Vintage Masters Limited ends on July 25th

[Zherbus]

http://community.wizards.com/forum/magic-online-general/threads/4110251

With the exception of the two events listed below, the MTGO team has decided to remain on the previously messaged VMA events and product schedule. We apologize for the confusion, and are happy to announce that the majority of VMA events will remain on MTGO until the release of Khans of Tarkir in the fall. Vintage events will continue indefinitely. Currently, there will be no change to entry fee or prizes. Again, we apologize for the miscommunication. 
 
The following Vintage and VMA events will remain after 7/25. 
 
Queues: 
Vintage 2-player Constructed   
Vintage 8-player Constructed 
VMA 8-4 Draft 
VMA Swiss Draft 
 
Scheduled: 
Vintage Premier Constructed w/ Top 8 
Vintage Constructed Dailies 
VMA Premier Sealed w/ Top 8 
VMA Sealed Dailies 
 
Championships:   
Vintage Limited Qualifiers 8/13-8/19/14 
Vintage Limited Finals 8/23/14 
Vintage Constructed Qualifiers 8/20-8/26/14 
Vintage Constructed Finals 8/30/14 
 
The following events will be retired on 7/25:   
VMA 4-3-2-2 Draft 
VMA Swiss Sealed 

[Smmenen]

Hopefully, that will mean more players in the long run because of more accessible prices.

[diopter]

Seems really poorly handled by the MTGO crew.

Though, as a general rule, "buy now or buy never" is just not a wise principle upon which to base a financial decision.

[Twiedel]

To be honest, I am not so much concerned financially ... I upped my VMA cards to playsets after that announcement, but I did so anyway to keep the cards for a long time.

What I find truly disturbing is that such information as "how long will a product be available" changes on a daily basis. I am really happy once again to be a Vintage player, not a Standard player that is affected by stuff like this regularly.

I think if I wouldn't be in already with a vintage collection, I'd probably have my trust destroyed at this point and would just skip it completely.

[bactgudz]

There is a long standing rule on mtgo that says "if you are not sure how something will be handled, then prepare for the worst possible way you imagine it could be and you will still end up disappointed"

There is a reason "blame Worth" is a thing.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

@Rich many things could have changed that could killed the power overnight. I agree Wizards messed up on this one but its not their job to insure your purchase. Other decisions can be made by wizards or factors that they don't control that affects the format and dives the price of power online. Whether it was a announcement snafu or that was a cover this is not the first time a business especially a game company (including wizards) decided to extend their run of something sought after. The last couple of days might leave a bad taste in your mouth and other who share the same sentiment but you have to agree lower prices will just benefit the format in the future. Espcially when Hurkyls, Misdy, Show and Tell, Wasteland, and others are going to hit 100 tickets each soon. Even thought I got my set of power completely though drafting I still value it...but I dont care that the prices on it are going down %40 if it could add half a dozen people to the constructed events.

Even with faulty information I consider your purchase a panic buy one of the many that spiked the prices this week. Especially since you have expressed your distaste for the client. Black lotus was 130 dollars for a solid 1-2 weeks where were you then? If you were waiting on the prices to settle or you thought you had more time I dont have much sympathy.  I know wizards considers the secondary market in a lot of their decisions but I do not believe they are bound to always consider the secondary market when it comes to the online client  (because the card availability gets/needs to be repaired at larger rates then IRL).  Did this really burn you that bad as you described on the wizards site? How much could you have lost on a 1k purchase (but still have received some goods) that this did it for you.  Buying magic cards are always a gamble and you never have the best possible information (even if you think you do). I just feel as one of the true representatives of the format (along with Smenen and others) you should pick your battles so your opinion always has max impact and I dont think you should have contacted them on this one.  I also know you know that cheaper prices will benefit everyone and that you have an audience with people at wizards (because of the mana drain) and you used it to tell them you lost a couple hundred dollars. That seems selfish.

I hope you can get over this and the client and still attempt to play the format. Honestly I found most people love playing online and I hope you'll be around online.

Though, as a general rule, "buy now or buy never" is just not a wise principle upon which to base a financial decision.

  Well said Diopter

[Samoht]

^ Wasteland and Misdirection have been over $100 tickets since it was confirmed they weren't in VMA.

[The Atog Lord]

its not their job to insure your purchase

No. But it is their job not to say something and then go against what they have said. I never asked for my purchase not to tank. And I don't even care about that. I care about Wizards saying one thing and then doing another.

I consider your purchase a panic buy

Perhaps it is. But this panic was in no small part caused by the misinformation that Wizards disseminated. Again, Wizards is not obligated to stop me from feeling panic. But I contend that they are obligated not to deceive me.

How much could you have lost on a 1k purchase

This isn't about losing money. I don't care as much about that as I care about how poorly Wizards handled this.

you used it to tell them you lost a couple hundred dollars

If that is how my post came across, then I've worded it poorly. It isn't about losing money. It is about losing money because either Wizards intentionally misled us, or Wizards is managing this so very poorly that they can plan a couple of months in advance. I don't care about the money on this one. I care about how badly this all has been going.

[Greg]

My point is that players should have an option not to gamble on stock market if they don't want to.

Wizards business model unfortunately has been written that way and to me it's wrong for the "Game". I don't believe this model is sustainable for any constructed Eternal formats. For that reason, I don't think Vintage will suddenly reborn thanks to MTGO. Of course, interest will spike for a little while and very soon people will get priced out and interest will drop. Only a few hardcore players will stay hooked same as Paper MTG.

Simply put and well stated.

[Coopes]

Eh, I think a lot more people will stay playing Vintage on MTGO than paper and I don't think it's fair to compare the 2. Getting priced out isn't that much of an issue when the decks are 15k+ in paper and 1500 online. With this reversal announcement we are going to see prices fall to new lows, which should open the window for an even wider range of players to delve into Vintage constructed. While I agree that what WOTC is doing is the wrong way to do it, I simply think the future of eternal formats like Vintage are through MTGO, not in paper. I realize this may be a controversial topic, especially on these forums.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I just posted this on the Wizards Community board:

Dear folks behind Magic Online,

I would like to convey the amount of damage that this turnabout has caused to me, and other people who have been hoping simply to enjoy your product and your game. I am a long-time Vintage player who has avoided Magic Online primarily because of my concerns about the user interface and the cost. Yesterday, once the announcement was made to discontinue VMA drafts in the course of a few weeks, I started to notice that the price of Vintage cards in Magic Online were rising quickly. While I do have my concerns about the client, if this is where the future of my beloved Vintage format was going to be, then I wanted to be a part of that. I felt I needed to move in before the prices put Vintage Online forever out of reach of a student such as myself. So, yesterday, I acquired a large number of Magic Online cards. In the past 24 hours, I've invested over $1000 of cards and cash into Vintage Online. And I am not the only person who did this.

Now, just one day after moving a large amount of my own net worth into Magic Online because of what I was told by Worth and the rest of the Magic Online team, we are being told that yesterday's announcement was a lie. A lie that resulted in a lot of money being funneled into Magic Online. I say lie, rather than an honest mistake, because Worth not only stated that VMA drafts would end, but also confirmed that they would end and even gave his reasoning for their ending. Indeed, I felt especially comfortable moving my money into Magic Online because of Worth's statement, "the rationale is that I want to make sure they stay special, and revered." If what you said yesterday was not, in fact, a lie, then the fix is simple -- simply say that you are discontinuing the drafts as you said that you would.

And now, after clearly stating that VMA drafts would end in July, and explaining why this would happen, merely 24 hours later, we are being told that the drafts will not end in July, but will instead continue into the fall. This has huge implications for those of us who bought into Magic Online since yesterday's announcement. Perhaps this was a deceptive marketing practice to lure more money and players into Magic Online. Certainly, that was the effect that this had on me and other Vintage players. Perhaps, instead, Wizards decided that they were simply making too much money from VMA drafts to stop them. In either case, you should stick by what you said yesterday and halt the VMA drafts. I, and a number of other fans of the game with limited means, trusted your word and made hefty financial decisions based on that word. We are now being punished for listening to you and believing you. Worth, saying that you will do without ice cream will not solve this. In fact, that tweet is insulting to those of us who are watching our newly acquired Magic Online cards shed value while you are forced to make due with frozen yogurt.
 
Rich Shay

I imagine the response would go something like this:

Dear Rich and all other vintage buyers,

Our cleverly devised scam honest mistake is regretable...mainly for you.  It had the expected unforseen outcome of causing droves of people to buy in to MTGO at spiking prices.  However this is good for the format, so be happy! We feel for your pains and will be driving our newly purchased ferraris careful not to mislead in the future.

Regards suckers,
MTGO team

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Wasteland and Misdirection have been over $100 tickets since it was confirmed they weren't in VMA.

Nope I can still find you misdy for 70-75 and wasteland for 85-95. But they will be over 100 soon. People may pay more now but they aren't using the right vendors PM me if your looking Dixon.

If that is how my post came across, then I've worded it poorly.

Yea it sounds like it when you use words like moving a large amount of my "net worth"

I acknowledged that in my first post that Wizards messed up. I wasn't just talking bout money the other points I were trying to make were

1. Its impractical to make a gaming company always stick to their release schedule. The tournament structure and set releases are a live experiment thats always running and its planned in the long term. Live adjustments need to be made all the time.
2. Its a gaming company first collectibles company second and managing supply/demand and disseminating their cards is more important than protecting you from potential loss. Especially because magic online has so many card availability issues. Even if they contradict themselves. Id rather have the constant tinkering they believe is correct than be locked into things because having to guarantee everything.
3. Its ok for wizards to take the secondary market online into account but that shouldn't be the reason they make/dont make decisions that may need to be done. 
4. And you never answered why you didn't buy them when lotus was 130 and moxes were 55-70?
5. And most importantly the part you never responded too. There are many many more people happy the cards are coming back for a whole summer than they are ones upset about being shafted.  Your personal stake in the cards aside you have platform to be heard because TheManaDrain and the respect of other players. I feel like the mothership and our community associates you as a a vintage voice, and your complaining with an opinion in the minority very loudly and sadly they might hear you and think thats what everyone wants. And if you truly dont care about the money in this issue then it doesnt make sense why you wouldn't come to terms with this and respect that increased circulation is a good thing. It can double or even triple the amount of people who start playing in the next six months. Im not saying your doing it on purpose or you dont have the right to be upset. Although when you post openly on the mothership people dont read it as just your post and I think your using your podium to complain instead of helping your fellow gamers.

[Thecheese]

Yeah, when people are putting buy ads for 105-110...I really doubt there's vendors selling wastelands for 90-95.

[The Atog Lord]

First, if there are vendors selling wasteland for under $100, please PM me who they are.

Second, I agree that my post could have been written to convey the points I'm trying to make more clearly. I brought up money in the post to show that what Wizards is dealing with is not a trifling thing. It never was the money that made me upset, but I do think that having that much invested means that deception on that front is less tolerable. For what it's worth, if Wizards decided simply to start giving out random copies of Power cards on Magic Online, and that lead to more people playing Vintage, then great. I'd lose value and I wouldn't care. It's the deception that gets me.

Let me address the point by posting what I just posted on the mothership.

Now, I will say this. I love Vintage. I got into Magic Online, despite not liking the interface, because I wanted to be able to play that format more often. My concern is that seeing Wizards going back on what they say without any consequence stronger than skipping dessert will be bad for convincing older Vintage players to trust in the online version of their game. Part of having a viable Eternal format is trusting the people behind that format.  I want to see Vintage thriving in whatever form it takes, so getting more Vintage cards out there is not a bad thing. I'm honestly perfectly happy to see the value of my cards falling if it means lots more people will be playing Vintage. But this whole incident was managed very, very badly by the folks behind Magic Online.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

First, if there are vendors selling wasteland for under $100, please PM me who they are.

Add Ashok and AwfulAshok and ill do some digging later.  I guess your right older players have to trust the client to transition into it..but the old heads also have to remember the online version and the day to day operations are different and similar to what you have been experiencing this week. I think there will be growing pains on both sides getting used to the other. I also still maintain live on the fly decisions like this are vital to maintain magic online even if it unpopular.

Yeah, when people are putting buy ads for 105-110...I really doubt there's vendors selling wastelands for 90-95.

Looking that those trading boards is a waste of time for the most part its people fishing for both buyers/sellers who are suckers. Minimum 10-15% markup on cards and even higher on cards worth less than 20 dollars. People use it punish traders who haven't learned other avenues of finding and getting rid of cards yet. I believe also most of the trades online happen without the message boards.

[Chubby Rain]

And now, after clearly stating that VMA drafts would end in July, and explaining why this would happen, merely 24 hours later, we are being told that the drafts will not end in July, but will instead continue into the fall. This has huge implications for those of us who bought into Magic Online since yesterday's announcement. Perhaps this was a deceptive marketing practice to lure more money and players into Magic Online. Certainly, that was the effect that this had on me and other Vintage players. Perhaps, instead, Wizards decided that they were simply making too much money from VMA drafts to stop them. In either case, you should stick by what you said yesterday and halt the VMA drafts. I, and a number of other fans of the game with limited means, trusted your word and made hefty financial decisions based on that word. We are now being punished for listening to you and believing you. Worth, saying that you will do without ice cream will not solve this. In fact, that tweet is insulting to those of us who are watching our newly acquired Magic Online cards shed value while you are forced to make due with frozen yogurt.
 
Rich Shay

What about the people who made their decisions based on the initial announcement? Why should Wizards honor the second announcement instead of the first? Rich, you were obviously upset by this and I don't blame you but the reason for this change was not "a deceptive marketing practice". Wizards does not make money on the secondary market and none of the money you spent buying in goes directly to them. Instead, it was a response to the large amount of backlash from MTGO players who also felt betrayed by the mismanagement/miscommunication/incompetence involved in this debacle. Rather than saying "you should stick by what you said yesterday and halt the VMA drafts" which you seem to have defaulted to because of your financial investment, I think this is an opportunity to say "You bungled this situation royally. What steps are you going to take so that this doesn't happen again."

[The Atog Lord]

Rain, did they have a prior announcement stating that Vintage Masters drafts would continue through the Fall? If so, please link me to that. If they did that, then it would most likely be a case of incompetence rather than deception. Not good either way, but I would feel less like they were deceiving me if they were in fact sticking with something they had originally said.

[Chubby Rain]

Not explicitly: The link below points to the initial release information which states "There has been some concern in the community that Magic Online players will only be able to get the Vintage Masters set through the end of Release Events on July 2. Luckily, this is not the case. After the downtime on July 2, a selection of Limited Events will continue for a period of time. You'll be able to purchase Vintage Masters boosters until the release of Khans of Tarkir." Most people assumed this meant that the format would continue to be supported (as packs without events tend to be worth very little). There were even ORCs (customer service reps, basically) telling people that the drafts would continue until Khans release.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05192014/vma

I've read through the rest of your posts on Wizards' forums and a few posts I missed below and agree with many of your points. The main point I disagree with is ending drafts in July and my reasoning for that is it has both short-term ramifications (panic spending, hoarding/speculation, devaluation of prizes for constructed Vintage events) and long-term ramifications in harming the growth and interest in the format in the upcoming years. The number one thing that we both agree on, however, is that Wizards needs to get itself together.

[The Atog Lord]

Rain, I actually think that continuing Vintage Masters Drafts longer is a good thing overall. My problem is that, once they said they were going to stop them, they should have done what they said. The prior text seems to suggest they would have continued them, but the announcement two days ago was very explicit about stopping them. If people didn't have such an investment in the game, then this whole thing could be laughed off as incompetence. But people really do have money tied up in this game, and that makes their inability to follow what they've said a very serious problem. I hope that Wizards will take the steps necessary to see that this problem will, not happen again.

[rickster]

When are we going to get them to increase the prize support for going 3-1 in a vintage/legacy DE? It's 2 VMA boosters (14 tickets MSRP), where as standard/modern/block get 6 THS boosters (~24 tickets MSRP). The prize support for this format is a joke considering how expensive it is versus other formats.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

When are we going to get them to increase the prize support for going 3-1 in a vintage/legacy DE? It's 2 VMA boosters (14 tickets MSRP), where as standard/modern/block get 6 THS boosters (~24 tickets MSRP). The prize support for this format is a joke considering how expensive it is versus other formats.

More like 17-18 but yea its still more

[rickster]

When are we going to get them to increase the prize support for going 3-1 in a vintage/legacy DE? It's 2 VMA boosters (14 tickets MSRP), where as standard/modern/block get 6 THS boosters (~24 tickets MSRP). The prize support for this format is a joke considering how expensive it is versus other formats.

More like 17-18 but yea its still more

WotC doesn't use 2nd market value for their prizes. They value boosters at what they sell for in the store.

So even 4-0 for vintage/legacy is (42 tix 6*7) and 4-0 for the other events is (44 tix 11*4).

It's pretty ridiculous.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Agreed. Just saying.

[policehq]

Oh my gosh can we please not have nagging paper Vintage owners ruin this for everyone else? Up next: "WotC doesn't care about Vintage." Wonder why? Throw them a bone, they bite your hand.

Rich Shay, thanks for what you've done on this site, but please cash out of MTGO and quit writing books about how bad it is and how unjustly you've been treated.

[desolutionist]

So because of the announcement, I rushed out and bought power 9. (Lotus for $200) Now they revoked what they said they were going to do and Lotus dropped $40.  SO my question now is, will power prices eventually creep up?

[Zherbus]

Yes. After this goes off print it'll get ridiculous over time.

[Coopes]

I've been impressed at how many players Vintage online has brought out as well. Lots of players are invested in power now, and as soon as VMA dips out of q's I would imagine we'll see them rise over time. There's also a lot of speculators who will most likely buy in again once we get closer to that point.

[KrauserKrauser]

I'm drafting VMA as much as I can while the queues are still open.  Planning on a drafting marathon next week.

Power, duals, forces, legacy and vintage staples will likely double from here in 6-12 months time.