[CNS]Dack Fayden

[Saya]

＋1 is nice,but it requires some assistances.Deep Analysis or Obsessive Search

[xouman]

He is no Jace, but jace was VERY critizised at the beginning, and marked as unplayable by lots of vintage players.

-A 4CC card at sorcery speed that does not win on the spot? I'd play gifts or FoF all day!!
-An overpriced brainstorm!
-Good luck playing it against mud!
-Aggro decks would crush it
-C'mon jace, meet my mana drain and let me win


Nowadays Jace is among the most powerful unrestricted cards in Vintage. Dack Fayden is probably not as good, but I think it's totally playable. The worst thing about it is not being able to protect itself.

Nobody is willing to try some madness aproach? It's a nice bazaar itself, and you don't have to discard 3. Fiery temper is a bolt that dodges misstep, and it's CA with Dack. Also with uba mask is quite funny for sure (you can give the draw 2 discard 2 to opponent and he would lose 2 cards probably), although that's probably in the cute zone.

[diopter]

He is no Jace, but jace was VERY critizised at the beginning, and marked as unplayable by lots of vintage players.

-A 4CC card at sorcery speed that does not win on the spot? I'd play gifts or FoF all day!!
-An overpriced brainstorm!
-Good luck playing it against mud!
-Aggro decks would crush it
-C'mon jace, meet my mana drain and let me win


Nowadays Jace is among the most powerful unrestricted cards in Vintage. Dack Fayden is probably not as good, but I think it's totally playable. The worst thing about it is not being able to protect itself.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39489.0

Indeed. I find it very helpful to review that original thread.

[MaximumCDawg]

That's what I was saying earlier.  The particular combination of Vintage-relevant abilities makes Dack very powerful, and examining each in isolation missed the options and repeated effects this card gives you. 

Heck, if they printed this:

1UR, Enchantment
During your upkeep, draw two cards and discard two cards.

That would probably be playable all by itself in certain decks.

Dack does have less raw power that Jace, though.  He's probably between Liliana and Jace in power level for Vintage, I would say.

[KrauserKrauser]

It's even better than that.

Change it to during your first main phase and you would be closer to the effect.  

This effectively reads.  

During your drawstep, instead of drawing one card, draw three cards and discard two from your hand.

Putting it on the upkeep would just cycle through the deck with no cards in hand.  You always get to draw a card, so you always get the best card of the top 3.

[vaughnbros]

You can't compare him to an enchantment.  An enchantment can't be attacked and killed with creatures.

[gkraigher]

During your drawstep, instead of drawing one card, draw three cards and discard two from your hand.

That's actually not how this card reads.  I have experience playing faithless looting and izzet charm, and if you want the first card you draw in a turn, you will not be activating his ability if you have no cards in hand.  I know this is nuance, but it will come up more than you think.  

Again, this card is not card advantage.  Playing it is one less card you have in your hand, in a deck that is probably running a full set of force of wills.  

[serracollector]

Along side cards like accumulated knowledge and deep analysis you should still be able to keep plenty of cards in hand. Has anyone thought about maybe running anger and wonder with him giving welder and what ever you weld back into play haste and flying? With four dack thirst wheel of fortune intuition and windfall and jar it would not be hard to make an aggressive steel city vault. Hasty flying wormcoil engine for the win?

[diopter]

During your drawstep, instead of drawing one card, draw three cards and discard two from your hand.

That's actually not how this card reads.  I have experience playing faithless looting and izzet charm, and if you want the first card you draw in a turn, you will not be activating his ability if you have no cards in hand.  I know this is nuance, but it will come up more than you think.  

Again, this card is not card advantage.  Playing it is one less card you have in your hand, in a deck that is probably running a full set of force of wills.  

KK is right, that's almost exactly how this card reads.

The +1 ability is not Faithless Looting on turns other than the one you play Dack. It is more like Strategic Planning.

In order for the card to be Faithless Looting, its +1 would have to read "If you played Dack this turn, draw two cards, then discard two cards. Otherwise, discard a card, draw two cards, then discard two cards".

Yeah, it's true that Dack's +1 will never on its own recoup the piece of cardboard that it used to occupy in your hand. That's really missing the forest for the trees IMO.

If you really worry about the CA loss, steal a Mox on the first turn. Then you can afford to select business or control on your future turbo-topdecks.

[bactgudz]

This guy is finally giving me the core of the Chains of Mephistopheles deck I've always wanted to build

[StanleyAugust]

He is no Jace, but jace was VERY critizised at the beginning, and marked as unplayable by lots of vintage players.

-A 4CC card at sorcery speed that does not win on the spot? I'd play gifts or FoF all day!!
-An overpriced brainstorm!
-Good luck playing it against mud!
-Aggro decks would crush it
-C'mon jace, meet my mana drain and let me win


Nowadays Jace is among the most powerful unrestricted cards in Vintage. Dack Fayden is probably not as good, but I think it's totally playable. The worst thing about it is not being able to protect itself.

Nobody is willing to try some madness aproach? It's a nice bazaar itself, and you don't have to discard 3. Fiery temper is a bolt that dodges misstep, and it's CA with Dack. Also with uba mask is quite funny for sure (you can give the draw 2 discard 2 to opponent and he would lose 2 cards probably), although that's probably in the cute zone.

Yes, that is quite hilarious. Honestly, it was easy to see that Jace is very good. Some of the comments on Jace when he was released make me question the users Vintage knowledge and skill. Look at this:

Vegeta2711:

Four mana and doesn't win the game or even put you in a direct position to win the game. Unplayable in Vintage.

meadbert:

I would rather have Sower of Temptation. 

kkoie:

For vintage, I think the card is a waste of time.

honestabe:

If he gets play at all, it'll probably be some janky-ass mono blue build.  anything else, why not just play Fof/Gifts/Tezzeret?

BruiZar:

My final conclusion is that this guy isn't going to be good enough.

Grand Inquisitor:

Sorry to be the heavy on this one kids, but the answer is a resounding No.

TheShop:

I can't believe that anyone would consider this card instead of FoF:

Hilarious.

[boggyb]

Yes, that is quite hilarious. Honestly, it was easy to see that Jace is very good. Some of the comments on Jace when he was released make me question the users Vintage knowledge and skill.

Eh, hindsight's 20/20 and all. The fact is, Planeswalker value is very difficult to estimate, because Planeswalkers are so complex -- they're at least four or five times as complex as any other type of card. They're also very easy to underestimate, because the nerdy mind likes to compartmentalize effects rather than appreciate a gestalt of same, which is a Planeswalker's great strength. It's also easy to underestimate the value of card advantage and tempo, and we forget that every Planeswalker you resolve is AT LEAST an automatic 2-for-1 and represents a huge tempo boost.

[StanleyAugust]

Yes, that is quite hilarious. Honestly, it was easy to see that Jace is very good. Some of the comments on Jace when he was released make me question the users Vintage knowledge and skill.

Eh, hindsight's 20/20 and all. The fact is, Planeswalker value is very difficult to estimate, because Planeswalkers are so complex -- they're at least four or five times as complex as any other type of card. They're also very easy to underestimate, because the nerdy mind likes to compartmentalize effects rather than appreciate a gestalt of same, which is a Planeswalker's great strength. It's also easy to underestimate the value of card advantage and tempo, and we forget that every Planeswalker you resolve is AT LEAST an automatic 2-for-1 and represents a huge tempo boost.

How is Dack at least an automatic 2-for-1?

[Meddling Mike]

Yes, that is quite hilarious. Honestly, it was easy to see that Jace is very good. Some of the comments on Jace when he was released make me question the users Vintage knowledge and skill.

Eh, hindsight's 20/20 and all. The fact is, Planeswalker value is very difficult to estimate, because Planeswalkers are so complex -- they're at least four or five times as complex as any other type of card. They're also very easy to underestimate, because the nerdy mind likes to compartmentalize effects rather than appreciate a gestalt of same, which is a Planeswalker's great strength. It's also easy to underestimate the value of card advantage and tempo, and we forget that every Planeswalker you resolve is AT LEAST an automatic 2-for-1 and represents a huge tempo boost.

I agree. I think people need to keep in mind that Planeswalkers were still a relatively new concept at this point for vintage. Up until Jace, Tezzeret, the Seeker was the only planeswalker to see consistent vintage play. The arguments being put forth seemed halfway reasonable at the time. There were so few cards as versatile as Jace out there that it was difficult to see his value as a total package. Tezzeret cost extra and would set you up to win the game next turn if he resolved. We had also recently been coming off an era that revolved around resolving a 4cc instant blue spell that would win you the game if it resolved and you untapped. We had Flash decks that did the same thing with a 2cc spell. Coming from that mindset it's not hard to see where these people were coming from. Jace looked slow and cumbersome. People couldn't see the value of his +2 in a top deck war. If we all knew what a bomb he was going to be we would've gone out and bought every one we could find and retired early.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Speaking of, Dack is already selling out on Ebay at $40-50 each copy.  I see them listed as BIN for $100 by the end of the day if they keep being sold as fast as they're posted.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Eh, hindsight's 20/20 and all. The fact is, Planeswalker value is very difficult to estimate, because Planeswalkers are so complex -- they're at least four or five times as complex as any other type of card. They're also very easy to underestimate, because the nerdy mind likes to compartmentalize effects rather than appreciate a gestalt of same, which is a Planeswalker's great strength. It's also easy to underestimate the value of card advantage and tempo, and we forget that every Planeswalker you resolve is AT LEAST an automatic 2-for-1 and represents a huge tempo boost.

Not that we're keeping score, but some folks are better at evaluating new cards than others. Ie. Smennen and Demars are usually overcautious but seldom far off the mark.

Dack will see play and anyone paying that much for him is a fool. This set will put more than a few cards into Vintage masters and Dack is only one of them.

[gkraigher]

The White Dragon,

I am willing to short sell any amount of these at $50.  I'll just use the proceeds to by booster boxes.  Thanks.  

Or I'll just buy them from Starcitygames for $20 and have them shipped directly to your address.

[Demagoguery]

Speaking of, Dack is already selling out on Ebay at $40-50 each copy.  I see them listed as BIN for $100 by the end of the day if they keep being sold as fast as they're posted.

Isn't this the case for most lower cost Planeswalkers? I remember Liliana 2.0 and the new Chandra starting around the same before dropping much lower for a period of time. Additionally, even the new Ajani is like 25$ BIN currently.

I pre-order price tends to be pretty high on new Planeswalkers.

[brianpk80]

I still think the card has the same overall value as Jace because what it sacrifices in universal immediate card quantity advantage is offset by the fact that he costs 1 less.  I also think there will be decks specifically designed to accommodate Dack where his Looting utility can yield more value than a Brainstorm effect.   

[AmbivalentDuck]

The main downside to Dack is Abrupt Decay. Costing one less is actually a liability.

[gkraigher]

faithless looting and careful study are not played in vintage because they are not good enough.  I don't know how a 3 CC one will all of a sudden enable a deck for this effect.

His best ability is the steal artifact effect, that should create some sort of advantage---although stealing someones mox or sol ring seems extremely overcost for 3 mana.  But hey, it could be right under different circumstances, and as a planeswalker the card does have flexibility.  I think his +1 ability is a throw in, and it does give you card selection, but I don't see how you can build a deck around this effect when there are already cheaper ways of doing this (looting and study) which are not played.    

So you have to ask yourself, is a 3 mana card that steals 1 artifact and has an effect similar to cycling good enough to build a vintage deck around?  Or is this card actually just a really good sideboard card for the combo/control mirror and fine against shops.  My vote is for the latter. 

[diopter]

faithless looting and careful study are not played in vintage because they are not good enough.  I don't know how a 3 CC one will all of a sudden enable a deck for this effect.

His best ability is the steal artifact effect, that should create at least a 2 for 1 advantage.  His +1 is a throw in for card selection, not an enabler for a deck. 

So you have to ask yourself, is a 3 mana card that steals 1 artifact and has an effect similar to cycling good enough to build a vintage deck around?

Dack is neither Faithless Looting, CarefulSstudy, nor cycling.

[gkraigher]

If you +1 him, you have a permanent on the board and you get to cycle 2 cards.  You paid 3 mana to do this.  

His ultimate is worthless, so unlike Liliana or Jace, you actually don't even have to attack Dack Fayden at all.  That is actually his biggest flaw, is that many decks won't even care that he is in play and just play though him. 

[diopter]

If you +1 him, you have a permanent on the board and you get to cycle 2 cards.  You paid 3 mana to do this.

This is the same logic that led many to believe that Jace was a four mana Brainstorm. Clearly that was wrong.

I suggest you redo your analysis of this card, maybe do a bit of two-fisted testing with Grixis shells. Dack is really good.

HINT: try to aggressively Dack into continuous business instead of control components. You're semi protected from blowout plays by the -2.

[brianpk80]

There's a difference between a burst effect like Careful Study and a Planeswalker that replicates it every turn.  Also, the so-called overcosted Steal Artifact (which is 1 less in CMC) is a bona fide 3 for 1.  For years, Magus of the Unseen has been sporadically appearing in top performing maindecks and sideboards.  It's possible that the pilots are onto something...

[diopter]

By the by that's a Dack weakness: unlike Jace, you can't develop both aggro and control positions the way you can with Jace.

However this is somewhat (not totally) mitigated by the -2 that allows you to Dack away mana and protects you from most Tinker/TV lines of play.

(Yeah they could drop KeyVault on the same turn or Tinker+Time Walk but that's less common especially if you are continually throwing Jaces, Gushes or restricted action at them).

And obviously the 3cmc and the cross-utility gained from stealing Golems etc. is what pushes it from playable to "really playable".

[boggyb]

faithless looting and careful study are not played in vintage because they are not good enough.  I don't know how a 3 CC one will all of a sudden enable a deck for this effect.

His best ability is the steal artifact effect, that should create some sort of advantage---although stealing someones mox or sol ring seems extremely overcost for 3 mana.  But hey, it could be right under different circumstances, and as a planeswalker the card does have flexibility.  I think his +1 ability is a throw in, and it does give you card selection, but I don't see how you can build a deck around this effect when there are already cheaper ways of doing this (looting and study) which are not played.    

So you have to ask yourself, is a 3 mana card that steals 1 artifact and has an effect similar to cycling good enough to build a vintage deck around?  Or is this card actually just a really good sideboard card for the combo/control mirror and fine against shops.  My vote is for the latter. 

This is exactly the wrong way to think about Planeswalkers.

Liliana is very good. Is 3 mana to make each player discard a card good? No. Is 3 mana to Chainer's Edict good? No. Then why is she good? It's (1) the gestalt of the two, plus the threat of the ultimate, (2) the repeatable advantage, i.e. the tempo, and (3) the fact that she's a permanent on board that distracts your opponent's play.

It's Yes And. Yes And. This And That. It is literally the "And" that is good. The FACT of those abilities being SIMULTANEOUSLY available to you. When taken from a broader perspective, in different states in different situations, she is very good. Any of her abilities on their lonesome is terrible. Funny.


So is Careful Study good? No. Are three Careful Studies good? Yes! Very good. Especially if you build your deck to accommodate this possibility. Especially if those Studies can net you one or two artifacts. Especially if those Studies draw you towards a cheated-up number of Fire // Ices and Pyroblasts that make his ultimate a game-winner.

Yes And Yes And Yes, he is a good card. Or can be. We'll see.

[gkraigher]

Magus of the Unseen was good at untapping and stealing an opponents time vault, in a world where few players packed lightning bolt.  This card can steal time vault, on your turn, and it's still tapped.  

Diopter, I nailed it on Jace.  I never had any problems with him, and it's timestamped.  


Liliana has to be dealt with or you will eventually lose the game to her ultimate.  Her minus -2 protects her.  Her +1 is parity both players, and if you go hellbent becomes CA.

Dack has no ultimate and therefore doesn't even need to be dealt with.  His -2 only protects him against 1 deck in vintage, shops.  His +1 does stuff, but can never be CA without help.  

[diopter]

Diopter, I nailed it on Jace.  I never had any problems with him, and it's timestamped.  

---
Dack has no ultimate and therefore doesn't even need to be dealt with.  His -2 only protects him against 1 deck in vintage, shops.  His +1 does stuff, but can never be CA without help. 

You "nailed it" in the sense that you predicted Jace would dominate vintage, and it has. But our discussion here suggests to me that your analysis of these planeswalkers is overly simplistic.

For instance you reference CA as if that is a goal in and itself. However Vintage control decks only use CA engines as a means to simultaenously assemble mana, disrupt opposing game plans and execute one's own game plan.

Dack can do all of these things with its first two abilities. The lack of an ultimate ability is meaningless in most contexts, he can still help you win a lot of games.

Two more beats of the CA drum:
- Demonic Tutor is not CA on its own and yet it is probably a top 5 restricted card (absent Lotus/Moxen). It is extremely powerful.
- Many Workshop decks have few CA engines. They do enjoy a mana advantage, play spells that overwhelmingly attack opposing mana which then nullifies both attack and defense, and enjoy virtual advantage through cards like Smokestack and Crucible.

[fsecco]

I think if you want to compare Dack to an existing planeswalker it should be Liliana.

I mean, Tezz and Jace can win the game on their own by ultimating or tutoring. They have "inevitability" if you don't take them out. Also, both of them can gain loyalty at no expense. Jace's +2 can ALWAYS be activated, Tezz +1 too.

Liliana and Dack are different. Their ultimates don't win games, and their +1 depend a lot on the game state in order to be activated in your advantage. I've had a lot of Liliana situations on Legacy where I didn't need the -2 that turn, but also couldn't +1 because it would screw me. So she would stay a few turns on the table without me activating any of her's ability. Dack probably will see a lot of that too.

The main issue with Dack, for me, is that his ultimate is completely irrelevant as far as I know. Liliana's ultimate won't win games alone (like Jace's), but will bend the game towards you considerably. Dack's ultimate is just... useless. If it read "spells and abilities" it could be nice, since maybe you could steal artifacts with Voltaic Key and all.

Now, is Library of Leng something that could be considered good with Dack? I mean, it IS good, but could it be playable? As a 1-of maybe? Trinket Mage finds it, maybe that's relevant.