm not sure what I'd add if I were to remove the FoWs? Open to criticism! Maybe I'm being extremely biased here, but my metagame is very shops heavy, and FoWs seem like the only way to prevent a major threat hitting the board on game 1, letting you have a chance of winning. Games 2 and 3 are a lot easier when you bring hate in, but game 1 is so rough.

I wanted to post the list I was working on a while back for criticism but somehow it just slipped my mind.

Lands
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Memory Jar

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire

Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
3 Defense Grid
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Thoughts? I like the red splash for access to Ingot Chewers, not to mention Wheel of Fortune. Inkwell Leviathan in the sideboard for decks filled with answers to Blightsteel! For matchups where I'd bring Defense Grid in, I'd probably simply take the FoWs out.

[Hrishi]

Double posted by accident.

[Smmenen]

I tested Pitch Long variants without Oath extensively before Vintage Champs, and found many of them strong and promising.  The main difficulty I found was defeating heavy countermagic decks like Landstill.  

I think Pitch Long is a perfectly viable archetype in any environment with minimal landstill.  

Here's what I ended up with:

Pitch Long,
Stephen Menendian
October, 2013

4 Burning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Blightsteel Colossus
34 spells
4 Dark Rituals
5 Moxen
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
26 mana

Sideboard:
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Shattering Spree
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain

The best tactic against Landstill was Tinker for BSC, which is why I ended up playing Oath, since that gave me 4 Tinkers that cost 2 mana.  But for folks in regular environments, this is a pretty fun deck.

[Hrishi]

What would you say is the main difference between a deck being called Pitch Long or TPS? I know they borrow tech from each other extensively but what makes them unique?

[Smmenen]

Long decks have a 3-4 of tutor (B Wish, Death Wish, or Grim Tutor) complement to find Yawg Will. 

[WhiteLotus]

What would you say is the main difference between a deck being called Pitch Long or TPS? I know they borrow tech from each other extensively but what makes them unique?

From what I've gathered the difference between lists can be very subtle but the way the decks operate are different.

Burning Long (Burning Wish) was the original Storm deck if I'm correct, it had 4 LED and 4 Burning wish which were soon restricted, it then had to evolve into death long (Death Wish) before becoming Grim long (Grim Tutor) they usually were 5c. Tps was a storm deck created as a response to Workshop's Trinisphere era with a strong UB fetchland mana base, force of will and bounces, it was made to be more resilient at the cost of speed and consistency. Although I think towards the end Pitch long and TPS we're very similar but that wasn't always the case (see Grim long and Burning long)

Long decks are agressive and keep throwing bombs until they wear the opponent's defenses down and can go for the win, they usually have 4 duresses, a high threat density and tutor aggressively for Ywill. TPS sculpts its hand and takes it time to set up it's win while disrupting it's opponent with duresses and Fow, it usually has less draw 7s less acceleration and includes stuff like Fact or fiction and Gifts ungiven. Pitch long is a long deck that uses pitch magic to force one of it's bombs through countermagic.
TPS and pitch long need to be able to dig, that's why Brainstorm's restriction severly crippled them.

You should read Smennen's SCG archive there is plenty of rich in detail articles about Burning Long, Grim long and TPS. They go in depth about how the decks function and provide insight towards potential lines of play and scenarios. Even though some of those articles are more then 10 years old, you'll see that the lists haven't changed that much, so they aren't outdated at all.
Some of the few things that have changed are the counterspells and hate you now have to play around though.

[WhiteLotus]

Hi all,

After runinng the Gitaxian long list from the original post a bit on cockatrice, I noticed that several things didn't quit fit and that the list needed some adjustments. So I made some tweaks  accordingly, here's what I did:

Maindeck
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Gifts ungiven
+ 2 Preordain

Sideboard
-1 hurkyl's recall
-2 Flusterstorm
-1 Pyroblast
-2 yixlid jailer
+1 surgical extraction
+1 toxic deluge
+2 dismember
+2 thoughtseize

The maindeck was already working pretty nicely for me in terms of threat density and playing around counters, but there was way to much mulliganing to get to a decent hand sometimes. Gifts was not the bomb I wanted it to be in this deck due to it being too slow and expensive.
Flusterstorm is rarely better than just another discard spell and can't be played off rituals and doesn't give any information, it's also hardly polyvalent at all.

I changed the sideboard as well. It was really soft to Hatebear strategies and too much cards weren't flexible across matchups. I did make myself rather weak towards dredge though especially Dread return variants, but the slots are feeling pretty tight right now. I'll have to test this new sideboard to find the right balance.
I didn't manage to find any space for Pithing needle though I think the deck would really like having access to it in a number of matchups. It would be useful to fight bazaar, wasteland, welder, kuldotha, Jace, time vault,  ... Probably Ingot chewer could go, but it's really nice at keeping workshops at bay on the draw. Thoughts ?

Here is what the list looks like currently:

3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

4 Dark Ritual
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will


SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer

Any constructive criticism, suggestions, input would be greatly appreciated  

Cheers,

White Lotus

[mmcgeach]

The maindeck was already working pretty nicely for me in terms of threat density and playing around counters, but there was way to much mulliganing to get to a decent hand sometimes. Gifts was not the bomb I wanted it to be in this deck due to it being too slow and expensive.

Our testing agreed with that... two preordains are pretty good.  I love Gifts from the old TPS lists, but it is just too slow in this list.  We tried subbing it out for an empty the warrens (main deck).  Empty for storm >= 5 usually gets there.  And sometimes storm == 4 works.

Also agree the deck is too soft to hatebears - which I feel is probably this list's worst matchup.  Will try out your sideboard plan.

[dangerlinto]

Also agree the deck is too soft to hatebears - which I feel is probably this list's worst matchup.  Will try out your sideboard plan.

If the Deluge is just there for hatebears  (i can't think of any other creature-based deck you want a sweeper for to be able to advance the plan), Virtue's Ruin might be a better fit.  Sometimes that 2 life is the difference when you've been beaten down.   

Maybe not often enough, though.  Just a suggestion.

[Soly]

I disagree with Preordain;  the card isn't very good at what you need it to do.   Trust me, I LOVE the card, but it doesn't FIT well into what TPS is trying to do.

You want a card in that spot?  Try Sensei's Divining Top.  You can do CRAZY tricks with this card. Just off the top of my head in less than a minute:
1)  It interacts exceptionally well with Lion's Eye Diamond. 
2)  It protects your cards from Duress effects.
3)  It basically allows you to have an extra card in your hand at all times.
4)  Lets face it, games often time don't go perfectly.  You're designed to be a turn 2 or 3 deck, but often times your opponent will be able to do enough to disrupt that plan.  Top assists in getting you back from behind.

I love sensei's Top in storm-based decks.   


I also Highly disagree with Surgical Extraction.  Your deck can cast Extirpate, so why wouldn't you run the card that allows you to strip all copies, and get around Mental Mistep?

[WhiteLotus]

Also agree the deck is too soft to hatebears - which I feel is probably this list's worst matchup.  Will try out your sideboard plan.

If the Deluge is just there for hatebears  (i can't think of any other creature-based deck you want a sweeper for to be able to advance the plan), Virtue's Ruin might be a better fit.  Sometimes that 2 life is the difference when you've been beaten down.  

Maybe not often enough, though.  Just a suggestion.

 I also tend to bring it in against "Hate" decks (anything with null rods and strip effects like merfolk and bug fish) I dunno if it's the right plan, but It's nice virtual CA against decks that don't have a realistic way to put cards in their hands, so it buys plenty of time to break out of a null rod/wasteland lock and can be fired off a ritual if need be. Basically in almost all the matchups where I bring Blightsteel in (apart from shops) Deluge comes in as well.

I disagree with Preordain;  the card isn't very good at what you need it to do.   Trust me, I LOVE the card, but it doesn't FIT well into what TPS is trying to do.

You want a card in that spot?  Try Sensei's Divining Top.  You can do CRAZY tricks with this card. Just off the top of my head in less than a minute:
1)  It interacts exceptionally well with Lion's Eye Diamond.  
2)  It protects your cards from Duress effects.
3)  It basically allows you to have an extra card in your hand at all times.
4)  Lets face it, games often time don't go perfectly.  You're designed to be a turn 2 or 3 deck, but often times your opponent will be able to do enough to disrupt that plan.  Top assists in getting you back from behind.

I love sensei's Top in storm-based decks.  


I also Highly disagree with Surgical Extraction.  Your deck can cast Extirpate, so why wouldn't you run the card that allows you to strip all copies, and get around Mental Mistep?

I've added preordain just recently and it feels pretty underwhelming in here, I only added it because I needed that kind of effect without having a better option.
I'm not really sold on it at all, IMHO this deck really points out how weaker compared to ponder it is. Seeing an extra card in this kinda deck usually is worlds apart. Preordain is very limited in term of options it gives you and that's not at all what a deck like this wants.

I've been thinking about Top, but I didn't try it because my thought process was that in a deck that wants the game to only last about 2 or 3 turns is the top really what I want?
It is true though that you often get stuck in the late game with a bunch of dead cards due to specific synergies. and then your opponent lands a jace and starts fatesealing you and at that point the game is usually over, but if you have a top you can get out of those kind of bad situations.

Also my style of playing this deck is that I'm always preparing for my topdecks, since on average they are pretty strong, but the problem is that the deck is about half mana, half buisness so you can be stuck drawing only mana or only buisness (when you want the opposite) for a lot of turns in a row and a number of times you loose because of this.
 
Top might be just what I've been looking for. It also has relevant synergies with some of the deck's cards like topdeck tutors, Lion's eye diamond, artifact bounces, Xmillion shuffle effects... etc
And last but not least it is a far better mental misstep bait then preordain will ever be, and it's more efficient on mana when you take all the non-blue mana sources of this deck into account.

So I swapped the two preordains for 1 sensei divining top and 1 repeal.

Yeah I dunno why I put surgical extraction, I use to always put extirpate in all my sideboards instead because it was uncounterable, but at some point I don't know why I reverted to Surgical extraction (probably because of Snapcaster mage). It's obviously a much better idea to have Extirpate against dredge or Gushdecks in here.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to test a lot against Dredge with this sideboard plan, so maybe I'm really off. The way I view it, to beat dredge I need to either get rid of cabal therapy so they can't fuck my hand over, or get rid of Bridge to out tempo them.


I guess the deck's main problem right now is that it's pretty terrible in the mid/late game when it can't continue to apply pressure.

[mmcgeach]

You guys make a good point about Top.  I'll try swapping 2 top for 2 preordain, see how that goes.

[Soly]

Let me put it this way:  You need ZERO Cards against Dredge.  You get into Drag-Race mode in that matchup.  And Timetwister is the BEST in that matchup.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Top also works well with necro if you have a lot of mana and life, but need to find a bomb.