UR Delver

[keys]

I would suggest Simoon. Pyroclasm is also a nice option, but it is much better in lists with Goyf. However, as good as board wipes are, the most important thing in the mirror is to outdraw them.

Well done - a card I'd never even heard of!

Have you heard of Electrickery?

[JarofFortune]

Electrickery doesn't work as well because it gets hit by misstep.

[dangerlinto]

I've been very happy with Circle of Flame.  This card is the nuts against Pyromancer, and is also very good against Confidant and Snapcaster. 

[thecrav]

Electrickery doesn't work as well because it gets hit by misstep.

It also costs 1RR when it has more than one target, which is double rough - spend 3 mana to get countered by misstep!

[vaughnbros]

Electrickery doesn't work as well because it gets hit by misstep.

It also costs 1RR when it has more than one target, which is double rough - spend 3 mana to get countered by misstep!

It only costs 1R to overload it.  I feel like it would be rare for this card to be better than Fire, especially since the ice component of the card makes it much more versatile.

[MoonDark]

What are you guys cutting to include cruise?

What would you cut from the 'base' Menendian list?

[keys]

LSV suggested this, basically:

-1 Misdirection
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Preordain

+2 Treasure Cruise
+2 Gitaxian Probe

[brianpk80]

I wouldn't cut Mystical Tutor since resolving Time Walk is the scariest thing this deck can do. 

[Smmenen]

LSV suggested this, basically:

-1 Misdirection
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Preordain

+2 Treasure Cruise
+2 Gitaxian Probe

that's definitely wrong.

that doesn't even make sense.  Preordain is one of hte best cards are filling you up for Treasure Cruise.

I talk about how to rebuild it in my podcast, but you have to rebuild Delver around it.   I've got a really good list that had no Gush, but it's ok to run 2 Gush. You just can't run 4, IMO. 

[zeus-online]

.

[Protoaddict]

it seems to me that these are probably not as strong as just playing better cantrips. Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain as well as Gitixian probe do not put as much to the yard but leave you with reliably stronger hands and top decks with the added versatility fetch interaction.

Also the more of those poor cantrips you actually use, the more likely you are to draw them off your TC, which means now you have to invest more mana to get cards you need again Otherwise your deck is just going to draw and cycle and draw and cycle all day.

I mean, though scour, if you use it for nothing else but to fill the yard for delve, is 1 mana for 3 cards that translates into 3 mana later on. There comes a point where if you are doing too much to power these cards out you may be devoting more resources to making them happen than you are actually getting from them in return.

I think the real question is what about the non conventional methods the deck has to fill the yard? Delver probably does not need this but Bazaar can easily fill a yard and draw you into game winners rapidly.

[Chubby Rain]

I've been very happy with Circle of Flame.  This card is the nuts against Pyromancer, and is also very good against Confidant and Snapcaster. 

Slice and Dice is my current favorite but not sure about the mirror match.

[zeus-online]

.

[Protoaddict]

Keep in mind that if we are assuming that all the cards you put in the yard are just mana for TC and Dig, then you are using no recursion (snapcaster, Ancient Grudge, Yawgs will, etc.) so you have to ask is running TC better than not running those cards, in many cases the answer may be no.

Assuming that you are ok with that, you have to be ok with the fact that your risking mana to self mill possible restricted cards in a deck with no recursion. TC is probably not so great when you are doing it by risking your ancestral and timewalks. I know that topdecks are schrodingers cat until you draw it, but look at it this way, a deck with no self milling never runs the risk of milling its timewalk.

[JarofFortune]

Keep in mind that if we are assuming that all the cards you put in the yard are just mana for TC and Dig, then you are using no recursion (snapcaster, Ancient Grudge, Yawgs will, etc.) so you have to ask is running TC better than not running those cards, in many cases the answer may be no.

Assuming that you are ok with that, you have to be ok with the fact that your risking mana to self mill possible restricted cards in a deck with no recursion. TC is probably not so great when you are doing it by risking your ancestral and timewalks. I know that topdecks are schrodingers cat until you draw it, but look at it this way, a deck with no self milling never runs the risk of milling its timewalk.

Considering that this is Delver, it really doesn't matter in all but the most fringe scenarios that Time Walk gets milled. Same with Ancestral, considering that you are running up to four extra copies of them, which is the reason to run thought scour in the first place. For example, for all you other delver players out there, how often do you win games because of time Walk? On the flip side, how often do you pitch it to Force? Milling Time walk is well worth three extra cards.

Grudge and snapcaster can both be played with Delve Cards, by the way(That doesn't mean Snapcaster should always be played in this deck, the card is very meta dependent).

[Protoaddict]

if you are running 4 Treasure cruise along side 1 ancestral recall and 4 Thoughtscours to fuel them, you have devoted 9 slots to just this engine. The more of this engine you use the most likely you are to hit one of your pieces with thoughtscour.

I'm not sure how many of these you need to resolve in a game to win at the end of the day, but what I have to question is this more draw or even cheaper in the long run than running 1 ancestral, 1 Merchant scroll, 1 snapcaster, etc? Or even something like noxious revival to redraw ancestral and just loop it?

[Varal]

I don't think you should rely so much on Delve to win the game that you die to Scavenging Ooze or Leyline of the Void.

[Samoht]

if you are running 4 Treasure cruise along side 1 ancestral recall and 4 Thoughtscours to fuel them, you have devoted 9 slots to just this engine. The more of this engine you use the most likely you are to hit one of your pieces with thoughtscour.

I'm not sure how many of these you need to resolve in a game to win at the end of the day, but what I have to question is this more draw or even cheaper in the long run than running 1 ancestral, 1 Merchant scroll, 1 snapcaster, etc? Or even something like noxious revival to redraw ancestral and just loop it?

You're right, everyone cut Ancestral Recall because it fuels your Treasure Cruise plan and that plan is weak to your opponent diluting their deck to beat it, maybe!

[zeus-online]

.

[Smmenen]

I'm not sure about 1 null rod in a deck with no tutors, no gush and only cantrip manipulation. It looks nice laying on the table but the chance of having it when you need it seems marginal.

I actually really like a singleton Null Rod.  I was running a single Null Rod in my Delver decks for the last few months when the metagame shifted to alot of UW decks and Slaver briefly after that.  

The main reason to run a Null Rod is if you are going to play in the Northeast, where lots of control pilots rely on Engineered Explosives type cards to wipe your board. Also, Null Rod is REALLY good against Bomberman.  You only need 1 for it to make a big difference.

I found that pre-Cruise Delver sometimes has trouble with Bomberman, which can assemble the combo just before you can tempo them out.   Null Rod is the super answer to that.  I played a singleton Null Rod in my Delver deck at the last local tournament, and beat the Bomberman pilot that knocked me out of top 4 the last time.  

Finally, it's great in the late game against control decks because it makes your Spell Pierces/Flusterstorms relevant in the late game.  After alot of testing, one Null Rod total between maindeck and SB was perfect.  It's fine in the SB, but I actually felt that I had more room in my maindeck, so I slipped it in there.

As I said in the VSL interview, Null Rod is tactical, not strategic here.  It's not to deny mana per se, it's to deal with the kinds of things I just described, while also slowing Will, etc.

[The Atog Lord]

I agree with Steve. I have tested UR Delver with one Null Rod, and that Null Rod is extremely good against Big Blue decks, especially against Bomberman. It halts their Vault/Key approach, while stifling their development. One was the perfect number of that card, even with no tutoring. It was one of the last cards I cut from my VSL list -- that, and a maindeck Ancient Grudge.

[Varal]

Singleton are perfect for strong cards that aren't critical to your strategy and that doesn't play well in multiple. You're happy when you see it and it's not a big deal when you don't draw it.

[MoonDark]

I'm not sure about 1 null rod in a deck with no tutors, no gush and only cantrip manipulation. It looks nice laying on the table but the chance of having it when you need it seems marginal.

I actually really like a singleton Null Rod.  I was running a single Null Rod in my Delver decks for the last few months when the metagame shifted to alot of UW decks and Slaver briefly after that.  

The main reason to run a Null Rod is if you are going to play in the Northeast, where lots of control pilots rely on Engineered Explosives type cards to wipe your board. Also, Null Rod is REALLY good against Bomberman.  You only need 1 for it to make a big difference.

I found that pre-Cruise Delver sometimes has trouble with Bomberman, which can assemble the combo just before you can tempo them out.   Null Rod is the super answer to that.  I played a singleton Null Rod in my Delver deck at the last local tournament, and beat the Bomberman pilot that knocked me out of top 4 the last time.  

Finally, it's great in the late game against control decks because it makes your Spell Pierces/Flusterstorms relevant in the late game.  After alot of testing, one Null Rod total between maindeck and SB was perfect.  It's fine in the SB, but I actually felt that I had more room in my maindeck, so I slipped it in there.

As I said in the VSL interview, Null Rod is tactical, not strategic here.  It's not to deny mana per se, it's to deal with the kinds of things I just described, while also slowing Will, etc.

Hey steven, that's great to know.

Could you point me to the episode of your podcast which points about how to rebuild UR Delver with Cruise? Really interested to hear about it

Cheers!

[jamestosetti]

I haven't had time to listen to the pod cast that includes rebuilding delver to include Treasure Cruise yet, but I was wondering if this is something that is going to worsen the Shops, Mud, Stax, Terra Nova, (whatever the various decks are called) matches. I did test the Null Rod this weekend, and it is awesome. I cut the Ancient Grudge to include it, and I also cut one Preordain to incorporate a fourth Mental Misstep. I normally don't use four Preordains in decks because I just spend time digging, and in this deck it causes me to end up with so much virtual card advantage I can end up discarding playable cards.

I'm not sure where the best place for the following questions might be, so I might as well ask in this thread since it is related to Treasure Cruise. I was wondering how Thirst for Knowledge can be restricted with a cc of u2, but Dack Fayden is ok? This format seems to evolve at a snails pace, and it takes restrictions or unrestrictions to really change it. Gush is obviously really good for the format, but it seems that we have Mud on top, Gush decks of varying strategy and effectiveness following it, and then Vault Key combo. Can any card really change the Mud match while advancing position against other blue decks? Null Rod seems to do that for this deck, but it was already very good, and it won't do the same for the decks that rely on artifacts. Storm combo seems to have almost fallen off the map unless its Gush storm, but doesn't that deck really struggle with Stax? Merfolk seems to find a niche here some how some way (maybe its budget I don't know). I don't mean to detract from the subject, but does anyone think any changes in the restricted list would make the format more balanced, or is it possible to make cards that interact with Mud and other blue decks at the same time?

[Tha Gunslinga]

I was wondering how Thirst for Knowledge can be restricted with a cc of u2, but Dack Fayden is ok?

Because they're totally not the same card?  Dack requires you to play two colors, and is sorcery-speed, and is card disadvantage when its draw/discard ability is used.  Thirst is seriously a totally different card.  You're better off comparing Tezzeret the Seeker to Enlightened Tutor or something.

[jamestosetti]

I was wondering why Thirst for Knowledge is restricted. I just didn't elaborate enough. I understand what you said about the comparison for sure. I think I was trying to draw conclusions from the archetype that wanted to use Thirst, and the archetypes that are using Dack today. I remember when TFK was restricted, I just don't know why that needed to be done. I have been testing R/U vault combo with Treasure Cruise, and it is probably two cards away from where it needs to be. The only think I miss from black is the Yawg Will. I have played against RUB version of the RUG Delver list, and I don't understand the need for black there.

[Smmenen]

I'm not sure about 1 null rod in a deck with no tutors, no gush and only cantrip manipulation. It looks nice laying on the table but the chance of having it when you need it seems marginal.

I actually really like a singleton Null Rod.  I was running a single Null Rod in my Delver decks for the last few months when the metagame shifted to alot of UW decks and Slaver briefly after that.  

The main reason to run a Null Rod is if you are going to play in the Northeast, where lots of control pilots rely on Engineered Explosives type cards to wipe your board. Also, Null Rod is REALLY good against Bomberman.  You only need 1 for it to make a big difference.

I found that pre-Cruise Delver sometimes has trouble with Bomberman, which can assemble the combo just before you can tempo them out.   Null Rod is the super answer to that.  I played a singleton Null Rod in my Delver deck at the last local tournament, and beat the Bomberman pilot that knocked me out of top 4 the last time.  

Finally, it's great in the late game against control decks because it makes your Spell Pierces/Flusterstorms relevant in the late game.  After alot of testing, one Null Rod total between maindeck and SB was perfect.  It's fine in the SB, but I actually felt that I had more room in my maindeck, so I slipped it in there.

As I said in the VSL interview, Null Rod is tactical, not strategic here.  It's not to deny mana per se, it's to deal with the kinds of things I just described, while also slowing Will, etc.

Hey steven, that's great to know.

Could you point me to the episode of your podcast which points about how to rebuild UR Delver with Cruise? Really interested to hear about it

Cheers!

I think he's referring to the most recent SMIP podcast. 

I'll post my Delver list from EW here in the next week or so. 

[diophan]

I played 1 electrickery in the board and played the mirror 7-8 times between the trial and Champs. Considering the card is meant almost exclusively for the pyromancer mirror, I was unimpressed with it. Winning the matchup most of the time seems to boil down (1) having a pyromancer in play (2) getting to a reasonably high velocity with regard to cycling through cantrips and cruising/gushing. There are occasional games won by protecting a delver, for example, but most of my mirror matches boiled down to who could stick a pyromancer and generate enough tokens to overwhelm the opponent. It seems difficult to maintain a heavy control role in the mirror because eventually your opponent will resolve a pyromancer and even if you bolt it at the first opportunity, they can often cast a sorcery+several instants in response to your bolt.

I won 2 games where my opponent was running at a higher velocity but I stuck my pyromancer early enough that I was able to kill him before his card/cantripping advantage turned the tide. These are the games where electrickery for my opponent would have been solid--you need a reset so you have time to let your velocity win the game. However, these circumstances seem narrow enough that the electrickery isn't worth the spot. You need to be ahead/on partity on velocity to resolve it, and your opponent needs to be ahead on the pyromancer plan for this to have the desired effect. You can certainly cast it early on to kill a delver or a pyromancer and a token or two, but I don't think these uses justify its spot in your board.

Staticaster might be the better card, since the opponent can only FOW/REB it or bolt it after it gets an activation, meaning you can frequently get at least one activation even when behind on velocity. Those of you who have been running electrickery/izzet staticaster, what are your thoughts after playing with them?

Another case against electrickery/staticaster is that I believe many people's decklists were underprepared for anything but the mirror and big blue. I ended up being lucky with matchups and faced nothing but big blue and the mirror in the swiss on Sunday. Justifying this over a nature's claim seems more difficult going forward.

[serracollector]

Goblin Sharpshooter sounds like a good option as well.

[vaughnbros]

Staticaster seems pretty terrible in a mirror compared to other pingers.  It hits your own creatures too.  I feel like the most a pinger is going to do is kill 1 creature and get nailed by a bolt though.  Slice and dice is an uncounterable reset on pyromancers that draws you a card, that seems like the best option for a card specifically to get back from behind.