[SCG Premium] UW Stoneforge in Vintage by Drew Levin

[Chubby Rain]

For those interested, the article is available at http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28853_Video-UW-Stoneforge-In-Vintage.html. There are videos, most of which show Drew being thrashed by the online metagame of Shops, Oath, and Dredge. It requires a premium account on Star City to watch the games, which may be worthwhile if they continue to produce vintage articles.

While I don't want to relay too much of the article as it is premium, several of Drew's conclusions are interesting topics of discussion. Namely,

1) Mana Drain is not as good as advertised.

2) The creatures in the Blue Angels deck are inferior to other creatures in Vintage such as Dark Confidant and Trygon Predator and the deck plays too fair of a game compared to the broken decks.

3) To directly quote Drew, "I'm pretty sure that Vintage is at the beginning stages of what Legacy went through circa Grand Prix Chicago (or Schaumburg, or whatever). People who are just way better at Magic are going to come into the format without all of the preconceptions that Vintage players currently hold about the "metagame," play a ton of games, and figure out powerful angles that break apart all the existing conventional wisdoms about the format."

I have my own thoughts about these but have to go to work. Hopefully, the discussion gets started and I can jump in down the line.

P.S. Drew was running Vasu's list from the NYSE available here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46493.0

[hashswag]

2) The creatures in the Blue Angels deck are inferior to other creatures in Vintage such as Dark Confidant and Trygon Predator and the deck plays too fair of a game compared to the broken decks.

Ironically, I find from playing the Blue Angels deck that the matchups vs these 'broken' decks like Grixis, Oath, Storm, MUD, Dredge, etc are generally pretty good. It's the fair decks like Merfolk, White Trash and Humans that it really struggles with.

[Samoht]

I'd have to look specifically at his list and at his choices to comment specifically, but if the field is Shops, Rods, and Dredge with Blue sprinkled in, Strixis is the deck to play, not Angels. Drain isn't the problem with blue underperformance, it's what it is built into.

[vaughnbros]

I can't read the article since Im not a premium user, but basically we are all terrible magic players and the so called "good" players are now going to come in and dominate the format?  This is all being derived from him playing a metagame deck in the wrong meta?  Seems about right...

[hashswag]

I can't read the article since Im not a premium user, but basically we are all terrible magic players and the so called "good" players are now going to come in and dominate the format?  This is all being derived from him playing a metagame deck in the wrong meta?  Seems about right...

Yeah, I thought this was pretty insulting too, to be honest.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's the same insult some of us having throwing around for a while. When you think you know what's best, you trap yourself in a local optimum that may or may not be globally optimal. Look at how poorly the community fared at evaluating Dark Confidant and Jace TMS. They thought they knew how to build blue. I don't remember anyone boohooing Lodestone Golem, though.

It'll be interesting to see what they can really do, though. It's one thing to say the meta's underdeveloped. It's another thing to consistently beat Doomsday, Shops, UR(g) Delver, and Oath. We already have several tuned decks that can consistently put the game away on turn 2 if you're unprepared.

[Tutor]

Will be nice to see "good mtg players" in vintage, but its hard to face "good vintage players".

[Chubby Rain]

Yeah, I found his language condescending. It's one thing to say that more people and more pros playing Vintage will lead.to.more innovation. It's another to put down the player base and format.

@samoht- He was running Vasu's list from NYSE.

[MTGFan]

This guy really doesn't know what he is talking about.

Mana Drain overrated? It's one of the best tempo tools every printed. If anything, it's underrated.

The "Pros" didn't come into Legacy and change the archetypes, either. Some Pros have done well in Legacy tournaments over the years, but mostly with decks that have been developed and tuned by dedicated Legacy players.

[The Atog Lord]

I watched the first game and then stopped. Here was my response, posted on the page. I don't know if non-premium folks can see it, so I'll reproduce it here.

Hi Drew. I'm very glad to see that you are writing about Vintage!

I watched the first game of this. I think that unfamiliarity with the decks in the format, and in particular the matchup against Workshop, makes playing an admittedly underpowered deck like this much more difficult. On the first turn, playing the Mana Crypt deals at most 3 damage to you. But, it means you get two more mana and it can arrive for free. The opponent can have spheres or even a Chalice on the next turn. For the Disenchant, you really should have hit the Forgemaster. What happened next -- having your lands destroyed by a Titan, was entirely predictable.

Here is my own writeup about the deck, where I talk about some of the decisions that go into it.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46395.0

The deck is underpowered, but it isn't made out of any particular misunderstanding. Rather, as with many such decks, it is a response to a specific metagame. In a metagame full of creatures and planeswalkers, a deck like this is extremely powerful as a response. This might differ from the Magic Online metagame, of course.

I do disagree with your assessment that Vintage decks are being terribly misbuilt, but I do think we can always do a better job of building them. My hope is that the influx of new players will lead to better decks. Drew, in a world of Mishra's Workshop, I would be very interested to see what you come up with to combat the field. I suspect Goblin Welder may be involved. That said, despite quite a bit of experimentation, I've yet to come up with a Neo Control Slaver build that I'm entirely happy with.

[diopter]

Disappointing comment (assuming it's not taken out of context)

IIRC, Zvi M said pros would overrun a partciular SCG Power 9, only to finish in the bottom half himself.

On the other hand, back in the day Sullivan Solution was insane.

I prefer to listen to the pros that actually succeed in winning Vintage matches

[KanaKaishou]

I watched the first game and then stopped. Here was my response, posted on the page. I don't know if non-premium folks can see it, so I'll reproduce it here.

Hi Drew. I'm very glad to see that you are writing about Vintage!

I watched the first game of this. I think that unfamiliarity with the decks in the format, and in particular the matchup against Workshop, makes playing an admittedly underpowered deck like this much more difficult. On the first turn, playing the Mana Crypt deals at most 3 damage to you. But, it means you get two more mana and it can arrive for free. The opponent can have spheres or even a Chalice on the next turn. For the Disenchant, you really should have hit the Forgemaster. What happened next -- having your lands destroyed by a Titan, was entirely predictable.

Here is my own writeup about the deck, where I talk about some of the decisions that go into it.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46395.0

The deck is underpowered, but it isn't made out of any particular misunderstanding. Rather, as with many such decks, it is a response to a specific metagame. In a metagame full of creatures and planeswalkers, a deck like this is extremely powerful as a response. This might differ from the Magic Online metagame, of course.

I do disagree with your assessment that Vintage decks are being terribly misbuilt, but I do think we can always do a better job of building them. My hope is that the influx of new players will lead to better decks. Drew, in a world of Mishra's Workshop, I would be very interested to see what you come up with to combat the field. I suspect Goblin Welder may be involved. That said, despite quite a bit of experimentation, I've yet to come up with a Neo Control Slaver build that I'm entirely happy with.

Thanks for putting thag in a more civil tone than I ever would, Rich. I mean, there weren't quite personal attacks in the comments, but suffice to say I've not had a deck I've done well with called a giant steaming pile before. Welcome to the internet, I guess. 

Also, the deck as he played it is so reliant on getting lucky. I'm definitely on 24 sources minimum, and 25, as Rich originally played may well be the optimal number.

[Samoht]

I had to PM Drew. I have been acquainted with him for a few years and this article is atypical of my interactions with him. We'll see what comes of it, but I wager he is willing to engage in a dialogue.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I'd have to look specifically at his list and at his choices to comment specifically, but if the field is Shops, Rods, and Dredge with Blue sprinkled in, Strixis is the deck to play, not Angels. Drain isn't the problem with blue underperformance, it's what it is built into.

Landstill would probably be pretty good also, since the blue decks appear to be mostly oath and people play rituals. Dredge is worrisome though.

[Samoht]

I'd have to look specifically at his list and at his choices to comment specifically, but if the field is Shops, Rods, and Dredge with Blue sprinkled in, Strixis is the deck to play, not Angels. Drain isn't the problem with blue underperformance, it's what it is built into.

Landstill would probably be pretty good also, since the blue decks appear to be mostly oath and people play rituals. Dredge is worrisome though.

My concern was the purported presence of Dredge. I haven't looked at the meta specifics, but only through the stories of my friends that have been playing and their comments. Landstill is better against Oath and worse against Dredge. That's a choice to be made.

[vaughnbros]

Pack enough hate and a draft deck can compete with dredge.

[Samoht]

Pack enough hate and a draft deck can compete with dredge.

Not that I disagree with you, but you also want to have enough things to deal with other decks too.

[JarofFortune]

"Preconceptions"? Yeah, thanks for the analysis. Its really helpful coming from a guy who has played 8 games of Vintage. People who are just better at magic? Lets just take this at face value. Vintage is still not a GP or PTQ format. Do you really think pros are going to spend their time trying to break this format? Vintage being on mtgo barely changes anything. If pros like Drew are destined to show us Vintage Players how to really build decks, why haven't they already done this? I try to look at things from the other person's perspective when I disagree with them, but all I can see from Drew's side is Hubris and a sense of broken pride from being destroyed by "players who are worse at Magic".

Edit: I may have been too harsh on Drew; I was having a very crappy day when I  saw his comments. I'll still maintain that his response was full of hubris and exaggerated, but to be fair he was pretty tilted.

[Hrishi]

I can certainly see how people who have never played vintage before could come into the format and brew differently without holding onto preconceptions that current players already have. To claim that the current decks are misbuilt and that people who enter the format will break it seems excessive and hubristic, however. I don't have premium but at the very least I can see the comments to the article.

[vaughnbros]

Pack enough hate and a draft deck can compete with dredge.

Hmm, i wonder what set would provide you with that much hate?
Is there a force of will, duress, wasteland, null rod set?

Huh?  I meant take a draft deck from any set add 15 dredge hate cards as a sideboard and you can beat 90% of dredge players.

[Zherbus]

It's the same rhetoric that we've been hearing since the early 2000s. "If pros put their mind to it, the Vintage metagame would be totally be split apart because these filthy casuals don't know how to build their decks." Meanwhile, many of us are consulted by those same pros when they're up for events or whatever. Many pros have been working with us for over a decade now.

We have many pro players who are long time Vintage fans. Chapin, Duke, Williams, Ochoa, LSV, and more. These guys have been just as much a part of this journey we've been on as any of us. The decks now and always can always be better polished. I fully believe this. THAT is the fun part of Vintage; you get to flex some creativity and have it matter. And you get a variety of the Magic-playing pedigree doing it.

[Tutor]

thats why i back to vintage. I stoped mtg for 4 or more years and now I see same decks I used to play IRL, with some upgrades ofc.He must understand that MTGO meta is diferent from real MTG.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's the same rhetoric that we've been hearing since the early 2000s. "If pros put their mind to it, the Vintage metagame would be totally be split apart because these filthy casuals don't know how to build their decks."

In fairness, it took how long for GushBond to catch on? There was a time when 4x Merchant Scroll, 4x Gush, 4x Brainstorm was legal and people were only playing 1x Merchant Scroll. Let that sink in. Now remember that 4x Necropotence was also legal and nobody was playing that either, except maybe in "suicide black."

I think that the introduction of Gro-a-tog and a "deck to beat" that, unlike Keeper, was actually good is what changed things.

[Demonic Attorney]

I'm pretty sure that Vintage is at the beginning stages of what Legacy went through circa Grand Prix Chicago (or Schaumburg, or whatever). People who are just way better at Magic are going to come into the format without all of the preconceptions that Vintage players currently hold about the "metagame," play a ton of games, and figure out powerful angles that break apart all the existing conventional wisdoms about the format.

I remember when Zvi Mowshowitz said pretty much exactly this before the Pros vs. Vintage players contest at the Rochester Shooting Stars P9 event.  Spoiler alert:  Zvi's Pro Tour acumen enabled him to go around to TMD'ers begging for lists, and then scrub out.  I don't think the Pro Tour crowd will be bringing us any paradigm shifts anytime soon.

[Zherbus]

It's the same rhetoric that we've been hearing since the early 2000s. "If pros put their mind to it, the Vintage metagame would be totally be split apart because these filthy casuals don't know how to build their decks."

In fairness, it took how long for GushBond to catch on? There was a time when 4x Merchant Scroll, 4x Gush, 4x Brainstorm was legal and people were only playing 1x Merchant Scroll. Let that sink in. Now remember that 4x Necropotence was also legal and nobody was playing that either, except maybe in "suicide black."

I think that the introduction of Gro-a-tog and a "deck to beat" that, unlike Keeper, was actually good is what changed things.

It's a good point, but I would like to think that through opening TMD, starting the proxy scene, generating a lot of interest in Vintage, the birth of Vintage champs and even considering the relative lull in Vintage, that there is a significant difference between 2002-2003 era and 2014. What you speak of then was really the breaking point where nobody wanted to listed to Chapin's Gro idea and the acceptance of new and breaking ideas in Vintage.

[TheKidsArentAlright]

While I won't deny that this was probably the worst Premium article I've ever read I don't think some of the extremely harsh criticism he received is entirely warranted based solely on this one piece.  Watching the videos several things were readily apparent.  First, he did not do any homework regarding his deck choice or the expected metagame.  Shops and Oath are currently the top dogs online and Blue Angels faces an uphill but not unwinnable battle against both of those decks.  As others have said, he played a metagame deck in the wrong metagame and did not know he was doing so.  I think he is so used to getting away with minimal preparation in Legacy because he knows the format so well and was expecting it to translate into Vintage.  Also, he did not playtest the deck at all prior to recording.  This led to some glaring mistakes against Shops on his part like leaving Mindbreak Trap in, Disenchanting a Lodestone Golem when there was a Kuldotha Forgemaster on the table representing Sundering Titan next turn, and keeping a 1 lander.  I also remember him not respecting the Abrupt Decay on his Grafdigger's Cage vs. Oath.  Finally, it's clear that he was on tilt in the later videos and, I assume, that's when he wrote his summary.  Now, I don't know the guy personally, but I've read most of his articles and this behavior is atypical even when he loses (see: Astral Slide in Legacy).  Maybe the guy was having a bad day and his games just exacerbated it.  Based on past articles I'm willing to overlook this isolated incident so long as it remains isolated.  Instead, I hope it serves as a wake up call to him and drives better articles in the future.

[jamestosetti]

I think his response, as negative as it may seem is a pretty natural and common response to what he experienced, especially with the deck he was playing. I don't know how many people I have seen type those same words in games, and I have thought most of those things at some point in time. One will eventually realize that the format is generally just performing extremely efficiently without regard for how cool a card could be if it were played. I remember the first time I saw Restoration Angel played in Vintage. I thought if this guy played it I am probably just going to win with it. I was fairly disappointed with how it played, and I was told the same thing that everyone is saying now. It is meant for a certain meta game. I am assuming it is for ambushing hate bears.

I just started working with vintage decks again today. After a long break I finally realize that it is better to view decks, individual cards, and strategies objectively, rather than just evaluating power level. I have found it is still extremely difficult to develop new decks and strategies, and it probably involves researching cards as they are released. I guess in my spare time I will be trying to develop something new, practice existing decks, and continue working on TPS.

[hashswag]

Does anyone else think that the Blue Angels deck is more than just a metagame deck? It's pretty flexible if you need to mix things up a bit for a particular meta and has loads of answers for every deck out there.

[Samoht]

Resto has many uses, from killing Jace and Bob and even LSG to clocking people.

[jamestosetti]

I can see why its good now. Its pretty much for the same purpose as I was using it in Modern u/w control for. You can ambush creatures, clock, blink the clique to pressure the opponents hand, and blink the Snapcaster Mage. This card probably is very effective in Vintage.