[CNS]Dack Fayden

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I personally will be running him after the 4th jace...potentially jace #5, 6, and maybe 7...He doesn't replace jace or fight for a spot on the mana curve since he is only 3 mana. The 3 cmc is what makes him more relevant.

[boggyb]

The dumbest but also one of the most important reasons he'll end up seeing play is just that he is a powerful blue card that costs 3. There are very few cards in Vintage that cost that amount that see play that aren't supposed to just win you the game on the spot.

[fsecco]

it's certainly a fine card vs shops, but it's not like you play him and it's game over against them.  Far from it.  It doesn't not win the game like other cards in your deck could.  

Is there a card that, once played, wins the game on the spot against MUD? I could think of the restricted Tinker, and that's it. Maybe Viashino Heretic, but that's far from useful in other matchups as Dack is. The only other that comes to mind is Hurkyl's Recall.

[Protoaddict]

it's certainly a fine card vs shops, but it's not like you play him and it's game over against them.  Far from it.  It doesn't not win the game like other cards in your deck could.  

Is there a card that, once played, wins the game on the spot against MUD? I could think of the restricted Tinker, and that's it. Maybe Viashino Heretic, but that's far from useful in other matchups as Dack is. The only other that comes to mind is Hurkyl's Recall.

Aura of silence?

[fsecco]

Aura is double W to cast and, honestly, won't keep MUD from playing spells just because now they cost 2 more for them. Also won't, depending on the board stated, win as soon as it hits (or win at all). Ancient Grudge is better, for example.

[Guli]

it's certainly a fine card vs shops, but it's not like you play him and it's game over against them.  Far from it.  It doesn't not win the game like other cards in your deck could.  

Is there a card that, once played, wins the game on the spot against MUD? I could think of the restricted Tinker, and that's it. Maybe Viashino Heretic, but that's far from useful in other matchups as Dack is. The only other that comes to mind is Hurkyl's Recall.

Energy Flux is in most cases brutal.

[fsecco]

Energy Flux is nice. Forgot about it. But... Dack is probably a maindeck card. That's something.

[JPettie]

it's certainly a fine card vs shops, but it's not like you play him and it's game over against them.  Far from it.  It doesn't not win the game like other cards in your deck could.  

Is there a card that, once played, wins the game on the spot against MUD? I could think of the restricted Tinker, and that's it. Maybe Viashino Heretic, but that's far from useful in other matchups as Dack is. The only other that comes to mind is Hurkyl's Recall.

Energy Flux is in most cases brutal.

Gotta say, I prefer Pulverize, shit is dope, especially when you have Blood Moon out and sac two City of Traitors.

[gkraigher]

energy flux, true-name nemesis, serenity, trygon predator, hurkyl's recall, rebuild, and kataki come to mind off the top of my head as cards I fear seeing my opponent's play.  

This card is maybe an undercost control magic against shops, that has relevant effects against non-creature based decks in vintage...which are becoming a smaller and smaller bread.  The card does little to nothing against Oath, Dredge, Delver, Merfolk, Landstill, Combo, Doomsday, hate bears, ...  Truth be told, it might not be undercost at all considering it is 2 colors.  The more basics you play that are not islands or the more duals you play, either way it has a positive impact for shops players.  Seriously, you want to run mountains--have at it hoss.  

Its +1 to draw two cards, discard two cards is not card advantage.  Say it with me, this is not card advantage.  Jace's brainstrom is card advantage.  Chandra's free card is card advantage.  This is card selection.  Now, Dack does give you card advantage when you steal an artifact with it.  But you have to be kidding me if you think a 3 CC card in vintage that steals an opponent's mox is playable.  

Let's say have a starting hand with Mox, Mox, Land, Dack, Force of Will, another blue card, and any card of your choice that isn't ancestral recall or tinker.  First turn you play Dack, do you even plus 1 him?  

I think the only situation where this card shines is playing it the turn after your opponent tinkers for blightsteel.  But Jace is a fine answer there too.  

[MaximumCDawg]

Prospero, your objections to Dack Fayden actually sound a lot like the original objections to Jace.  Now, I know people say that all the time about planeswalkers, but the criticism is more apt here than in most cases.  Dack has two abilities that are very Vintage relevant.  Sure, no one plays Careful Study, but if that card said: "Choose one: Draw 2, discard 2; or take control of target artifact" it would be a four of in many, man lists. 

Dack isn't as GOOD as Jace because he only has two abilities, not three, but the fact that he can fill two very different and very useful roles makes him powerful in the same way as Jace.

[boggyb]

Let's say have a starting hand with Mox, Mox, Land, Dack, Force of Will, another blue card, and any card of your choice that isn't ancestral recall or tinker.  First turn you play Dack, do you even plus 1 him?  

This is an important point. He'll go in a deck that will ALWAYS wants to +1 him, given graveyard synergies enabled by Snapcaster, Welder, Yawg, and the like. However he will not be that great in a deck that will not always want to +1 him. Liliana's the same way, in Vintage.

In other words, no, he's not "better than" Jace, as in, strictly more useful in every situation. He requires more work to enable, but that work may be worth it. Ral is similar: Potucek has shown recently that in a deck built to abuse him (with Vault, Gifts, and a high density of board control) Ral can be in the same neighborhood of power as Jace. "In the abstract" Dack is not as good, but all that means is, you have to build for him. I think the raw power level of the card is such that people will find the 2-3 archetypes he works in, and play him to regular top 8 appearances. Not to the level of Jace, but really that's not a useful comparison.

[gkraigher]

MaximumCDawg,

All 4 of Jace's abilities are relevant abilities.  

[fsecco]

Man, we could forge situations where he would be good, where he could be terrible. What if one of those cards, was Ancient Grudge? What if one was Goblin Welder? So enough with "what if's"

Stealing a Tangle Wire early against MUD IS good, since you get 1 more permanent AND get to tap 1 card less since you can remove the counter before untapping. If you think that's not good against MUD, then man, what is?

Sure +1 isn't card advantage. I don't remember anyone saying that here. But it does help you dig for narrow answers, doesn't it?

Also, I never said this breaks the MUD matchup. I just argued that it isn't useless, like people here implied. Game 1 it won't be a (really useless) Flusterstorm in your hand. AND it will help you turn Flusterstorms into something useful.

Even if Dack comes out game 2 for Energy Flux. I like it.

That said, of course he is much more situational than Jace. Is TMD really gonna treat every spoiler by simply comparing blue cards to Jace? Aren't there any other arguments? That way I could argue that Ponder and Preordain are shit, since they're obviously worse than Ancestral Recall. GET OVER JACE, guys.

ps: there's a thread going on here on Mana Drain about "best movies of 2013". Maybe you guys could go there and ask: "Yeah, but are they better than Citizen Kane?"

ps again: for me the lamest thing about this guy is how bad his ultimate is. =/

[gkraigher]

Stealing an opponent's tangle wire is nearly completely worthless.  It keeps the number of counters on it higher for longer.  So yes, you get to remove the counter from it and then tap cards, but it also stayed on that higher number because I didn't have an upkeep.  NET NET the same for you.  The shops player has to keep another permanent tapped a turn longer, they don't care! 

I guess you get to tap tangle wire to tangle wire, but again, this is almost certainly an awful play. 

[diopter]

Gkraigher:

I've actually come around on the +1 ability, and it took some introspection on some of the anti-Jace arguments from years ago to see why.

Jace is only overcosted Brainstorm on the first turn. Thereafter, it is "Draw 4, put back 2" when combined with your draw step, which is insane.

Similarly, Dack on turns after the first reads "burn through your topdecks 3 times as fast as your opponent" which is insane in the combo-control mirror. Even though you aren't getting +CA, at some point you're going to topdeck business and they're going to topdeck land (or draw land, Mox with their Confidant) and you're going to win.

On that topic: because it's +1, you can race Confidant beats for a few turns.

The fact that it can steal Vault and BSC means that getting into a topdeck war is actually profitable since you likely won't die to an insane rip.

Yeah it's not strong against Dredge or various Fish variants but that's not its niche. The fact that it has insane utility against two broad archetypes is really remarkable.

I think briankPK was right. I dunno that this is stronger than Jace, but it could be on par!

[fsecco]

Stealing an opponent's tangle wire is nearly completely worthless.  It keeps the number of counters on it higher for longer.  So yes, you get to remove the counter from it and then tap cards, but it also stayed on that higher number because I didn't have an upkeep.  NET NET the same for you.  The shops player has to keep another permanent tapped a turn longer, they don't care!

No it doesn't. Suppose your Wire has 3 counters. I tap 3, then pay another 3, play Dack and steal it. On your turn, you'll have to tap 3, not 2 like you would had I not stolen it. Also, you lost Tangle Wire, so you have 1 less permanent. Which means that you're virtually having to tap 2 more than you would.

Next turn, I'll have to tap 2 (like I would have) but now I have an extra permanent I wouldn't have before (Tangle Wire). Meaning I have to tap 1 less than I would. Isn't that good?

[gkraigher]

I highly doubt you will be stealing a tangle wire with 3 or 4 counters on it.  I could see you stealing one with 2 counters on it.

I suppose the +1 ability is good if your deck is running something like ancient grudge, but other than that I don't see it.  I agree diopter, that the card is insane in the mirror match of that deck.  But against every other deck but shops it is bad, and against shops it costs 3 mana so it is only ok.  

For the record, I was behind Jace from day 1 and you can see the timestamps for it in the forum
 

this guy has the potential to dominate in vintage.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39489.0

For the record, I think this Dack is narrow, and at best is merely playable in vintage.   Which is still a wonderful thing.  I think everyone is over blowing how great the card is vs shops, it's not, it's good.  This card is far, far away from being dominate.  It's a nice printing, but very much over-hyped.  I think the long term value of a non-foil is $15.  

[fsecco]

I highly doubt you will be stealing a tangle wire with 3 or 4 counters on it.  I could see you stealing one with 2 counters on it. 

Did you really answer that? hehehe
The example above serves for any number of Wire counters. It's tempo gain, which is crucial against Shops.
That, of course, if you don't have any other juicier target for Dack. But it isn't useless, not at ALL.

[diopter]

Stealing a Tangle Wire might be situationally ok but I'm really more interested in stealing Moxen (or keeping powder dry for stray Golem).

Though we should take Prospero's points to heart. Revoker and Factory can hurt, so having a support suite of Chewers and Bolts in store is extremely important.

[fsecco]

Stealing Wire can buy you a turn againt MUD. Stealing a Mox does that also. But, situationally, stealing Wire could be better, since the MUD player will tap 1 more permanent for a turn. This could be relevant. Actually this whole argument came to be because someone said stealing a Wire would be worthless. I was just trying to prove it isn't hehe. Worthless is stealing a Chalice, a Sphere, etc, without having a way to sacrifice them for advantage.

And yes, Dack is only being considered playable because his splash is red. Bolts, artifact removal and Welder are what make him viable.

ps: sorry about multiple posts in a row. I have too much free time in my hands today.

[diopter]

Don't get too hung up about what's going to the graveyard with the +1. It's nice utility but whatever!

Instead imagine that you are allowed to turn each draw step into a Preordain.

(more or less, yeah yeah it's not exactly the same, deal with it)

Considering that in the post board matchups for Fish and Dredge, certain cards can give you a huge advantage (e.g. Deluge, spellbomb), this thing surviving even one turn can give you a very good path to accessing your bomb trumps.

And considering it comes down easily on turn 2, I'm quite confident it can survive a turn.

And because it costs 3 instead of 4, it matches up very nicely against Jace in the "hunting for bomb singletons" department.

Of course, Jace is still a huge bomb... The combination of card volume AND quality is unmatched by Dack without help (e.g. Dacking into gush) ... I make the comparison to Necropotence only somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I will probably run an N/N split in a bunch of my decks, where N is at least 3 and I'll work hard to ramp it to 4.

This last point is worth discussing though... Would you run Dack #3 over Jace #4?

[beder]

I believe this card almost wins the game by itself against shop.

First, it is a control magic rather than a destruction, which means a +1/-1 rather than just a -1.

Second, it is a reusable control magic. Shop player have to adress it right now through attack - or through revoker - if it does not want to hold all his threats in hand so they cannot be used against him. In a sense, it has a worst consequences than an active smokestack on board - if left unmolested, it will use your existing board against you and as long as it is on board, I cannot really play my best permanents to change this as I know they will turn against me soon. So I hold them in hand until I find a solution to this situation.

Then, as it is also a solution to tinker in blue decks, I believe it can easily replace some "main cards" that are usully used against shop or against tinker in most decks.

Finally, the first ability to do a careful study every turn can also be enough to break the blue mirror. Sure, this is not as strong as having a Jave on board. But it is cheaper and I believe once on board, it may be enough to create a tremendous difference in terms of card quality.

Considering that on top of that, some deck will also find ways to use the discard capabilities, it sounds to me that this will be either a very good "anti shop anti tinker" card - 1of or 2 of in blue decks - or a key component  4of in some decks also abusing the drill/discard ability.

[serracollector]

I would like to run dack in a deck with the AK engine with intuition and noxious revival ancient grudge and broken spells like tinker and time vault. I would even consider going four dack and four jace and maybe one tezz and one ral with no creatures except maybe tinker bot and empty the warrens and just run main deck toxic deluge and pyroclasm for creature control. A grixis control deck with that much draw and filter and four ofs doesnt need creatures at all in vintage.

[Eastman]

Stealing Wire can buy you a turn againt MUD. Stealing a Mox does that also. But, situationally, stealing Wire could be better, since the MUD player will tap 1 more permanent for a turn.

I'd say generally against shops you'd rather expand your mana then control theirs, so stealing a wire is probably only worth doing if they have an aggro board. But, against an aggro board you want to steal a creature. So I don't think stealing wire is terribly useful.

[fsecco]

Stealing Wire can buy you a turn againt MUD. Stealing a Mox does that also. But, situationally, stealing Wire could be better, since the MUD player will tap 1 more permanent for a turn.

I'd say generally against shops you'd rather expand your mana then control theirs, so stealing a wire is probably only worth doing if they have an aggro board. But, against an aggro board you want to steal a creature. So I don't think stealing wire is terribly useful.

I tend to disagree, since stealing a Wire WILL net you more mana next turn. So it kinda is developing your mana. Sure, I'd take Sol Ring before taking Wire.

[Protoaddict]

I hate how everyone keeps saying his +1 is not card advantage. If you include this guy in your deck and you don't play cards that become card advantage with him then that is your bad deck building.

There are a multitude of ways to turn this guys +1 into card advantage, repeatable, every turn.

• Squee or that 3 kingdoms dragon will turn his cycle into a draw every turn.
• Anything with flashback works
• Accumulated Knowledge is a possibility
• Crucible of worlds
• If you wanna get crafty bloodghast and the like.

If your not running something from that list you only have yourself to blame. it's like playing Jace without fetches for the shuffle. All cards are dependent on the synergy they provide with the other stuff in your lists.

Likewise, I can think of a few situations where this guy will be purely better than Jace without any surrounding cards. Obviously and most importantly, the workshops match. Begin easier to cast is already a huge bonus for this guy, add to that the fact that jace can only bounce, so if he is stareing down a lodestone and a revoker with no other bodies on your board you are screwed, while this guy can come down, steal a dude and deny you getting though with the other one because now you have a blocker.

[diopter]

- I don't think you want to run Squee
- Deep Analysis seems ok on its face but might not be necessary.
- Snapcasters already do a lot on their own so that's a possibility - hide your business in the graveyard to assume a control role, then switch gears when Jace shows up
- Honestly though, Dacking into Jace two turns in a row and test spelling your opponent with it is insane enough on its own.

I still think active Jace against Grixis control is better in a lot of contexts. Dack's not that far behind though.

[StanleyAugust]

I think Dack is overrated. While his -2 is good against Shops and Tinker and occasionally stealing a Lotus or a Mox (and even that seems overpriced), it's a very narrow effect and at the same time one that is completely useless in a bunch of important matchups. His +1 I don't know. I guess if you don't have anything else to do with Dack you might as well Careful Study each turn, but you'd expect more from a 3cc card. His ultimate is almost useless and definitely underpowered.

I think he'll see a lot of play and help spawn a neo-slaver trend, and some people playing him will do well. However, after a little while, people will start realising that they were doing well in spite of and not because of Dack.

[Templar]

If I ever decide to revisit my old U/R Welder deck, I would run this guy as...maybe a two-of.  Otherwise, probably not so much.

[WhiteLotus]

It seems strange no one mentions the interaction with Yawgmoth's will, last I heard that card was still bonkers in vintage. Also in a deck that generates a ton of card advantage the careful study part each turn could be pretty good to turn it into card quality as well as digging deeper for combo pieces. Discarding a dead draw like Blightsteel colossus or a situational answer seems pretty nice.

The stealing part is obviously very good against most blue combo control decks, since they tend to win with artifacts. Stealing anything like a sol ring, crucible, EE seems pretty nice.
Even stealing something like a grafdigger's cage/Null rod and tinkering/Welding it away doesn't seem that awfull.

Against workshops I suspect it will be highly situationnal, sometimes it will single handedly win you the game and sometimes it will very bad.

It doesn't seem that every deck will want it though, It looks pretty niche without powerfull synergies to abuse it. If anything this will go into Welder Builds and I hope make them a thing again, those decks are pretty fun and deserve a comeback since they were collateral victims from Time vault and Tezz.
It's not going to break the format and definitely not comparable to Jace that goes into any deck playing mana drain. But then again Jace is "THE" Planeswalker, Tezz 1 & 2 see play, I don't see why this guy wouldn't. Especially since he's the first 3ccm vintage relevant pwalker to be printed and fits well with pre existing strategies.