M15 Jace, the Living Guildpact

[John Cox]

Usually I wouldn't post a Planeswalker with the same cost as Jace The Mind Sculpor unless it was better, however, I think this may be.

Importantly The +1 puts the card in your graveyard, where snapcaster and other shenanigans can profit from it. It's also important to that the +1 is a +1 and not 0. The protection ability seems better too.

[gkraigher]

There are three qualifications for a planeswalker in vintage, in order of importance.

1) does the card generate card advantage?  

No

2) does the card protect itself?

Yes

3) does the card win have a win condition?

Yes

a 4 CC card needs to generate some form of card advantage, and this one does not.  

[vaughnbros]

This card is barely even playable in draft...

[gkraigher]

The fact that he is a Jace makes him worse, and he was already pretty bad. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

There are three qualifications for a planeswalker in vintage, in order of importance.

1) does the card generate card advantage?  

No

2) does the card protect itself?

Yes

3) does the card win have a win condition?

Yes

a 4 CC card needs to generate some form of card advantage, and this one does not.  

I think this is BS.  I think the guy has SOME benefits in the right shell.  Welder and snap would like this guy.  His butt is big, so a tad harder to kill off the bat than JtMS.  He has a neat removal ability as stated.  But when we're grading a 4cc planeswalker, let's be real.  It's fine to SAY the 3 criteria above are what people should look at, but in reality, look back through the plethura of threads on Kiora, Dack, etc, etc, etc, insert planeswalker name here.  The 3 criteria people look at in Vintage (and faultily so) are:

1) Is this guy as good as or better than JtMS?
2) Is this guy as good as or better than JtMS?
3) Is this guy as good as or better than JtMS?

I think this guy has playability in a shell built for him (and many similarities to a shell Dack would be in)...but let's be honest about the criteria this or any walker is judged against by the vast majority.

[Eastman]

This is much worse than Jace TMS in several obvious ways.  You don't even get to draw the other card!  And the only thing he does that TMS doesn't is drop something in the yard, but his ability on that is strictly worse than Dack and numerous other Vintage payables.  

Not vintage playable.

[bactgudz]

I think this guy is deceptively good in weaker formats...but jtms he is nowhere near

[JarofFortune]

WIth Jace The Mind Sculptor you can also Unsummon up to three times, although it will die after 3, but with this Jace you literally can only do it once before pulsing. JTMS also lets you draw the cards to cast them before you snap caster them back, and the non land permanent clause is rarely going to be relevant. Jace is most threatened by creatures.

[Protoaddict]

I like that its Jace because it makes my decision much easier. With other 4-drop walkers, you can get away with using stuff that is typically worse than JTMS because they can be in play at the same time as Jace. So Kiora, Ral, etc can play with Jace because they are not Jace. This guys is mutually exclusive with him.

This is Jace. Is it better than JTMS? No it is not and almost in a strict sense because it is trying to do the same things. Starting at the bottom:

- The ultimate does not win the game. Its close, but a one sided timetwister is not game winning in and of itself.
- The bounce has a wider avenue of attack but a disproportionately higher cost. Remember that JTMS can unsummon 3 times from play, this dude gets 1. JTMSes plus ability allows you to unsummon 2 more times, this lets you do it 1/3 more.
- JTMS gains Loyalty much faster which can get him out of burn or creature range faster. This guy starts with more but gains much slower.
- This guy provides 0 card advantage untill ultimate.
- This guys scry variant is self only

And yes this guy can do welder where JTMS could not, but JTMS is so damn efficient he will allow you to do more to enable a wielder with other cards he grants you in a more viable way.

End of story, this dude is not playable in vintage, you would have to show me that literally 4 other jaces were worse than this first before I even glanced at this. Maybe RAV block Jace is worse, but all the others are clearly either better or fit a different niche much better than this guy.

[Saya]

Ok let us assume that we play this Jace in certain decks.Then won't you replace it with Jace the Mind Sculptor?Or you run 4 copies of JTMS already?

[TheWhiteDragon]

No, this guy is certainly worse than JtMS and most likely not playable in most decks - if any.  I just thought it fair to note that the criteria for any 4cc planeswalker is "is this as good or better than jtMS" and not some other pretend criterion.

[Demagoguery]

This card just seems really weak for the cost. What does it really do that wouldn't be done better by running more Jace TMS, Dack, Ral, Tezz 2.0, and so on. To be completely honest I'd almost view Wildspeaker as a better turn 1 play off Lotus, since you basically make a 3/3 and then have up to 4 mana turn 2 for whatever, which is pretty strong, especially with creatures becoming better.

Let's look at the card:

+1: Pseudo card advantage, some cool interactions, not bad. Sadly it doesn't do all that much without other cards, it doesn't even Scry all that well. Flipping two dead cards, or worse flipping two really good cards, isn't optimal with this guy. You can't use it on your opponent either.

-3: I guess it bounces things like Pithing Needle and Oath, but at -3 loyalty it just feels awful. You get to use this once, before you have to plus it, and even in Vintage it will hit creatures usually, and that's so much worse than bouncing three times with Jace TMS.

-8: Ideally you should win off this, but you could just brick and still lose. Sad times. With the other two mediocre abilities that are worse than the best Jace, it just feels like this ultimate makes it fall that much further behind other Jaces.  

[xouman]

The first time I read it I thought you were drawing the card not discarded with the first ability, and I still thought it was worse than Jtms. Since it does not draw the card... Probably the worst jace around, and we have some... Having the same cost and name as mindsculptor makes him worse most of the time.

[vaughnbros]

I think this guy is deceptively good in weaker formats...but jtms he is nowhere near

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this guy is Tibalt level of bad.  It's essentially a 4 mana sorcery speed chain of vapor that sticks around for some pseudo card advantage.

[zeus-online]

Honestly... i don't get why people get excited over this guy.

I'd rather run the original Jace beleren than this. At least that guy nets me some cards and costs one mana less. This guy is like an overcosted sensei's top with a bad unsummon tagged on.

[Meddling Mike]

Have a seat around the campfire kids. I'm gonna tell you a story about Jace. I remember way back in the day, oh, musta been back in the Worldwake days when Planeswalkers were brand new, they had this Jace that came out and some folks didn't like him. "He's 4 mana for a bounce spell" they said. "He'll never see Vintage play!". As it turns out, this is the 4 mana Jace they were talking about. Story over. Thread over. Let's go talk about some cards that might actually see serious Vintage play.
-MM