Rogues 2k14

[MTGFan]

There was a thread on here from a few years ago about playing Invisible Stalker and Earwig Squad in Vintage. Alas, it is too old to bump, so I am making this thread about a fun Fish-like deck that has surprising power in this format.

Quick question:

Do you think Jester's Cap is a nice effect? Do you think Juggernaut is a solid card? Both of these have been played over the course of Vintage's history. Now tell me, would you play a card if it was a combination of both of these cards and only cost 2B to play? And sometimes even only 1B? AND it was often uncounterable?

Sounds pretty broken, right?



+ =



Of course, people have known about Earwig Squad in Vintage since its printing some six or so years ago. Clearly the card is good. Why hasn't it seen more play?

The answer is: you had to play a bunch of bad creatures (by Vintage standards) to enable the Prowl cost. And without being cast via the Prowl cost, Earwig Squad is not a good card.

But fast forward to 2014. Wizards of the Coast has printed a rainbow-land that makes every creature you play in a tribal deck uncounterable in Cavern of Souls! Not only that, but they have kindly printed a handful of highly playable new creatures that trigger Prowl! You won't confuse these with Tarmogoyf or Snapcaster Mage, but they are nevertheless strong enough not to be complete liabilities, and in some cases, they are quite good:

Invisible Stalker
Thada Adel, Acquisitor
True-Name Nemesis
Notion Thief

Now that we have these four creatures, in addition to a few decent ones that were already around when Squad was printed, we can play Rogues in Vintage without feeling as if our entire creature-base outside of Earwig Squad is abjectly terrible.

Here is a deck that is highly competitive in modern Vintage, and is extremely fun to play:

Rogues 2k14 Decklist:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Off-color Moxen (or 3 Null Rod for more disruption but less explosive starts)
1 Sol Ring

4 Earwig Squad
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Oona's Blackguard
3 Frog-Tosser Banneret
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2 Notion Thief

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

1 Demonic Tutor
4 Thoughtseize

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
2 Disfigure
3 Dismember
4 Steel Sabotage


Explanations of Creature Choices:

Since most of the Vintage auto-includes like Artifact Mana, Force, Recall, and the like need no explanation, I will focus primarily on the Rogues that make up the majority of this deck.

Some of you may be thinking "Frogtosser Banneret? Oona's Blackguard? I thought you said you didn't have to play bad creatures anymore!" Yes, these creatures may look bad at first glance, and many (trust me, MANY) Rogue creatures are absolutely not worth the cardboard they are printed on, but Banneret and Blackguard are deceptively powerful.

1/1s for 2 mana are typically bad by Block Constructed standards, but in Vintage we can excuse power/toughness deficits if the creature a.) disrupts the opponent's game-plan or b.)affects tempo or card advantage in some way. Blackguard turns every Rogue you play after her into a mini Hypnotic Specter, as well as providing a Lord effect that doesn't disappear when she leaves play. Banneret makes everything a turn faster, and his haste ability is highly relevant because attacking quickly enables faster Earwig Squad *and* allows the type of play wherein you have Blackguard in play and then you cast Banneret and opponent is caught off-guard and is forced to discard immediately. Don't get me wrong, these aren't top-10 creatures in the format by any means, but with enough other Rogues, they are good enough to see play in Vintage.

Thada Adel is incredibly good against almost everything. She grants you free Black Lotuses, and will win the game in two swings against a Vault+Key combo deck. Against Shop decks, if she connects she can steal Crucible of Worlds to replay your own Wastelands, and even steal stuff like Tangle Wire in certain situations.

Invisible Stalker and True-Name Nemesis are unblockable, and untargetable creatures that are often uncounterable as well. Stalker is weak in terms of power and toughness, but his job is to enable Earwig Squad through anything and pitch to Force of Will. TNN is a great creature in its own right and offers a trump to a.) resolved Jace and b.) every fatty the opponent can play unless it has trample or flying.

Notion Thief is expensive but single-handedly wins the game if played in response to Gush, Ancestral Recall, Accumulated Knowledge and Jace activations.

Strategy discussion:

The real goal of this deck is simply to land Earwig Squads. A resolved Earwig Squad will often force concessions from a number of singleton-heavy Vintage decks, and if it doesn't force the concession on the spot, it will make winning much more challenging for the opponent, all while that opponent has to deal with a 5/3 or even a 6/4 (with Blackguard pump) attacking them. Taking Blightsteel Colossus, Voltaic Key, and a Jace from a Blue Control player, for example, forces them to win by attacking with Dark Confidants or another Jace they had in hand, all while you have more creatures and untargetable/unblockable creatures. Taking Oath creatures from an Oath player means that they typically can't win through their main strategy. Taking Tendrils of Agony and other singleton win conditions from a combo player means that they can't win unless they play several Burning Wish. Against some decks like Shops or Delver the Cap effect does not hurt nearly as much, BUT being able to take out their biggest creatures gives you an edge as the game progresses, providing you an ability to outclass their smaller creatures with your 5/3, knowing that their chances of drawing a bigger trump are greatly diminished.

The secondary goal of this deck is to use the disruption provided by the other Rogues to generate winning card advantage. Thada-Adel is an example of this, as is Oona's Blackguard, as is Notion Thief. Thada gives positive card advantage, while Blackguard generates card advantage much in the same way that a Hymn would generate card advantage (in reverse). Notion Thief, if resolved, will often lead to a blow-out against a blue opponent. Another facet of this secondary goal is to simply overwhelm the opponent with unblockable and untargetable creatures that generate virtual card advantage by invalidating spot removal. Invisible Stalker and True-Name Nemesis fulfill this goal. Removal is worthless against these creatures unless it is mass removal. Jace is helpless against them. Often an opponent will be doing damage to himself with Crypts and Fetchlands and Tutors and the like, and something like 3 unstoppable damage a turn is enough to win the game, even if the opponent has superior board state.

[hashswag]

Earwig Squad is really nice, but I think it can be prowled more reliably in goblins (it's been the all-star in the goblins deck I've been playing for a while). Anyway, this is a Rogues thread, so this is where I'd want to be:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

4 Earwig Squad
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
4 Rootwater Thief
2 Notion Thief
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Mental Misstep
2 Dismember

1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor


Rootwater Thief replaces Invisible Stalker in this list, since flying with generally get there in the early game and it has its own mini cap effect that can stop a key combo each turn and take over the game against certain decks if left unchecked.

A green splash for Abrupt Decay gives some peace of mind against early Oaths, Vaults, Keys, Crucibles, Bobs, blockers and other random things you can't cap away before they hit the battlefield. 4 missteps protect your prowl-enablers from bolts and the like, while tinker + bsc comes in as a quick wincon.

The green splash and caverns enables Tin Street Hooligan, which could be a 1 or 2 of depending on the amount of shops in the meta.

Mana Crypt is great for enabling turn 2 Earwig, but Sol Ring stunts the plan a little.

Rogues suffer from not having a good one drop. Banneret might be the closest thing, but it's far from ideal. Goblin Vandal is a good one drop, but has little utility outside shops (even then it struggles without removal for blockers) and forces us too much into red. There's a case for Merfolk Spy given its Islandwalk, but it's really bad without earwig.

[MTGFan]

I was playing with Merfolk Spy as the one drop for a while, but then I realized that this deck doesn't really *need* a 1-drop Rogue.

I treat the 4 Thoughtseize, the Sol Ring, Ancestral, and 2 Spell Pierce as the one-drops of this deck. You don't really need to play 1-drops if you can play 2-drops and 3-drops faster with Moxen, or you can simply wait a turn because you have Wasteland, Force, Pierce, and Thoughtseize to slow the opponent down a bit.

Everyone I talk to wants to cut Stalker from the list, but he has surprisingly value. In today's Vintage, there are more creatures than ever, which means more blockers, and more spot removal being played in control decks. The ability to be both unblockable *and* untargetable is surprisingly relevant in Vintage right now.

Also, if you haven't played with Blackguard, you should try her out... the discard ability is really powerful, and the Lord ability is nice. I actually consider her maybe the 2nd most important Rogue in the deck.

Green splash definitely gives more options. If someone were to go that route, it would be wise to maybe build the deck around Edric, Spymaster of Trest and unblockable / islandwalk guys.

[xouman]

Rogues was MY first deck in vintage (I had played a couple of borrowed decks). I agree that blackguard was probably even better than Earwig (that sat in my hand more often than I have wished). It's probably a 4x, the card you will like to play in T1.Then? earwig, of course. I won't play less than 4x, except some circumstances (playing confidants, for example).

Some CC1 rogues? I got one flying rogue, but that's not vintage playable by any means. Prickly boggart, with intimidate? Nah. Rag Dealer? 1/1 with a nice (but expensive) ability. Goblin valdal? It's difficult for a 1/1 to connext, and demands R available also for the ability (so cavern is not enough). Guul Draz Vampire? Interesting, really interesting, but just in a burn approach I'm afraid. Probably the best option if to play duress/tgz/cabal therapy or just dark rituals (that are bad with caverns, btw)

CC2 rogues? Here we have some options, apart from Blackguards:

-Frogtosser Banneret. I'm not sold at all at this one. It's killed by everything, and while the reduction is nice, if not enough for me.
-Bitterblossom. Slow, but a beast with blackguard. With a good counter package (fow, misstep, daze) I can see bitterblossom as a useful card.
-Looter il-kor. For me it's better than Stalker. The cycling ability > hexproof imho.
-Rootwater thief. I played it as 2-3, but I won't play it nowadays. Too many win conditions all around.
-Sygg, River Cutthroat: Same case as Gruul Draz Vampire, I won't play this without bolts.
-Stinkdrinker Bandit: Does not cost 2 itself, but it's his prowl cost. I haven't played it but I imagine it should seal the game pretty quickly.
-Oona's Prowler: helps the aggro plan. I'd play it in a RB version.
-Noggin Whack: again the prowl makes it cost 1B. Seeing 3 cards and discarding 2 (anything) could be meh or awesome, depending on the state of the game. Is it worse than hymm to tourach?
-Nezumi Graverobber: Very mana intensive for a little payoff. at least it does not have to tap.
-Nezumi Shortfang: you can do it in his draw phase, but I hope that tgz's and blackguard abiliy are enough
-Grimoire Thief: bad against decks with singletons, but there are few now. Besides you can always take those singletons, and the opponent wouldn't even notice. You can take oath/golem/tarmo, and counter it later, or just take win conditions. Probably not good enough
-cloak and dagger: never tryed it, i fet it lacked giving haste to make it work.
-Slavering nulls: they are goblins and not rogues, but nice as an early play.

-Dark confidant: which deck playing useas does not want confidant?
-snapcasters: time walk would be one of the best cards in the deck. why don't replay it?

3CC rogues
-Cold eyed selkie. Great with blackguard, even greater with stinkdrinker. or cloak and dagger. I don't understand why it dissapeared from vintage tables, it's totally playable.
-thada adel: bad against mud, since we cannot play it. It resolves vault and tinker troubles in a couple of hits (but a couple of hits could mean T5).
-Edric, Spymaster of Trest: I don't like the idea of fitting a third color, but could be nice against oath or mud. is it better than selkie? You draw even when it has summoning sickness, but you need something else to draw most of the time.


Other
-Notion thief: it's probably not as good here as in other decks, but it could top the mana curve.
-Fortune Thief: interesting rogue, but i don't think it belongs here


Giving those parameters I'd play something like this

defensive package
4 fow
3 misstep
2 daze
1 misdirection
4 tgz
2 null rod

blue stuff
1 ancestral
1 time walk

land package
4 cavern of souls
4 underground sea
1 swamp
2 island
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
1 lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet

That leaves place for just 18 creatures. I don't know if there can be cut something (daze? null rod + wastes?)

4 blackguard
4 earwig
2 bitterblossom
3 looter il kor
3 dark confidant
1 cold eyed selkie
1 stinkdrinker


I don't like very much that list. It lacks demonic, vampiric and key rogues. However I find the mana denial important (our discard improves a lot if they can't play all they want). The mana curve is quite low, and allows things as

T1 land, tgz
T2 land, blackguard
T3 land, earwig


Selkie and stinkdrinker are singletons, no the cards we want at T1, but midgame bombs. Notion thief and True Name Nemesis would fit here too.

Bitterblossom can be substituted by something as banneret or even preordains, that would increase T1 dramatically imho. or add a couple of snapcasters.

What about dark rituals? I'd love them, but in a monoblack deck.

The sideboard:

4 leylines of the void: I have never been a fan of it. sorry.
3 relic of progenitus: I hope the BUG pairing improves with those. feels really hard.
4 grafdigger's cage: dredge feels really bad, even with wastes in the main. oath feels better, as long as we can counter first oath
3 dismember/snuff out: because aggro pairing is bad (another bad pairing?  lol)
3 steel sabotage : i can imagine mud is difficult
2 hurkyl's recall: same as before
0 flusters :  I hope that initial discard + later earwig/blackguard effects are enough


I'm thinking that maybe B2B could get a place here. Sub 2 useas for another island and swamp and you have it. You are improving LOTS of pairings. I'd drop 3 wastes for 1-2 lands and those preordains I said.


Overall this deck would be aimed at combo-control, a pillar not as common nowadays as in past times. The goal is to play a blackguard as soon as possible and then fire rogues to it. In the middle, use discard and countermagic to avoid losing and probably defend blackguard/earwig, but not other creatures. Against aggro, we have flyers and unblockables, try to get CA as quickly as possible and then let bitterblossom and confidants chumblock if needed. Against mud... pray to counter golem/tangle, discard them something and hope than confidant and bitterblossom do the biggest work

[MTGFan]

Some CC1 rogues? I got one flying rogue, but that's not vintage playable by any means. Prickly boggart, with intimidate? Nah. Rag Dealer? 1/1 with a nice (but expensive) ability. Goblin valdal? It's difficult for a 1/1 to connext, and demands R available also for the ability (so cavern is not enough). Guul Draz Vampire? Interesting, really interesting, but just in a burn approach I'm afraid. Probably the best option if to play duress/tgz/cabal therapy or just dark rituals (that are bad with caverns, btw)

The only 1cc Rogue I'd want to play is Merfolk Spy, because it pitches to FoW and has evasion.

But in testing, I've found that 1cc Rogues are unnecessary. A Turn 3 Earwig Squad (after playing a 2cc Rogue on turn 2) is basically just as good as a Turn 2 Earwig Squad. And alot of times, with Moxen, you can play the 2cc Rogue on Turn 1 anyway.

CC2 rogues? Here we have some options, apart from Blackguards:

-Frogtosser Banneret. I'm not sold at all at this one. It's killed by everything, and while the reduction is nice, if not enough for me.

The haste puts it over the top. I've won so many games playtesting this deck by playing some variation of:  Oona's Blackguard for 1B, then immediately follow with Frogtosser for 1B, who is now 2/2, has haste, and forces discard. Additionally, making Earwig and Notion Thief cost only 1B and 1UB respectively is very impactful.

-Bitterblossom. Slow, but a beast with blackguard. With a good counter package (fow, misstep, daze) I can see bitterblossom as a useful card.

Absolutely too slow for Vintage. This deck wants to land answers immediately. Blossom is better for a more control-ish deck.

-Looter il-kor. For me it's better than Stalker. The cycling ability > hexproof imho.

You can definitely make this argument. Looting is sometimes better than hexproof, but the #1 goal of this deck is to land Earwig Squad. I have encountered too many decks in Vintage that have the ability to Swords / Bolt / Decay your first rogue played, and then Earwig either becomes dead in hand for a few more turns. You simply can't have that. Invisible Stalker can only be stopped by mass removal.

-Rootwater thief. I played it as 2-3, but I won't play it nowadays. Too many win conditions all around.
-Sygg, River Cutthroat: Same case as Gruul Draz Vampire, I won't play this without bolts.

Agree.

-Stinkdrinker Bandit: Does not cost 2 itself, but it's his prowl cost. I haven't played it but I imagine it should seal the game pretty quickly.

I started out with 2-3 of these guys in my list, then cut it to 1, and now don't play him at all. The +2/+1 is nice with guys like TNN and Stalker, but in the end, the fact that he isn't disruptive and only pumps guys ruins his chances of being a fixture in a Vintage deck. In Vintage, the actual damage you're doing is almost irrelevant, because your real goal should be to cripple an opponent's game plan. Actually killing with damage is a foregone conclusion once you Earwig Squad him, or empty his hand with Blackguard, or the like. And the 5/3 body on Earwig, and the 3/1 body on TNN are strong enough without needing pump. And of course, if you don't prowl, this guy is a 3B vanilla beater.

-Oona's Prowler: helps the aggro plan. I'd play it in a RB version.

Haven't tested, but the symmetrical nature of her "downside" is too easily made to benefit opponents with full hands.

-Noggin Whack: again the prowl makes it cost 1B. Seeing 3 cards and discarding 2 (anything) could be meh or awesome, depending on the state of the game. Is it worse than hymm to tourach?

Strictly worse than Hymn which is itself strictly worse than Duress/Thoughtseize in Vintage. The only targeted discard I'd ever want to play in Vintage is Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquisition. Individual opponent's cards are too powerful in Vintage to play random discard or worse.

-Nezumi Graverobber: Very mana intensive for a little payoff. at least it does not have to tap.
-Nezumi Shortfang: you can do it in his draw phase, but I hope that tgz's and blackguard abiliy are enough
-Grimoire Thief: bad against decks with singletons, but there are few now. Besides you can always take those singletons, and the opponent wouldn't even notice. You can take oath/golem/tarmo, and counter it later, or just take win conditions. Probably not good enough
-cloak and dagger: never tryed it, i fet it lacked giving haste to make it work.
-Slavering nulls: they are goblins and not rogues, but nice as an early play.

All too weak for Vintage play.

-Dark confidant: which deck playing useas does not want confidant?
-snapcasters: time walk would be one of the best cards in the deck. why don't replay it?

Two really great creatures, but if our #1 goal is to land Earwigs and take advantage of synergies like Blackguard + Rogues... and take advantage of Cavern of Souls, then I would be hesitant to include any non-rogues. But, you could definitely fit one or both in any blue/black list just due to the sheer power of their abilities.

3CC rogues
-Cold eyed selkie. Great with blackguard, even greater with stinkdrinker. or cloak and dagger. I don't understand why it dissapeared from vintage tables, it's totally playable.
-thada adel: bad against mud, since we cannot play it. It resolves vault and tinker troubles in a couple of hits (but a couple of hits could mean T5).
-Edric, Spymaster of Trest: I don't like the idea of fitting a third color, but could be nice against oath or mud. is it better than selkie? You draw even when it has summoning sickness, but you need something else to draw most of the time.

Selkie is solid, but I haven't tested it much.

Thada Adel is great. It's actually good vs. MUD. I've won games in playtesting vs MUD by stealing things like Black Lotus, and even Tangle Wire (when I had more perms in play than them).

Edric is powerful but I haven't tried the green splash yet. Might be very powerful, in fact, if you consider the amount of evasive creatures in this deck.

Other
-Notion thief: it's probably not as good here as in other decks, but it could top the mana curve.
-Fortune Thief: interesting rogue, but i don't think it belongs here

Notion Thief is amazing. And if you play Banneret and Moxen, he comes down reliably and literally just wins the game if you play him in response to Gush, Recall, or Jace activation. I wouldn't play less than 2 Notion Thief in any Rogue list.

[Guli]

Interesting... Where is Shardless Agent?

[WhiteLotus]

Interesting... Where is Shardless Agent?

Yeah that's like the best rogue ever printed. Especially since it's one of the only ones that produces card advantage.
 I think the deck should be bug, that way it has access to convincing creatures such ad edric and shardless agent, as well as better answers (nature's claim, abrupt decay).
Bitterblossom is far better than invisible stalker or frogtosser banneret will ever be especially with cards like oona's body guard and Edric.

Notion thief should not be more than a 1of. maybe an additional one in the sideboard.

Also pestermite is a nice rogue that everyone has missed on, it can be great for tempo, tapping an academy during upkeep for instance. Or stalling a blightsteel colossus since you do not have any answers to a resolved tinker in the main.

Your sideboard is very light on dredge answers, maybe moving 2 grafdigger's to the main could be a way to free up sideboard space and include real dredge hate like yixlid jailer, ravenous trap,...

[xouman]

Shardless agent demands green mana. I never see it in human lists even it's a human itself. If the "main plan" if to play earwig squad with prowl, or take advantadge of blackguard, shardless does little since it costs 3 and hasn't evasion. However with a blackguard it's a 3/3 potentially bringing some other rogue into play. The problem is playing shardless means that missteps/dazes are much worse, and you are opening to 3 colors, instead of two (but getting artifacts/enchantments hate)

[vaughnbros]

I think a 5 (or 4 for that matter) color mana base with full moxen could really open this deck up, most notably letting you play Edric and Tin Street Hooligan.  With all of your evasion Edric will have no problem getting you cards and tin street is an amazingly efficient 2 for 1.  They also improve some other cards that you are not playing.  For example: Edric may make bitterblossom a good choice and tin street hooligan would make goblin vandal a game breaker against shops.

To free up space, I don't think invisible stalker, thada adel, frog tosser are really strong enough to warrant play without something that synergizes extremely well with them.

[MTGFan]

Yeah, I really like the U/B manabase due to its simplicity and the fact that you basically get the best spells in Vintage, but branching out into Green or even 5-color has some intriguing potential.

Now that City of Brass #2 (Mana Confluence) has been printed, you can simply play 4 Caverns, 4 City, and 4 Mana Confluence and enable any color in a deck like this with ease, and still play the Wastes and Strips.

Edric + unblockable guys seems really powerful. Couple that with the card advantage provided by Blackguard, and you just have a ton of card advantage going both ways.

vaughbros: Frogtosser and Stalker are debatable for sure, but Thada Adel is amazing in testing. She literally wins in two swings vs Vault Key combo, and can remove tutor targets, and simply accelerate with opponent's Lotus/Moxen. But being that the 3-mana slot is so clogged in this deck, I'd have to remove her for Edric, Spymaster of Trest if I wanted to go that route.

Preliminary list:


1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

4 Earwig Squad
3 Invisible Stalker
4 Oona's Blackguard
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Tin Street Hooligan
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Notion Thief

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Demonic Tutor


4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
2 Disfigure
3 Dismember
4 Ingot Chewer

[xouman]

Problems I see in the last list:

3 edric are too much. He is a legend, so you can't have 2 in play. besides, 9 of the creatures have evasion, but 16 haven't.

4 goblin vandal would be dead lots of times! It has to connect to make an impact, and against mud it would be really hard to attack unblocked. Against other pairings, vandal would be a 1/1 vanilla lots of times. Tin street hooligan is different and seems ok.

Cutting 1 edric and vandals makes space for bitterblossom/shardless agent.

Pierces are awkward, since you would be tapped all the time in the first turns (if you don't, you are curving bad). tgz is far better here.

the only outs to tarmo are TNN and a big earwig squad (and bitterblossom, if played).

Earwig prowl works with cavern? That would be our best tool against Tezz and Oath, and we have to make sure it gets into play.

[Random Noob]

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

That Manabase is the spirit. I am currently trying this with Shops and an Artificer Tribe.

Good luck.

[WhiteLotus]

25 creatures is way too much imo

I'd see something like
4 bodyguard
4 bitterblossom
3 squad/1 sb
1 thief/1sb
2 nemesis /1 sb
2 edric
1-2 shardless agent
1-2 hooligan/2-3 sb

and maybe some spirit guides to help you jump the curve since you don't have any mana dorks

that also leaves some space for

2 abrupt decay
1 steel sabotage
1 vampiric tutor
4 thoughtseize
1 ancient grudge

[gkraigher]

i've played around with this deck before as well, but my version was only blue/black.  I ran dark ritual, which is what I thought made the deck work.  Also, I think thoughtseize is better than spell pierce in this type of deck.  But that means you won't be running shardless agent.  Shadless agent is really good in legacy, but I don't think it is as good in vintage.  Flipping over a mox with it means you paid 3 mana for a gray orge.  

bitterblossom is a great card, and needs to be somewhere in the 75.  there are slower decks in vintage these day, and bitterblossom shines against them.  even against shops, I would want them.  If not main, then board for sure.  But you also don't want 4 of these, probably just 2.  

You should probably only play 1 edric in the deck as well.  you can make an argument for 2 (again maybe from the board), but you don't want to draw multiples of him ever.  3 mana is still 3 mana.  

Also, with true-name nemesis--I would put 1 in the main deck and 2 in the sideboard.  There are too many match-ups where it will be awful.  Against Dredge, Combo, and Oath that card is downright awful.  I guess it depends on the metagame.  

There are also some decient rogue creatures that remove cards in graveyards.  Like Nezumi Graverobber and rag dealer.  But your best choice is to just run grafdigger's cage in the main deck.  There is no problem doing that since it blanks cards in about 80% of your matchups.   Even against shops, it still stops kulthoda forgemaster.  

Oona's blackguard is the best card in the deck.  By a large margin.  

Invisible stalker is just plain awful.   There is no way you will ever convince me that this card is anything more than a complete POS.

MTGFan, with full playsets of goblin vandal and tin street hulligan, you don't need 4 ingot chewers in the board as well.  You are very fine with those 8 hate cards, and I agree with you, they are a must include on the 5 color deck.  You already get around chalice with cavern of souls.  But do find room for a couple of hurkyl's recalls.  They also stop blightsteel.  

Lastely, I think tutors are pretty bad in these types of decks.  Especially without dark rituals.  I'd rather play ponder, then preordain, then brainstorm over demonic tutor. 

[xouman]

@gkraigher: i pretty much agree with you. could you share a more-or-less 75 of your UB version?

[gkraigher]

My new list would look something this:

4 Oona's Blackguard
1 Rag Dealer
1 True-name nemesis
1 Edric, Spymaster of trust
4 earwig squad
4 goblin vandal
4 tin street hulligan
2 bitterblossom
1 notion thief
2 shardless agent

4 thoughtseize
3 duress
3 null rod
3 grafdigger's cage
1 ancestral recall
1 ponder
1 time walk

1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire

4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 city of brass
4 mana confluence
4 cavern of souls
2 ghost quarter
2 underground sea

sideboard:
2 true-name nemsis
1 notion thief
1 grafdigger's cage
2 hurkyl's recall
1 ravenous trap
2 nihil spellbomb
? swords to plowshares
? nature's claim


The old, archaic deck was:

4 earwig squad
4 frogtosser banneret
4 oona's blackguard
3 bitterblossom
1 thada adall
4 latchkey faerie
4 morsel theft
4 dark ritual
4 thoughseize
4 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 necropotence
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 vampiric tutor
1 sol ring
1 mox sapphire
1 brainstorm
1 mox jet

4 underground sea
fetch lands
basics

I don't remember the exact mana base, but that was part of the problem with the deck.  I don't think I ran any off color fetch lands at the time, and I played a lot of basics.  Cavern of souls also didn't exist.  It's been a while.  

[xouman]

I'd be more biased to that UB list, because I highly appreciate mana stability and I expect half my opponents to play wastes. Not playing fows in a blue list is quite unexpected, but I see that the blue count is low. It's biggest flaw, as many UB lists, is MUD, and I agree that adding red-green helps a lot.

What about a UB faerie-rogue deck. Would it be better?

[MTGFan]

Ok I tested a little bit with the new land and the 4 color list. A few things I observed:

- Vintage is more about creatures than ever before. Nearly every deck not only plays creatures, but has some way to deal with them. Just playing dudes without evasion or any kind of protection is just asking to be owned by the plethora of blockers and removal in this format. This is not early 2000s Vintage. Everyone has a plan for creatures, and/or plays them himself. That brings me to my next point...

- Goblin Vandal is bad. He is a 1/1 with no evasion, so basically ANY creature the opponent plays stops him from doing anything relevant. Out of all the games I played vs Workshops, he didn't destroy a single artifact. Even the most controllish of Workshop builds has the ability to put a blocker in his face. A single Metalworker blanks Vandal!

- Evasion and protection are highly underrated in Vintage right now. Invisible Stalker is a lot better than you think. The ability to never ever be blocked by anyone, and never ever be removed by anything other than mass removal (which is still uncommon in Vintage, whereas spot removal has infiltrated the format in big ways) is really, really useful when your entire deck is predicated upon doing combat damage to the opponent.

- Taking damage repeatedly from lands adds up. In the UB version, the only damage you take from lands is the 1-2 life, on average, you will take from fetchlands. Over the course of a game, I might lose 5+ life from the City of Brass/Mana Confluence manabase. This stuff matters if you want to play Thoughtseize. And if Vintage is turning into a format where decks win more and more often via combat damage, then this kind of manabase is a serious hindrance unless splashing the extra colors adds *a lot*, which in this case, I don't think it does.

The UB version feels distinctly superior for all of the aforementioned points, and I will continue testing that version.

[MaximumCDawg]

So perhaps you maximize the evasive rogues:
1cc Prickly Boggart
2cc Invisible Stalker / Sihana Ledgewalker
3cc True Name Nemesis?

That plan seems to ask for an equipment package really badly.

[MTGFan]

Yeah, I am playing 4 Stalker and 2-3 TNN.

I tried equipment, but this deck is rather mana light and equipment is rather mana-intensive. And equipment is more useful, imho, in a combat-saturated format like Legacy, whereas in Vintage, while there is more of an emphasis on creatures, disruption is still priority #1 in almost every match, whereas in Legacy combat presence usually takes front seat.

But playing something like 1-2 SoFaI or 1-2 SoWaP is certainly not unfeasible. If you go the equipment route, then you probably want to play Bitterblossom as well.

[MaximumCDawg]

Is Stalker getting in there for 1 a turn really good, though?  I get that it turns on your Prowl, but beyond that it seems like a very slow clock.

[MTGFan]

1.) The most important thing in this deck is landing Earwig Squad. In that respect, whether a rogue does 1 damage or 5 damage makes little difference as long as he gets to do damage to the opponent. Thus, a 3/1 Rogue without evasion and/or without protection is usually worse than a 1/1 Rogue that is unblockable and untargetable.

2.) With Oona's Blackguard pump, he can be a 2/2 with a Hypnotic Specter effect, which increases the value of his unblockability and untargetability because a different Rogue might be removed at some point, but he can't be.

3.) It is a slow clock usually, but again, the value in being able to *guarantee* Prowl, and additionally, to pitch to Force of Will, is enough for me to consider it over stronger Rogues without these features (unblockable, hexproof, blue).

[xouman]

One thing I noticed playing this deck, is that opponents let me play and attack with those enablers, and then countered/killed earwig squad and blackguards. Even played with prowl cost, squad can be countered (I learnt in the hard way).

Besides, with just 4 prowl cards (4 earwig), there are lots of chances of drawing 0-1. If you are drawing instead some copies of stalker, you are still far from victory. Yes, it dodges removal, but other creatures are getting it.

I wasn't sold on looter-il-kor, but at least it gives card quality. Do you spend removal on it? well, then I have better threats

[gkraigher]

its a shame that goblin vandal is no good.  this deck is 2 good one drops away from being a legit deck.  

rag dealer is ok, but multiples of him are atrocious against any deck but dredge.  

[MTGFan]

One thing I noticed playing this deck, is that opponents let me play and attack with those enablers, and then countered/killed earwig squad and blackguards. Even played with prowl cost, squad can be countered (I learnt in the hard way).

Besides, with just 4 prowl cards (4 earwig), there are lots of chances of drawing 0-1. If you are drawing instead some copies of stalker, you are still far from victory. Yes, it dodges removal, but other creatures are getting it.

I wasn't sold on looter-il-kor, but at least it gives card quality. Do you spend removal on it? well, then I have better threats

Funny, I seem to never have problems landing Earwig Squad. I play 4 Force of Will, 4 Thoughtseize, and 4 Cavern of Souls. Make sure you play all 12 of those cards and Earwig really isn't that hard to force through.

[MTGFan]

its a shame that goblin vandal is no good.  this deck is 2 good one drops away from being a legit deck.  

rag dealer is ok, but multiples of him are atrocious against any deck but dredge.  

Everyone is fixated on 1-drop rogues... I honestly don't think you need them. The mana curve for the creatures can start at 2.

This isn't bad because:

1.) Full set of Moxen makes 2cc easy to cast early

2.) 4 Thoughtseize and any number of Spell Pierce and Ancestral = perfectly acceptable 1-drops. That's roughly 8-9 one drops.

3.) A Turn 3 Earwig Squad is just as good as a Turn 2 Earwig squad usually

[gkraigher]

That's true, if you consider hand discuption/spell pierce your ideal turn 1 play without a mox.  So yeah, maybe you are right.  maybe you do have enough 1 drops. 

[MTGFan]

I just playtested a little bit with the UB version and am reminded by how powerful it feels. Thada Adel is an All-Star!

I just won a match Stealing Black Lotus + Moxen with Thada vs. a Shops player, and then stealing Vault+Key vs. a Grixis control player.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

can we stop talking about bad 2cc prowl enablers now? Thanks.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/journey-into-nyx/22454-triton-shorestalker

[WhiteLotus]

it seems the 5cc mana base is pretty flawed i agree especially when you start adding bitterblossoms and thoughtseizes to the mix...

I still think you definitely need more than UB colors.
BUG seems nice since it gives you nice rogues (edric + shardless agent, the only ones that will give you card advantage) and nice removal (nature's claim + Abrupt decay). Also the Edric + oona's blackguard + bitterblossom triangle seems pretty strong, at least in a vacuum anyway.