Eudemonia Old School 5/19 Results! Lists! Pics!

[nedleeds]

Now that pesky permanent is out of the way and you can return your attention to your adult beverage (or winning the game, if that's more your style, possibly both).

a) nice write up on your technique

b) why you have to pick on my favorite thing to through the breach?

c) is the russian hellcarver for trade/sale/sacrifice?

I use whack an orb. Thumb and index lightly holding it (left hand) a bit to the right of the target then I whack it a bit with my right index finger and release it simultaneously.

There's a certain appeal to unsleeving a $200 card and smashing it onto the table

[Smmenen]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Obviously, I don't think Norcal Old School should unrestrict Mana Vault

[LotusHead]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Obviously, I don't think Norcal Old School should unrestrict Mana Vault

While I remember the newfangled 4-of rule and 60 card decks of Magic's Yore... (whatever that means).

I am not opposed to Old School Magic (Eudo style) rotating what is and isn't banned with at least some kind of context applied.

IE, the idea of 4 Mana Vault is almsot certainly tied to 4 Strip Mine, (and Black Vice, etc)....

If we do this Old School thing 4ish times per year, we have the chance to explore the B/R lists, (and say, banning Fallen Empires, as THE DARK was the last old school set released (ie, less than unlimited release run).

Just a thought.

[JACO]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Obviously, I don't think Norcal Old School should unrestrict Mana Vault

The next (first) Old School tournament I host will have unrestricted Mana Vault, as well as Workshop, as well as Hymn to Tourach. Mana Vault was a fine accelerant for years, especially without the goofy Mana Crypt/Mana Vault combo errata. Yes it works well with Mind Twist and Transmute Artifact...and that's about it. Play your Turbo Serra Angel decks!

[Smmenen]

Mana Vault was fine, but no one comboed Mana Vault with Transmute (suprisingly) to make Transmute a Demonic Tutor for artifacts (putting virtually any artifact directly into play).  Also, Mana Vault fuels Nether Voids and early Juggernauts.  

I definitely oppose unrestricting Workshop in this environment because I think first turn Juggernaut + Winter Orb is probably game over, since you are able to reuse Workshops every turn. while your opponent can't.  Also, Workshops can play Icy, Coffin, Su-Chi, Trike, etc.    

[JACO]

Mana Vault was fine, but no one comboed Mana Vault with Transmute (suprisingly) to make Transmute a Demonic Tutor for artifacts (putting virtually any artifact directly into play).  Also, Mana Vault fuels Nether Voids and early Juggernauts.  

I definitely oppose unrestricting Workshop in this environment because I think first turn Juggernaut + Winter Orb is probably game over, since you are able to reuse Workshops every turn. while your opponent can't.  Also, Workshops can play Icy, Coffin, Su-Chi, Trike, etc.    

While it's true that you can use Workshop to cast those, Energy Flux and Shatterstorm exist, as do tons of other artifact hate cards in the environment, and it's not like those cards are all that playable now if Workshop is restricted. Juggernaut is no Lodestone Golem, and even a simple Lightning Bolt, Crumble, Swords to Plowshares, or Disenchant can answer it on turn 1. Frankly I'd rather see more decks exist than just the Zoo, Blue Good Stuff Control, and various Relic Barrier decks, and having unrestricted Workshops and Bazaars makes way more sense if you want more diversity.

I've done a good amount of historical research while editing your book, as well as looking on coverage on the 93/94 Magic blog, and there's little reason to have a restricted Workshop. Yes it can power out a few threats, but that's not all that scary, nor is casting Mana Vault into Nether Void. Those strategies are basically uncompetitive as it stands in 93/94 Magic, so a boost to make them approaching playable would be better for the format.

I would also play Winter Orb with its original wording, and return to playing with mana burn. I think both Fastbond and Fork are pretty weak as well (yes I know about the Chalice Recursion deck, and the Hurkyl's Recall Fireball deck), but something like that would only be unrestricted if everything else goes well, and would actually make (fragile) combo playable potentially. There are a few of us in Chicago who will be playtesting this soon (as in a couple of weeks), at which point I'll be doing some writing about it on Eternal Central (which will coincide with the new look of EC being released, as we'll have some cool structural updates that will feature and explain the Eternal formats more properly).

[Soly]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Obviously, I don't think Norcal Old School should unrestrict Mana Vault

The next (first) Old School tournament I host will have unrestricted Mana Vault, as well as Workshop, as well as Hymn to Tourach. Mana Vault was a fine accelerant for years, especially without the goofy Mana Crypt/Mana Vault combo errata. Yes it works well with Mind Twist and Transmute Artifact...and that's about it. Play your Turbo Serra Angel decks!

I look forward to an event like this.   

[Smmenen]

Mana Vault was fine, but no one comboed Mana Vault with Transmute (suprisingly) to make Transmute a Demonic Tutor for artifacts (putting virtually any artifact directly into play).  Also, Mana Vault fuels Nether Voids and early Juggernauts.  

I definitely oppose unrestricting Workshop in this environment because I think first turn Juggernaut + Winter Orb is probably game over, since you are able to reuse Workshops every turn. while your opponent can't.  Also, Workshops can play Icy, Coffin, Su-Chi, Trike, etc.    

While it's true that you can use Workshop to cast those, Energy Flux and Shatterstorm exist, as do tons of other artifact hate cards in the environment,

I wouldn't say "a ton" of artifact hate in the environment.  It's pretty much just Crumble, Scavenger Folk, Shatter, Disenchant, Energy Flux, and few others that are playable.  You have board sweepers like Disk, but my point is that Workshops with Winter Orb and Icy to tap down the opponent's lands makes it really hard to get a grip on the game.  

I also object to Workshop being unrestricted because it wasn't a part of Type I back at that time, and I like the only first turn fattie being from Ritual/Mana Vault rather than Shop.  

I actually think the format is remarkably deep and relatively unexplored compared to your assessment, and I wouldn't unrestrict Workshop for all of those reasons.  

I think a deck that can pump out Juggernauts, Su-Chi and Trike turn after turn off a Workshop is already too good.  Juggernaut is so good it was often called the best card in the format in 1994-95, and almost always in the top 5 or top 10.  

But Shop + Winter Orb + Icy is simply too good with the best creatures in the format, like Juggernaut, Su-Chi and Trike.  

A Shop deck like this:

4 Shop
4 Jugg
4 Su-Chi
4 Trike
4 Winter orb
4 Icy
4 Relic Barier
X Tawnos Coffin
X Triskelvaus

Is simply too good to permit, IMO.  I don't think allowing that deck would make the format more fun either.  

I'm with you about unrestricting Fork.  It's pretty innocuous.  

Fastbond isn't restricted, so I'm not sure why you even mentioned that.  

[Hrishi]

Out of curiosity, where else can you play this format? I'm quite intrigued but I'm not sure if there is a store nearby where I can play this!

[nedleeds]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Did they? Their blog still says it's restricted. It's an absurd card for many reasons, Transmute, Hurkyl's Recall powering out Nether Voids, Juggernauts and Trikes. Powering out a turn one Void would be back breaking in this format. Though the Strip Mine restriction might allow an opponent to dig out provided you don't go nuts with Factories.

Obviously, I don't think Norcal Old School should unrestrict Mana Vault

I think the push -> pull is between Vise, Strip Mine and whether you include Hymn and unrestrict it.

Unrestrict Vise and keep Strip Mine restricted and you really lessen its impact. You also don't draw on the play anymore and lessen the chance (~3%) of getting a turn one Vise. Your opponent can mulligan to 6 and all of a sudden you've cast shock. I think either Strip Mine or Vise could be a 4 of but maybe not both, people might get some feel bads from getting vised on the draw and the opponent stripping their first couple of lands. Strip Mine is really just wasteland in 93/94, it's a one for one that an aggressive deck whose curve is low (or who has accelerated out a threat) uses to keep the game from advancing a turn. The fact that it hits basics is almost irrelevant in 93/94. Why does anyone play the card basic island in 3+ color decks in vintage? Wasteland.

If you include Fallen Empires and unrestrict Hymn and Vise then you've got a decision to make, but again the push and pull of 4 x Strip and 4 x hymn might be too much. Getting a land hymned and your next one stripped is pretty brutal.

Anyway, I envy you guys this looked really fun!

[saspook]

Unrestrict Vise and keep Strip Mine restricted and you really lessen its impact. You also don't draw on the play anymore and lessen the chance (~3%) of getting a turn one Vise. Your opponent can mulligan to 6 and all of a sudden you've cast shock. I think either Strip Mine or Vise could be a 4 of but maybe not both, people might get some feel bads from getting vised on the draw and the opponent stripping their first couple of lands. Strip Mine is really just wasteland in 93/94, it's a one for one that an aggressive deck whose curve is low (or who has accelerated out a threat) uses to keep the game from advancing a turn. The fact that it hits basics is almost irrelevant in 93/94. Why does anyone play the card basic island in 3+ color decks in vintage? Wasteland.

If you include Fallen Empires and unrestrict Hymn and Vise then you've got a decision to make, but again the push and pull of 4 x Strip and 4 x hymn might be too much. Getting a land hymned and your next one stripped is pretty brutal.

I like both Hymm and Strip Mine unrestricted as a balance to unrestricted Mana Drain control decks.  Being able to sandbag a Strip Mine until your opponents taps down to just two blue is great.  Especially when it means that you won't lose to their Library because you have more Strip Mines available.

Black Vise was never a fun card, and should stay restricted so that more skill testing cards can be played.  But that is my perspective, as others don't view Mana Drain as a fun card.

[serracollector]

4 x Black Vise
4 x Winter Orb
4 x Juggernaut
4 x Suchi
4 x Triskelion
4 x Icy Manipulator
4 x Relic Barrier
4 x Howling Mine
4 x Mana Vault
4 x Workshop
4 x Factory
5 x Mox
1 x Sol
1 x Lotus
4 x Titanias Song
6 x Forest

sb: 4 tranquility 4 Crumble 4 Erhnam or Ice Storm

Hope you get turn 1 lotus>moat.

[Smmenen]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Did they? Their blog still says it's restricted.

Read the top story on their blog; it's unrestricted.

I agree with you about Black Vise and Strip Mine.   As you know Sean, I used to play competitive Type I in 1994-96 (not the same extent as you, obviously), but the biggest difference between Magic 93/94 and Type I of that era are these two cards.  I grew up in heavy land destruction environments, where Black Vise and Strip Mine were Tier 1 threats.   I look forward to playing Old School Magic with unrestricted Strip Mine and Black Vise at some point.  I used to play 4 Consecrate Lands in my sideboard for a reason!  People played real land destruction decks in those days!  Ivory Tower was primarily used to combat Black Vise!  Not to actually gain life. 

[heiner]

Unrestricting vault is completely fine it helps only bad decks which is actually good. If a nether void deck becomes remotely playable that would be awesome. Stax improves but vault is by far worse than shop so I also see no problem here. Good decision!

[nedleeds]

For whatever reason, the people who run 93/94 decided to unrestrict Mana Vault.  This makes Transmute even more ridiculous, and gives you now the 8 accelerants that were used in the O'Brien School Nether Void deck. 

Did they? Their blog still says it's restricted.

Read the top story on their blog; it's unrestricted.

I agree with you about Black Vise and Strip Mine.   As you know Sean, I used to play competitive Type I in 1994-96 (not the same extent as you, obviously), but the biggest difference between Magic 93/94 and Type I of that era are these two cards.  I grew up in heavy land destruction environments, where Black Vise and Strip Mine were Tier 1 threats.   I look forward to playing Old School Magic with unrestricted Strip Mine and Black Vise at some point.  I used to play 4 Consecrate Lands in my sideboard for a reason!  People played real land destruction decks in those days!  Ivory Tower was primarily used to combat Black Vise!  Not to actually gain life. 

Got it, blog reading skill failure. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure it'll lead to a more 'fun' format but it will replicate old school magic a little closer. Again it's really emulating Wasteland in modern Vintage / Legacy ... I guess Strip is more powerful relative to not having fetchlands / gush as well. We all manage to get by in a format with 4 Wastelands (and more ways to recur it), do we occasionally keep land light hands and get blown out -- sure. Seems like you are fortunate to have a willing group of players who will tweak the old school rules to try to recapture the spirit of old magic.

I still have my signed beta consecrates, they were decent in white weenie back in 94-96, keeping you off strip and making your armageddons a little better, occasionally making a super factory. Another neat deck from that era was a U/w control drain deck with Serendib Djinn, consecrates, drains and actual armageddon. The djinns text used to actually have it 'destroy' a land. I'm unsure why they had to meddle with his wording, he wouldn't be terribly competitive either way in modern magic and the old design intent and flavor would be retained, he comboed with pyramids in the same set (yes ... awful).

Tower was -1 Vise, and a staple in Stasis and many control decks. I think Vise + Hymn at least makes a disruptive land destruction strategy make a deck building choice, I don't think I'd pair the two. Many builds didn't even pair Mind Twist with 4 Vises, which is saying something given Mind Twist was eventually deemed ban worthy for it's ability to just blow a game open.

[mg]

Very interesting discussion! Time to dust of my old TMD account

It is possible that Mana Vault will have a big impact. From my experience in playing with it in a transmute artifact deck, I've always felt it was far worse than fellwar stone though. My guess is that it will be strongest in an O'Brien deck (which wasn't really viable before), and be a good alternative in budget decks. It will probably be played in Gauntlet of Might decks as well. Should be interesting to see what happens, and if us players of today can find a better shell for it than we could in the mid 90s.

There are some proponents over in Sweden for Black Vise and Strip Mine being unrestricted. As both card are reasonably cheap and attainable, I would not be surprised if they were to be unrestricted at some point in the format to test what it would be like for a year or so. If you decide to try out unrestricted workshops, strip mines or vises in a tournament, I'd be really interested in how it works out.

[aahz]

I'm pretty ambivalent about most of the possible (un)restictions, but I want Mana Burn back sooooooo much.

I suspect most desired alterations to the restricted list are a window into what each individual wants (or doesn't want) out of the format. Maybe we should be talking about more abstract ideas regarding the desired landscape first before getting mired in the details of individual cards? This frames it in a different way and allows for discussing categories of cards in groups based on how they impact the game. As an example, I get the feeling that many players aren't fond of getting mana screwed and locked out of the game early (hence the mixed feelings about cards like Strip Mine and Black Vise, and also why some don't want Hymn to Tourach as a 4-of even if it would appear perfectly balanced when viewed from other vantage points). Similarly, an aversion to a metagame consisting largely of The Deck-style wall-of-counters piles is why Mana Drain is restricted and in general people aren't especially upset about it (a view which I am starting to take more seriously, despite my longtime love affair with Drain). Understanding the community's end goals (if there even is any kind of consensus) would then provide a framework for evaluating the potential consequences of possible (un)restrictions, as well as for determining after the fact if B&R changes had the intended effects.

This leads to the question: Can you sum up your views about what you want from Old School in a few sentences, describing what is desirable and what isn't, in terms of gameplay, interactions, types of viable decks, diversity of the field, etc. (preferrably without latching on to any specific cards)?

Anyway, Not sure this is necessarily the best approach, but I like attacking issues from alternative angles that usually go unconsidered, so just some food for thought.

b) why you have to pick on my favorite thing to through the breach?

c) is the russian hellcarver for trade/sale/sacrifice?

I'm, like, totally, in your mind, man. 

Do you really want to make a deal with a Russian Hellcarver Demon? Seems kinda sketchy to me (but I'm not too attached to this guy and you seem to have better use for him at the moment, so maybe we could work something out).

[Smmenen]

The problem is that there is no one answer to that question.  I wrote a really useful Introduction to Old School Magic in article that frames, properly, I believe, this discussion, and would serve a fantastic backdrop and reference point for a communal discussion, but it won't be live for a few months yet. 

My vote for NorCal is to simply do very minor tweaks tournament to tournament, as was suggested much earlier on.  That way we can experiment and enjoy the full range of possibilities rather than trying to find an "ideal." 

[mg]

The way we did it in Sweden was to start with minor tweaks, and I agree that it's a good idea. Once the community grew larger and we had some more data to work with, we tried to base our decisions on results rather than gut feeling. Here's the timelime for our B&R btw, if you're interested:

2007: Pretty much only two players in the start. After a few months, we have 4-5 more players. The first list reflected the original B/R exactly:
Restricted: Ali from Cairo, Ancestral Recall, Berserk, Black Lotus, Braingeyser, Candelabra of Tawnos, Channel, Chaos Orb, Copy Artifact, Demonic Tutor, Feldon's Cane, Ivory Tower, Library of Alexandria, Maze of Ith, Mirror Universe, Mishra's Workshop, Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire, Recall, Regrowth, Sol Ring, Time Walk, Timetwister, Sword of the Ages, Underworld Dreams
Banne: Divine Intervention, Time Vault, Ante cards

2008: First tournament is held at a convention in Gothenburg. B&R is updated pretty heavily before this. Time Vault and Divine Intervention are unbanned; Chaos Orb and Falling Star are banned; Ali from Cairo, Candelabra of Tawnos, Copy Artifact, Ivory Tower, Sword of the Ages and Underworld Dreams are unrestricted; Balance, Black Vise, Fastbond, Mana Vault and Strip Mine are restricted.

2009: Still very few players, and no changes to the list.

2010: One update in February/March before n00bcon 2:  Mirror Universe, Feldon's Cane and Berserk are unrestricted. Another update before Rotary Champs in August: Time Vault and Power Artifact are restricted.

2011: No changes.

2012: In February, Chaos Orb gets errata and is unbanned and restricted. The Swedish old school community have grown to over 60 persons, and it's not really viable to have complete consensus discussions with everyone regarding the other restrictions (although we obviously take all feedback we can get). A smaller group of organisers and players representing different ideas about the list start have discussions. After n00bcon 4 during Easter, Fastbond is unrestricted and Mirror Universe and Shahrazad are restricted. The tournaments was getting popular (34 players at n00bcon 4), we've started to have timed rounds, and hence 4-off Shahrazad is way to time consuming.

2013: After n00bcon 5, we decide to restrict Mana Drain. This lead to a lot of complaints initially, but turned out to be healthy for the format. Mana Drain had been a major bogeyman, and every single final in larger tournaments for the last years had been between two The Decks with 4-off drains. 7 of 8 decks in the n00bcon 5 top8 played multiple drains, and it was completely locking down non-control strategies.

2014: Unrestricting Mana Vault after n00bcon 6. The main idea is that it will allow combo and prison to be a little stronger, and help out budget decks. The format has grown fairly popular (tournament attendance is generally higher than for both Vintage and Legacy tournaments in Sweden), and there is only so much power in the country to go around.

[eliotd]

I agree with small tweaks. Most important I think though is just to try to have as many events as possible so people have more opportunity to try things out. If the B/R list and/or rules in effect change between each event I think it could get confusing and make it hard to learn and refine.

Personally from an overall vision/flavor perspective, I'd be in favor of dumping Fallen Empires since for me the last set that "feels" old school is The Dark (not for any particular game play reasons...although I'd love to see a competitive Goblin Grenade deck...).

Mana burn seems like a fun gimmick to bring back, mostly for the "feel" - with so many people playing four-of Mishra's Factory it wouldn't have that much effect anyway.

I agree that with less draw manipulation and shuffle effects available, the format is vulnerable to too many games being decided by mana screw, so keeping Strip Mine and Black Vise as one-ofs seems right.

Can you sum up your views about what you want from Old School in a few sentences, describing what is desirable and what isn't, in terms of gameplay, interactions, types of viable decks, diversity of the field, etc. (preferrably without latching on to any specific cards)?

I would find having a great variety of competitive archetypes and strategies to be desirable. I'd love to see burn, land destruction, weenie, graveyard, zoo, and wacky combo decks giving the tight blue decks a run for their money. I think one of the great things about this format is how much variety you can squeeze out of a card pool of less than 900, about half of which are garbage. The metagame at Eudo for this first event was good in this regard, but it could be better (more players would help, which of course is a tall order). It's fun to see lots of the weird forgotten cards that have no other home.

[kalisia]

Mana Vault was fine, but no one comboed Mana Vault with Transmute (suprisingly) to make Transmute a Demonic Tutor for artifacts (putting virtually any artifact directly into play).  Also, Mana Vault fuels Nether Voids and early Juggernauts.  

I definitely oppose unrestricting Workshop in this environment because I think first turn Juggernaut + Winter Orb is probably game over, since you are able to reuse Workshops every turn. while your opponent can't.  Also, Workshops can play Icy, Coffin, Su-Chi, Trike, etc.    

Surviving to a first turn Juggernaut + Winter Orb is easier than it seems at the first impression  Consider for example a card like Meekstone...
It costs one colorless mana and keep blocked all the Juggys, Sushis and Juzam of the Earth!

The famous Bertrand Lestree was playing Argothian Pixies maindeck againts these types of threats : Djuggy, Sushi, Mishra's factory...

But I agree that there is a huge difference between MWS and Mana Vault. Mana Vault is strong but can't be used easily every turn.  With MWS, you can play a Djuggernaut every turn, until your hand is empty of robots !!

[JACO]

I think a deck that can pump out Juggernauts, Su-Chi and Trike turn after turn off a Workshop is already too good.  Juggernaut is so good it was often called the best card in the format in 1994-95, and almost always in the top 5 or top 10.  

But Shop + Winter Orb + Icy is simply too good with the best creatures in the format, like Juggernaut, Su-Chi and Trike. A Shop deck like this:
4 Shop
4 Jugg
4 Su-Chi
4 Trike
4 Winter orb
4 Icy
4 Relic Barier
X Tawnos Coffin
X Triskelvaus

Is simply too good to permit, IMO.  I don't think allowing that deck would make the format more fun either.

We're having our inaugural meeting of Old School in Chicago this Thursday. Using the EC banned list, I fully intend to destroy people with a full compliment of Mana Vaults...as to whether they're more powerful in a mono-brown list or something similar to BC's mono-u list remains to be seen.

By the way, to follow up on this, Mith did in fact make this deck as promised, and got repeatedly crushed by me, playing Esper control. He also had 4 Strip Mines and access to 4 Mana Vault. The fact is that Workshop is powerful, but if you spend multiple resources to make a large threat and I can easily Swords to Plowshares, Crumble, Disenchant, or Shatter it, I'm ahead on both resources and tempo probably. And that's exactly how it played out in our games, repeatedly. And I never even cast an Energy Flux against him, which would have been game over in nearly every circumstance. That also doesn't even take into account the 61% of games that Workshop is not in your opener, and you have a ton of bricks in hand that you won't be casting for who knows how many turns while you're getting beat down.

Try actually building this deck and then building other decks to play against it, and you'll probably come to the same conclusion that we did. It's a valuable addition to the metagame and occasionally has very good hands, but is by no means overpowered, especially when people have access to multiple Strip Mines, and a ton of removal.

[aahz]

With access to unrestricted Strip Mine, does pretty much every deck just run 3-4 of them by default? That's the potential problem I have with Strip Mine being unrestricted. Even your Land Tax deck runs three copies.

[nedleeds]

I'd again compare it to Wasteland. Does every Vintage deck currently run 3-4 Wasteland? No. Some decks have mana restrictions and a higher curve.

We all agree not being able to stand up a fetch makes Strip Mine more powerful but the 94-95 formats are generally a few turns slower than modern vintage.

I think Strip Mine was an integral part of the old school experience (as others have stated), it's also a hedge against Library. Even if your control deck plays 1-2 Strip Mine (to tutor for perhaps) it gives you a shot against an opposing Library. Older vintage decks actually just played more lands, for a number of reasons.

- Strip Mine
- No fetches mean you need more redundancy in your duals (e.g. a 3 color deck might play 4 of each dual)
- No good cantrips (besides recall ...) the broken cantrips didn't exist so you couldn't replace lands with the various See 3 cantrips to thin your deck

I also think Garfield intended the Vise to be the natural predator of control. It's an awesome simple design. It also enables prison / Stasis and Draw 7 recursion decks.

Allowing FE and including 4 Hymn forces an aggro / disruption deck to make a tough choice ... Hymn's or Vises? Both are dreadful top decks, and they are in opposition to each other.  I really like JACOs current setup.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/oldschool/

which includes 4 x shops ...

[JACO]

With access to unrestricted Strip Mine, does pretty much every deck just run 3-4 of them by default? That's the potential problem I have with Strip Mine being unrestricted. Even your Land Tax deck runs three copies.

Strip Mine can be used as a 0-4 of, depending on the deck. I used it in the Land's Edge deck to forcibly remove my opponent's lands to bait them to play more, to trigger Land Tax. I don't think I need 4, but 2-3 is probably a good enough number in that specific deck. Danny built a Stasis deck that started with 4 Strip Mines and currently has 0 (doesn't produce colored mana, which is at a premium in that deck especially).

I'd again compare it to Wasteland. Does every Vintage deck currently run 3-4 Wasteland? No. Some decks have mana restrictions and a higher curve.

We all agree not being able to stand up a fetch makes Strip Mine more powerful but the 94-95 formats are generally a few turns slower than modern vintage.

I think Strip Mine was an integral part of the old school experience (as others have stated), it's also a hedge against Library. Even if your control deck plays 1-2 Strip Mine (to tutor for perhaps) it gives you a shot against an opposing Library. Older vintage decks actually just played more lands, for a number of reasons.

- Strip Mine
- No fetches mean you need more redundancy in your duals (e.g. a 3 color deck might play 4 of each dual)
- No good cantrips (besides recall ...) the broken cantrips didn't exist so you couldn't replace lands with the various See 3 cantrips to thin your deck

I also think Garfield intended the Vise to be the natural predator of control. It's an awesome simple design. It also enables prison / Stasis and Draw 7 recursion decks.

Allowing FE and including 4 Hymn forces an aggro / disruption deck to make a tough choice ... Hymn's or Vises? Both are dreadful top decks, and they are in opposition to each other.  I really like JACOs current setup.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/oldschool/

which includes 4 x shops ...

I agree on all of these points. Strip Mine is valuable as a tactic to not only destroy colored mana, but to be able to more reliably deal with Library of Alexandria (which will most often win the game if it goes unchecked), Mishra's Workshop, Maze of Ith, and especially Mishra's Factory. Factory is so good and played in so many decks that the main European Old School group was talking about potentially restricting it (but they held off at this time).

[aahz]

Just asking questions, not saying that Strip Mine should necessarily be restricted. There are some persuasive arguments there. However, Stripping back and forth constantly can get a bit dull, so the anti-Strip side still isn't completely dead in the water. I think the comparison to Mishra's Factory is quite apt (and I've actually been wondering about a potential restriction of that, too, given it's ubiquity of play). Glad to see that Workshop seems to be decent, but not overpowered (as I've been on the side of it's unrestriction as well). Overall, I like the EC version of 93/4, though there folks in our meta who don't seem to agree re:Vault/Shop/Strip. Maybe we should try the EC restricted list at our next Norcal event.

[nedleeds]

Mishra's Factory is so good ... you Copy Artifact it sometimes.

[JACO]

Just asking questions, not saying that Strip Mine should necessarily be restricted. There are some persuasive arguments there. However, Stripping back and forth constantly can get a bit dull, so the anti-Strip side still isn't completely dead in the water. I think the comparison to Mishra's Factory is quite apt (and I've actually been wondering about a potential restriction of that, too, given it's ubiquity of play). Glad to see that Workshop seems to be decent, but not overpowered (as I've been on the side of it's unrestriction as well). Overall, I like the EC version of 93/4, though there folks in our meta who don't seem to agree re:Vault/Shop/Strip. Maybe we should try the EC restricted list at our next Norcal event.

The thing is, the more you unrestrict (Strip Mine, Mana Vault, Mishra's Workshop, Power Artifact, Fork, Mirror Universe, Black Vise, etc.), the greater variety of decks and strategies you open up, and we haven't found anything to be overpowered yet that would merit restriction of any of those. Try it out even just playtesting to see how broken of a deck you can make with any and all of them, and then you'll usually find that there are plenty of answers to them.

[aahz]

Mishra's Factory is so good ... you Copy Artifact it sometimes.

I like to animate in my upkeep and sac to Hell's Caretaker reanimating an even bigger robot.

[Smmenen]

I don't agree with Jaco that unrestrictions open up more things. I think the format is relatively under explored right now, and think that Strip Mine unrestricted limits, rather than expands, ultimately, the range of total decks.   This is a multiple equilibria format rather than one in which there is a 'correct' B&R list, so I think it's a good thing that different areas have different lists.

Also, this thread is the wrong place to have this continuing convo.