[CNS]Dack Fayden

[mmcgeach]

I think there's a good interaction between +1 targetting the opponent and notion thief. Also decks that run notion thief might want the extra card selection to smooth out their threats and provide a draw engine.

[mmcgeach]

About the ultimate.

Rules clarification: Let's say I have cyclonic rift and I play it for two targeting my opponent's jace. The Dack emblem resolves and I steal the jace. Then cyclonic rift goes to resolve, but it no longer targets a permanent I don't control... so jace is an illegal target, cyclonic rift has no legal targets and it fizzles. Right?

Hypothetically, what spell is Game Over with the Dack emblem? Hidden strings? That steals 4 permanents the first turn and 2 more every subsequent turn, right?

[KrauserKrauser]

Correct, Cylonic Rift is Take Possession for 2 with the emblem.  Overloading the Rift stops the interaction and just bounces everything.

Hidden Strings is good.  Mind Games is a Control magic for most things.  Gigadrowse with the emblem is U: Gain control of target permanent with replicate.

[WhiteLotus]

Beyond that, how did you arrive at the conclusions that 2 Brainstorms are worth this much and 2 Careful Study is not worth that much?

2 brainstorms and 1 fetchland = access to 6 new cards and you draw 2 of them.  see 6 and draw 2 is pretty good for 4 mana.  You also get to replace 4 cards, JUST LIKE DACK!

faithless looting and playing it's flashback ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be played in vintage, because if it was people would play faithless looting.  I guess Dack allows you to convert 2 colorless mana into a 1 blue and save 1 mana.  


People keep bringing up welder, which cracks me up.  Welder got phased out of vintage because it is a graveyard deck and because it lost an amazing card in thirst for knowledge.  But it's main problem is still that it is a graveyard deck, and since dredge is a thing, people pack huge amounts of hate for graveyard strategies.  But by all means, playtest in a vacuum away.

The test is when this card goes to a tournament with > 30 players attending with a diverse metafield.  

Why are you so insistent on painting dack as a useless pwalker, when everyone else agrees that if not format warping he's at least playable? 

Comparing him to faithless looting/careful study is completely besides the point. So is comparing him to Jace or Tezz.
This guy is meant to be an engine with strong synergies like Bolas, not a guy that wins the game the following the turn or takes control over the game. This guy is much more about synergy then any other pwalkers Imo we've only started scratching the surface of his potential.

He will work nicely with Welder obviously. But he could be good in landstill as well to turn card advantage into card quality, fit the mana denial plan by stealing moxen/ sol rings, without even starting to reach his full potential such as discarding lands to crucible = Card advantage or stealing a bot/ time vault.

I don't see why it bothers you if people want to have fun playing him with strategies in which he fits well. If you find him to be that bad just be happy that you'll be able to "crush" people who will try him.

Of course his ultimate isn't very interesting but let's be honest how often do you ultimate Jace to win the game.

[fsecco]

Hypothetically, what spell is Game Over with the Dack emblem? Hidden strings? That steals 4 permanents the first turn and 2 more every subsequent turn, right?

The only good interaction I can think of is to Pyroblast a non-blue permanent or Hydroblast a non-red permanent. Pyro should be easy to do since it's a card very present in Vintage.

It's not game over though.

[Protoaddict]

People need to stop comparing him to other planeswalkers. Just because it is his card type does not mean he fills the same role. Its like comparing lightning bolt to force of will because they are both instants. They don't do the same thing nor are they supposed to, so why compare them? I mean why don't we just ask ourselves which is better, Tarmogoyf or Dark confidant. By this threads logic Confidant is obviously superior because he nets you more cards so we should obviously never use Tarmogoyf.

[Samoht]

People need to stop comparing him to other planeswalkers. Just because it is his card type does not mean he fills the same role. Its like comparing lightning bolt to force of will because they are both instants. They don't do the same thing nor are they supposed to, so why compare them? I mean why don't we just ask ourselves which is better, Tarmogoyf or Dark confidant. By this threads logic Confidant is obviously superior because he nets you more cards so we should obviously never use Tarmogoyf.

Bob vs Goyf is a real bad example in Vintage, based on results.

[Protoaddict]

Sol ring Vs Voltaic Key
Yawgmoths will VS Thoughtsizes
Taiga VS Tolarian academy


All get the point across. Comparing Dack to all other planeswalkers is dumb because his card type is not what he does, it does not define him.

[Meddling Mike]

People keep bringing up welder, which cracks me up.  Welder got phased out of vintage because it is a graveyard deck and because it lost an amazing card in thirst for knowledge.  But it's main problem is still that it is a graveyard deck, and since dredge is a thing, people pack huge amounts of hate for graveyard strategies.  But by all means, playtest in a vacuum away.  

You can't write off Control Slaver as being a 1-trick pony like Dredge. It's capable of other routes to victory and game plans that aren't practical for Dredge. It's far more flexible and resilient to hate.

[The Atog Lord]

People keep bringing up welder, which cracks me up.  Welder got phased out of vintage because it is a graveyard deck and because it lost an amazing card in thirst for knowledge.  But it's main problem is still that it is a graveyard deck, and since dredge is a thing, people pack huge amounts of hate for graveyard strategies. 

Control Slaver was pushed out because Thirst for Knowledge got the axe. It's that simple. For a long time, Vintage Blue decks have struggled to keep pace with Workshop decks, and have generally been in a very poor position against Workshop when on the draw. I think that a Control Slaver deck can be created that can be stronger against Workshop decks that most of the other viable Blue decks at the moment. Yes, this all needs testing, but when I find some time, I intend to do so.

[fsecco]

Yeah, it's boring how in every spoiler topic people treat Magic like it is some kind of Trump game. "This dies to that". "But that dies to this". "They are all worse than the TOP TRUMP!"

[hashswag]

faithless looting and playing it's flashback ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be played in vintage, because if it was people would play faithless looting.  I guess Dack allows you to convert 2 colorless mana into a 1 blue and save 1 mana.  

Triple Reach through Mists and double Painful Memories on yourself ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be played in vintage, because if it was people would play triple Reach through Mists and double Painful Memories. I guess Jace allows you to save 1 blue and 1 black mana.

[diopter]

Think we need to stop ganging up on Gkraigher. He has his views, I don't think he's right, let's move on to something more productive.

I've thought a lot about Dack in your average Grixis control deck that doesn't specifically try to abuse the +1 graveyard interaction. Speculate on what might be needed to make that part work. Welder shell (and which bots)? Deep Analysis? Fast Yawg Will?

[hashswag]

This isn't backed up by any testing or anything, but I get the feeling that if you start adding cards that have synergy with the graveyard aspect of things, you might end up losing the card quality benefit that Dack provides by letting you bin anything you don't need at the moment, when compared to just running Dack alongside other good cards. I think if regular Grixis control wants to run Dack, they probably want to cut 1 Jace and maybe 1 other card for 1-2 Dack and not worry about changing the rest of the deck.

[Stormanimagus]

This isn't backed up by any testing or anything, but I get the feeling that if you start adding cards that have synergy with the graveyard aspect of things, you might end up losing the card quality benefit that Dack provides by letting you bin anything you don't need at the moment, when compared to just running Dack alongside other good cards. I think if regular Grixis control wants to run Dack, they probably want to cut 1 Jace and maybe 1 other card for 1-2 Dack and not worry about changing the rest of the deck.

I disagree. You want to build around this guy at least a bit. I would run him in a Welder deck sporting TV/Key + something like a package of: 1 BSC, 1 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Myr Battlesphere or something along those lines. I could even see running memory jar in such a list. The other card I'd definitely include would be 1-3 Baleful Strix between the Main and SB. That card is so helpful vs. Aggro and gives some protection for Dack. I'd run Fire/Ice x2 for utility and to help against little men as well as a cool combo with the ultimate. I'd run 1-2 Pyroblast somewhere in the 75 to also abuse the ultimate. I think such a deck deserves testing, and testing with 4x Dack (I like to test 4x of such cards to see if they truly do help MAKE the deck what it is). I would also run 2-3 Jace in this list and 0 bob as Dack is kinda your new bob.

Just my 2-cents

-Storm

[diopter]

This isn't backed up by any testing or anything, but I get the feeling that if you start adding cards that have synergy with the graveyard aspect of things, you might end up losing the card quality benefit that Dack provides by letting you bin anything you don't need at the moment, when compared to just running Dack alongside other good cards. I think if regular Grixis control wants to run Dack, they probably want to cut 1 Jace and maybe 1 other card for 1-2 Dack and not worry about changing the rest of the deck.

My testing suggests this is a good starting point too. "Pick the best of the next 3 topdecks" is extremely strong.

The only synergistic piece that might be worth it is Welder, since you can actually blow your opponent out with it. Upon some reflection, value plays like Deep Analysis are probably going to be terrible.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Control Slaver was pushed out because Thirst for Knowledge got the axe. It's that simple.

Yes, Slaver is more resilient than Dredge, but Mental Misstep has also been printed since that time and lots of other metagame shifts, like increased slots for creature removal.

To me the basic question is how strong are the basic effects compared to the level of interdependence (Welder, AK, etc) it forces on deck design.

This is a really hard thing to speculate on.  My comment above about JTMS is good evidence.  I tested and then T4'd an event with JTMS in my list and STILL didn't think it was that good...and I was totally wrong.

[vaughnbros]

All get the point across. Comparing Dack to all other planeswalkers is dumb because his card type is not what he does, it does not define him.

Except that all planeswalkers have two very big things in common:
1. They all gain you more value the longer they stay on the table.
2. They are all near the top of your mana curve.

What he should be compared to what people are going to cut in order to play him.  I'd imagine he is going to be taking the place of other cards that serve the same function as him.  So he would have to take the place of either game ending shops hate cards, like Viashino Heretic/Energy Flux/Devout Wit, but since I don't think any one really plays these cards main deck its far more likely he has to take the place of a planewalker/late game draw spell, like Tezz/Ral/Jace/FoF/Gifts/Thirst.  I think this likely depends on what particular archetype is considering playing him.

Dack is very metagame dependent and I think people are missing that point (those that are being overly critical as well as those proclaiming him the greatest thing since Jace).  Its simple:
If you play against tinker and workshops all day hes going to be great.
If you play against dredge, fish, and combo all day hes not going to be great.
If you play against bomberman and landstill he will be ok.
The problem with expecting him to revolutionize welder decks is those decks typically already fared pretty well against workshops and tinker.

[hashswag]

This isn't backed up by any testing or anything, but I get the feeling that if you start adding cards that have synergy with the graveyard aspect of things, you might end up losing the card quality benefit that Dack provides by letting you bin anything you don't need at the moment, when compared to just running Dack alongside other good cards. I think if regular Grixis control wants to run Dack, they probably want to cut 1 Jace and maybe 1 other card for 1-2 Dack and not worry about changing the rest of the deck.

I disagree. You want to build around this guy at least a bit. I would run him in a Welder deck sporting TV/Key + something like a package of: 1 BSC, 1 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Myr Battlesphere or something along those lines. I could even see running memory jar in such a list. The other card I'd definitely include would be 1-3 Baleful Strix between the Main and SB. That card is so helpful vs. Aggro and gives some protection for Dack. I'd run Fire/Ice x2 for utility and to help against little men as well as a cool combo with the ultimate. I'd run 1-2 Pyroblast somewhere in the 75 to also abuse the ultimate. I think such a deck deserves testing, and testing with 4x Dack (I like to test 4x of such cards to see if they truly do help MAKE the deck what it is). I would also run 2-3 Jace in this list and 0 bob as Dack is kinda your new bob.

Just my 2-cents

-Storm

Academy Ruins could be a good shout, too.

[fsecco]

I know nobody commented on this (maybe it got lost amongst lots of posts here): what do you think about Dack + Library of Leng (probably with Trinket Mage to fetch it)?

[MaximumCDawg]

Isnt putting two back on top just plain worse than putting them in the yard?

[vaughnbros]

Isnt putting two back on top just plain worse than putting them in the yard?

No.  Many times I'll put back my land drop for the next turn with Jace so I can have more options of spells to cast during the course of my opponents turn.  Also you could end up discarding cards that you may want later in the game, but not early game.  For instance an extra volc in my hand that I may need to fetch out later.  Or perhaps board sweeper that I don't think I need at the start of the game, but then want to tutor it later.  As well as the non trivial feeding your opponents tarmogoyfs, scavenging oozes and deathrites by discarding instead of putting the cards back.  Hiding cards from your opponents memory jar, or duress.  The list goes on...

[desolutionist]

Hey Jeff!  I don't think dredge being a thing makes it bad to play an alternative graveyard strategy.  The thing about dredge is that it pretty much has to win through the graveyard, but decks like Slaver can just cast Tinker or assemble Vault+Key.  If I were to start playing with this card, I'd just take a Gush deck and -1 Ancient Grudge +1 Dack.  You can tutor for it against workshops, it's strong in the mirror; then probably sideboard it out against Fish/Dredge.

[fsecco]

Isnt putting two back on top just plain worse than putting them in the yard?

With Library of Leng, you can choose. So it makes +1 with Dack something you can do every turn, even if you have only awesome cards in hand, without fear of discarding or losing nice cards. It would be something like "scry 2" every turn, but better - since you can actually draw those cards.

I like the interaction a lot. But it remains to be seen if it's actually worth it.

[Protoaddict]

I don't think Library is worth it at the cost of a card with little other utility for the deck. I think most decks that play dack will be geared around either wanting to discard cards or at least being ok with it. Simply there are other better cards to combo with dack that have a bit more utility on there own, like Crucible of worlds.

[xouman]

I agree that library of leng does not look appealing at all. Just would be nice playing miracles, or in a meta full of duress/tgz. It can be situationally good, but if I have to play cards nice with Dack, I'll prefer fiery temper or deep analysis. But gushes could be even better. AK's also would perform nice, and snapcasters, crucible, grudges... there are lots of cards with synergy.

[StanleyAugust]

Library of Leng? Are you guys serious? I mean, even if Dack turns out to be the nuts, I'll be very happy facing him if my opponent plays worthless cards like Library of Leng.

[brianpk80]

Seeing it in playtesting, it looks like it may be at its strongest in a mana denial context.  Losing Moxen makes it very difficult to break out of Thalia's soft lock for instance.  Guli should look into this card for his RUW Prison build, which already contains Welders. 

[mmcgeach]

Seeing it in playtesting, it looks like it may be at its strongest in a mana denial context.  Losing Moxen makes it very difficult to break out of Thalia's soft lock for instance.  Guli should look into this card for his RUW Prison build, which already contains Welders. 

I'd think one if those humans builds with Notion Thief would be ideal.

[Saya]

Seeing it in playtesting, it looks like it may be at its strongest in a mana denial context.  Losing Moxen makes it very difficult to break out of Thalia's soft lock for instance.  Guli should look into this card for his RUW Prison build, which already contains Welders. 

And cracking a land with wasteland which was discarded by Dack and played through Crucible of Worlds,like Stax used to do...