Dack Slaver

[BoshNRoll]

Carsten Kotter included this list at the end of an otherwise non-vintage-related article earlier this month.  He called it a rough draft that needs more ways to interact with the board.  It's also short one sideboard. 

Dack seems awesome.  With TFK restricted, Dack can fill in as copies 2-4 from back when Control Slaver was playable.  He also has the massive upside of drawing cards every turn and/or stealing artifacts.  Dack seems like The Truth, anyone have any ideas where to start tuning this list to be competitive in current vintage?

My local store runs monthly zero-proxy Vintage events.  I'd like to try this deck out at the next one.

Creatures (6)

    1 Myr Battlesphere
    1 Sundering Titan
    4 Goblin Welder

Planeswalkers (3)

    3 Dack Fayden

Lands (15)

    2 Island
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Tolarian Academy

Spells (36)

    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    4 Mana Drain
    2 Mental Misstep
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Thirst For Knowledge
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mindslaver
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

[Chubby Rain]

I don't think Sundering Titan is where you want to be. I would also recommend a Nihil Spellbomb in the main for the random anti-dredge hate and incremental value with Welder. You also might want to try a singleton Notion Thief and Memory Jar in the main, though that's a personal quirk of mine. I would also test Mindslaver as I've heard other people cut it as it's not been that great for them.

[Bibendum]

I was on 3 color Dack Slaver until I cut slaver leading up to the 92 man event in NY last week. Slaver just isn't good enough with Vault/Key around. Sure its fun as hell to Mindslaver someone but to get a lock going requires so much more set up and protection then vault key. I have been trying to play slaver for weeks. I even top 8'd before Dack using Izzet charms in the spot. I never used Slaver once the entire day. Its fun, it's amazing flavor but its just not better then vault key in about 90% of cases.

[mmcgeach]

My testing with Dack makes me think Snapcaster is extra nuts with him.  partly because its a surprise blocker for your walker.  Also because this list has so little card draw it really relies on merchant/mystical -> ancestral; and then you want to be able to snap that ancestral back later.  And lastly, it makes Gifts piles better.

Suggest:
+2 snapcaster
-1 sensei's top
-1 mana drain

[BoshNRoll]

I'm willing to believe Slaver and Titan have both been obsoleted by better cards.  And I'm willing to test Snapcaster in my blue-based make-myself-discard-cards deck. 

What should I be looking at to replace Slaver and Titan?  I like a maindeck Nihil Spellbomb.  The other spot can be something that interacts with the board.  Jace?  Lightning Bolt?  Pyrite Spellbomb might be a better bolt for the deck?  Engineered Explosives (too bad recurring these with welder doesn't do much)?  Thoughts?

[TheKidsArentAlright]

I've been messing around with a similar deck on MODO and using Steel Hellkite as my other robot.  He can be reasonably hardcast off the back of Drain/Lotus/Vault.  Connecting with him even once will often times cripple any permanent-based strategy, or at the very least clean up opposing Moxen for free.  I'm not 100% sold on him though, as he's a pretty slow clock for a Tinker target.  The other card I've considered is Inkwell Leviathan since it's near impossible to remove once it hits the table, but Hellkite has been overall better for me.

[Random Noob]

I think you need a very powerful Draw Engine. Snaps are good, but I guess not enough. Compare Welder with Bobs, and Fayden with Jace. Bob and Jace will race you in points of Cardadvantage and just outdraw you. So I am not sure how to fix that, Intuition/AK could be great, since it outdraws almost everything, and Intuition is good with Welder and Vault/Key. The other one could be running 3 Facts and saome Snaps.

[jamestosetti]

Can this deck profit from Aggressive Mining?

[Phele]

Can this deck profit from Aggressive Mining?

No, as can't any other deck in Vintage. This card is not powerful enough for this format.

[StanleyAugust]

I played a version of this last Saturday at Xtreme Games, and it felt terrible.

Way too slow and clunky versus Delver lists. Not enough countermagic to compete with Oath. Shops is the only matchup that felt good.

I agree. As I predicted when he was spoiled, Dack simply isn't powerful enough to make a difference even in a dedicated build. It can't take long before more people start realising this and stop playing him.

[Samoht]

I played a version of this last Saturday at Xtreme Games, and it felt terrible.

Way too slow and clunky versus Delver lists. Not enough countermagic to compete with Oath. Shops is the only matchup that felt good.

I agree. As I predicted when he was spoiled, Dack simply isn't powerful enough to make a difference even in a dedicated build. It can't take long before more people start realising this and stop playing him.

People are just using him wrong. He's not something to be built around. He is quite useful at certain things, but taking over games is not one of them.

[gkraigher]

I agree. As I predicted when he was spoiled, Dack simply isn't powerful enough to make a difference even in a dedicated build. It can't take long before more people start realising this and stop playing him.

StanleyAugust, I think you and I could be friends in real life.  In complete agreement. 

[msg67183]

I learned from my recent tournament that Triskelion is simply amazing against Dack Welder lists... MVP of the day

[fsecco]

I don't think Slaver is good anymore, even with Dack. Simply because of graveyard hate and Grafdigger's Cage screwing Welder reanimation.

That said, I still think Dack is a very good card - just not in the Jace TMS "I will win the game alone" level.

[Kowal]

There's no reason to hate on the archetype, as it's perfectly viable.  There's definitely a question of which builds are actually acceptable, and I think there are some flaws with the list presented in the OP.  Before I dive in too far, here's the list I ran in the vintage premiere this past weekend, which I was able to grab second place with.

Kowal NWCS

2 Goblin Welder
2 Dack Fayden
2 Baleful Strix
1 Mindslaver
1 Myr Battlesphere

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Duress
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce

4 Night's Whisper
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Fire/Ice

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Darkblast
1 Mountain
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Massacre
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Grafdigger's Cage


There are a couple points I wanted to make having had the chance to read through this thread.

1) Mindslaver is still a critical component of the deck.  Mindslaver gives you an out (which is really more like a win) against a myriad of board states and conditions that the rest of the average welder control deck has no solution for.  It's also generally a lethal activation against traditional storm, oath, gush tendrils, and hilarious against an active Forgemaster.  At only 6 mana, it's not hard to just play it, particularly if you've found Lotus, Vault, Academy, or Drain.  Cutting it is a huge mistake.

2) Dack is not an engine of the deck, or a focal point of the deck, or even a good card.  He's there because he's generally synergistic and wins a game hands down against workshop players, but living the dream of having Dack dump robots in the graveyard to be welded in by your active welder never happens.  If it ever does happen, you already won the game and you're just being cute.  What he does do that's helpful is much more subtle - He acquires another artifact for you to get another slaver activation or pump up your mana acceleration to hardcast a big dumb robot.  He eliminates the Tinker plan (unless they have Time Walk, of course) that many decks use to race your card advantage.  He occasionally gets to disrupt the Key/Vault kill which leaves a bunch of players mystified as to why their deck and all of its tutors suddenly suck.  He gets to do all this without being dead otherwise.  Don't expect him to win a game for you outright unless your opponent is playing with Lodestone Golem.

3) The deck requires a legitimate draw engine.  Trying to skirt by with Tops and restricted cards is a good way to get blown out by everybody running Confidant, Gush, and Snapcaster.  There aren't a lot of engines with any synergy to the deck, but Night's Whisper has long been a favorite of mine and is very effective.  As I mentioned in the premiere thread, it outpaces AK during the part of the game that matters the most and it's a fantastic topdeck when both control decks are spent.  It also enables some pretty rapid digging when your mana cooperates.  It has long been my (often mocked) opinion that Night's Whisper is better than Confidant unless your strategy is to punch people in the face with creatures.  That argument is based in the concept that Confidant's best-case scenario is that he survives at least two turns (finally generating a card profit) and lights you up for less than a point or two of damage.  If he continues to draw cards after that, he's either actively killing you (just ask anyone who's flipped a Force of Will) or you already took control of the game and his ability's not hugely relevant anymore.  Night's Whisper gets you those two cards right now, capped at 2 life lost, and your opponent doesn't get to know what those cards are.  It's a slam dunk, and while you can feel free to disagree with my reasoning (most do) in this deck it's critical to take NW over Bob due to the high mana curve and to take NW over Gush because you need your land drops.

4) Strix is actually really good.  I hate saying it.  I thought the card was garbage before I put it in here.  It's pure juice.  It gives you an artifact solution to getting punched in the face by Lodestone, and it kills any random attacking mook except BSC and Thalia.  Not running at least the one Strix is a mistake.  I prefer two.  It's less for welder tricks and more for giving you a cheap, blue, cantripping solution for any hate bear or angel or whatever happens to be punching your face in.


This post is getting pretty long so I'm going to clip it here, but I hope my list can help put the archetype in a different light.

[conboy31]

Whenever I get around to buying into vintage modo I am interested in something non-workshop, dredge, or fish.  Here's the differences between in the Kowal and Kotter lists.

[dangerlinto]

Kowal NWCS

Grim Lavamancer has been working well for me, and I might suggest is less awkward than Massacre out of the board.

[Zherbus]

1) Mindslaver is still a critical component of the deck.  Mindslaver gives you an out (which is really more like a win) against a myriad of board states and conditions that the rest of the average welder control deck has no solution for.  It's also generally a lethal activation against traditional storm, oath, gush tendrils, and hilarious against an active Forgemaster.  At only 6 mana, it's not hard to just play it, particularly if you've found Lotus, Vault, Academy, or Drain.  Cutting it is a huge mistake.

While I agree that even a single Mindslaver execution is generally disastrous for an opponent, I have found that being in the position of having to hardcast it and pay for the execution is a daunting task. It's not as hard as paying Blightsteel Collossus mana, but it's definitely worse than hardcasting Myr Battlesphere. One of the fluid aspects of this deck is a smoothness which is partially thanks to not running Blightsteel, but Mindslaver replaces it in the way hungover vomiting would be replaced by remaining migraine and dry heaves.

I can see cutting it, but it would have to be for something that fulfills a need to virtually win out of nowhere. Particularly because the deck runs such light board control, it can find itself in a losing situation on board, even if it's drawn half of the deck. I don't think cutting it is a mistake on a literal level, but I think something hefty would need to replace it as a one-card option. Anything else branches into talking about cutting too-crucial-to-cut slots.

2) Dack is not an engine of the deck, or a focal point of the deck, or even a good card.  He's there because he's generally synergistic and wins a game hands down against workshop players, but living the dream of having Dack dump robots in the graveyard to be welded in by your active welder never happens.  If it ever does happen, you already won the game and you're just being cute.  What he does do that's helpful is much more subtle - He acquires another artifact for you to get another slaver activation or pump up your mana acceleration to hardcast a big dumb robot.  He eliminates the Tinker plan (unless they have Time Walk, of course) that many decks use to race your card advantage.  He occasionally gets to disrupt the Key/Vault kill which leaves a bunch of players mystified as to why their deck and all of its tutors suddenly suck.  He gets to do all this without being dead otherwise.  Don't expect him to win a game for you outright unless your opponent is playing with Lodestone Golem.

This is where previous attempts at Dack Control decks went wrong. This card isn't good enough to reliably see early game or build a deck around. Most of the time that banks on having a healthy artifact presence on board and an unmolested Welder on the table.

3) The deck requires a legitimate draw engine.  Trying to skirt by with Tops and restricted cards is a good way to get blown out by everybody running Confidant, Gush, and Snapcaster.  There aren't a lot of engines with any synergy to the deck, but Night's Whisper has long been a favorite of mine and is very effective.  As I mentioned in the premiere thread, it outpaces AK during the part of the game that matters the most and it's a fantastic topdeck when both control decks are spent.  It also enables some pretty rapid digging when your mana cooperates.  It has long been my (often mocked) opinion that Night's Whisper is better than Confidant unless your strategy is to punch people in the face with creatures.  That argument is based in the concept that Confidant's best-case scenario is that he survives at least two turns (finally generating a card profit) and lights you up for less than a point or two of damage.  If he continues to draw cards after that, he's either actively killing you (just ask anyone who's flipped a Force of Will) or you already took control of the game and his ability's not hugely relevant anymore.  Night's Whisper gets you those two cards right now, capped at 2 life lost, and your opponent doesn't get to know what those cards are.  It's a slam dunk, and while you can feel free to disagree with my reasoning (most do) in this deck it's critical to take NW over Bob due to the high mana curve and to take NW over Gush because you need your land drops.

Night's Whisper is uniquely good in here. It fulfills what Dark Confidant does early game, but its a cheap burst in the late game that doesn't have to pass turns. In a deck that doesn't plan on swinging more than twice, it runs quite smooth here. I've had mulligans to 4 that a single Night's Whisper instantly fixed.

[The Atog Lord]

Kowal's deck does some very powerful things, and does them well. The deck is playing a control role effectively, with a robust draw engine. Night's Whisper gives you a draw engine on a curve, instead of needing to ramp up to four mana to start casting cards like Jace.

The obvious exclusion from the deck is Time Vault. I'm not running Time Vault in my current Gush deck because I don't have room for two spells that do nothing on its own. Oftentimes, Mindslaver is a one-card Vault-Key engine. I wonder how often running the combo would be worthwhile, but I can see the argument for excluding it. Key would be easier to justify if there were Top in the deck, but of course, there isn't.

I'd rather play more Mental Misstep than some of the other control elements in the deck, but since the card is dead against Workshops, I can see not running many copies of them.

I think the logic behind a lot of these decisions is compelling, and I'm looking forward to playing with it myself. I've already bought the cards I'd need to make this on MODO.

[Bibendum]

I felt the same way about Dack, I had him as a two of in the deck that I played at the NYSE and the subsequent event. He was good as a two of but I felt any shell that wanted to center around him felt lackluster. I really like nights whisper and I will be playing them. It allows me to play library again as I felt without Jace I didn't have enough of an engine to support Library. I still think Vault/Key just out does Slaver in most regards but I am thrilled to see one of my favorite cards ever coming back. I was tooling with Intuition or Forbidden Alchemy and I really prefer Nights Whisper over both. Kudos man. Ill be home brewing a hybrid of this with the deck I took down the Pearl with.

[xouman]

I'm pretty surprised that Mindslaver is that important. I find hard to see it nowadays as a full win condition, but that's because of my unexperience playing with it or against it. I see it as little more than a good Time Walk, I will read carefully reports with mindslaver to see how it really performs.

About night's whisper, i'm surprised it goes over deep analysis and confidant, but it has advantages of course. Aren't you afraid of spirit of the labyrinth or notion thief?

Both lists play 0 bolts. I'm pretty surprised

[Commandant]

I don't understand the exclusion of Voltaic Key/Time Vault.

[Kowal]

Simply put, a deck with Welder and two robots already has enough dead draws.  I didn't find that Vault/Key won me any games I couldn't win for any number of other reasons, whereas things like Mindslaver did.  Having Key or Vault turn up in an otherwise playable hand made that hand turn in to garbage very quickly.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Simply put, a deck with Welder and two robots already has enough dead draws.  I didn't find that Vault/Key won me any games I couldn't win for any number of other reasons, whereas things like Mindslaver did.  Having Key or Vault turn up in an otherwise playable hand made that hand turn in to garbage very quickly.

Welder is not a dead draw.  It is very good at disrupting shops and opposing vault keys and tinker bot.  It may not be ancestral #2, but it is still a very useful card.  Meshing well with Dack and robots is icing on the cake for welder.  Welder doesn't need that to still be a solid, well-rounded card.

The two robots can be dead draws for sure though.

[Kowal]

Welder is awful in the early game unless you're playing against Workshop.  He makes opening hands worse by existing.  Until you've had a chance to set up and accomplish some things in the early and mid game, he's a dead draw.  He still makes the cut because he's backbreaking in the late game and is fantastic against workshops, but he's among the four cards I loathe seeing the most when I need a juicy draw.

[xouman]

I find welder a great T1 play. It allows smooth curving, being active on T2. Of course if you are not playing dedicats artifacts its power decreases a lot, also fow needs blue cards and tinker needs artifacts. Welder attracts bots, stp, missteps.

I think I could even play possessed portal over mindslaver (I'm not saying is better, it's just an opinion!?). With dack you quickly empty opponent's hand, has obv beautiful synergy with welder, is tinkerable, and of course drains are welcome.

[Zherbus]

MtgVector has been using Staff of Nin to good effect. He top 8'd the same event. His list is less draw heavy, more action heavy. Both seem to be working very well. Personally, I've only been playing with the Kowal-shell and I love the card draw.

[enderfall]

MtgVector has been using Staff of Nin to good effect. He top 8'd the same event. His list is less draw heavy, more action heavy. Both seem to be working very well. Personally, I've only been playing with the Kowal-shell and I love the card draw.

MtgVector is not a Slaver list, it's more of a 4-color Control list. Not sure which I like better, Slaver, or Control.

[Random Noob]

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Shivan Reef
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Ancient Tomb

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Memory Jar
1 Mindslaver
3 Triskelion
2 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Inkwell Leviathan

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere

4 Dack Fayden
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Goblin Welder
4 Master Transmuter

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Jester's Cap

This is what I am currently at. If you don't want Mud to win, this Shop List should do a good Job. In the Tezz Meta some years ago, this has seen a lot of play in Germany, and was doing pretty well. It wasn't able to regenerate the lose of Thirst for Knowledge. like most Vault Combo Decks were able to. While Fayden fills TFK, it get an huge upswing vs Mud. Also, you can pretty easy say Chalice@2, if you worry about Welder. That are Mud decks not fluent able to. since Chalice2 blocks about 12 Slots themself.

[rickster]

What are some of the common gifts piles for this deck?