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Author Topic: Night's Whisper Control Slaver  (Read 28261 times)
kalisia
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« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2014, 05:14:30 pm »

I do not play ancestral recall because it is restricted, i play it because it is a powerful card. I do not opt to play gifts over jace merely because gifts sits on a list of cards, i choose the one i deem most useful in actual games.

I am like you : I do not play Ancestral Recall because it is restricted, i play it because it is a powerful card ! But now, in the same way : why Ancestral Recall is restricted ? Because it's powerful !!! If we want to be as accurate as possible, the sentence should be "Because the card is TOO powerful if played in x4 in a deck!".
Don't try to separate the two ideas : the two things ARE linked. Players want to play the best cards, AND the more powerful cards (too powerful if playable in x4) are restricted. Where would be an interest in restricting a card that is not doing a distortion of the format ?


No, it is not played much because people prefer other cards. Simply put: They evaluated that other cards would help them win more than gifts would. Take a look at LSV's deck in the Vintage Super League, or rich shays....are you trying to tell me that these players opted not to play gifts because they are not good enough to properly play it? Keeping in mind that LSV has experience with gifts in vintage.
The card is not played much because players find that other cards help them more.
I am not saying that a card is bad just because it isn't played, but you seem to ignore the fact that people play whatever cards they choose for the purpose of winning the game. If a card is not played much, this means that players find that other cards helps them more.

I said that many players don't play Gifts Ungiven because the card is difficult to play, and I'm sure I'm right.
But you want to let me say that this is an exclusive reason ! I never said that !
Many very good players don't play the card, basically because they play decks where the card is not strong.
Gifts Ungiven is a special card, it doesn't fit in every deck. I even would say that the card needs a deck specially builded around it.



TL:DR
Being on the restricted list is not an argument for inclusion of a card. Neither does it mean that it is automatically stronger than an unrestricted card.
People choose the cards they do specifically to win games, so if they choose to play something other than gifts it is because they evaluated that the card would be better for them.

Gifts is not the "I win" card in all situations, it requires a game state where it can just win, and it is generally less useful than other cards when it does not just win.
This is a very poor argument.
I can absolutely say that for EVERY card in Magic. I can say for example that Yawgmoth's Will is not a "I win" card in all situations (for example with an opponent's Tormod's Crypt on the board). Will you say that the card is not a "I win" card ?


Claiming that people are just not good enough to play gifts is a poor argument considering that really good players choose not to play the card.
But this is a part of the truth.
Another part is that many players loved play Gifts Ungiven x4, because it was exciting to win with a so broken tutoring engine! But the same players have the slackness to try to build something interesting with only one copy of the card in the deck. It's so easy to put 4 Jaces in a deck to obtain something strong. It's 10 times less interesting, but it's strong as well. 4 Gifts >>> 4 Jace, but 1 Gifts <<< 4 Jace : this is the reason why players choose Jace.

And you will ask me : so why people don't play Jaces AND Gifts ?
Answer : because it's not the same deckbuilding approach and the two cards don't work very well together, so where would be the interest of playing both ? One is trying to make a lot of CA and gives board management, where the other is trying to open a time window in ordre to win in one shot.




« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 05:17:28 pm by kalisia » Logged
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« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2014, 05:38:03 pm »

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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2014, 12:49:38 pm »

Why should I be the person who doesn't understand the other ?
I could say the same thing about you.

You have your point of view, I have my point of vue. These are different and this is not dramatic Wink


The only thing I wanted to point (in favor of Gifts Ungiven), it is this:
Quote
In a situation where you have to remove something out of the board in order to win, you will have to do the same with Fact or Fiction or Jace. The difference is that even if you remove the problem , fact or jace will not automaticaly give you the win, where Gifts Ungiven will win the game.

I think it is easy to understand.
After that, when and why some players prefer play other cards than this one is another question...But the fact is that this card can win games with an incredible efficiency.
In control slaver, which plays Welder, it seems a real mistake to not play a game winner like Gifts. My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 01:04:09 pm by kalisia » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2014, 01:16:30 pm »

kalisia, yes, Gifts Ungiven can win games with the right setup. So does Hidetsugu's Second Rite. These cards aren't as different as you might think. They are both four mana spells that win the game under fairly narrow circumstances. They are both cards that I don't ever want to cast in my first turn using a land and a Black Lotus. And while they're both game-winning with the right set up, they're also both actively bad under less favorable circumstances -- such as the opponent having Leyline of the Void or being at 9 life.
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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2014, 01:41:15 pm »

I noticed that in some versions of this build there have been up to four dacks used plus thirst for knowledge. I was just wondering if either Anger or Wonder has ever been considered? Giving your welders or tinker bots flying and or haste seems like not a bad thing. Maybe worth testing anyways as it only takes one (if you just want Anger for example) or two slots.
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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2014, 02:50:41 pm »

kalisia, yes, Gifts Ungiven can win games with the right setup. So does Hidetsugu's Second Rite. These cards aren't as different as you might think. They are both four mana spells that win the game under fairly narrow circumstances. They are both cards that I don't ever want to cast in my first turn using a land and a Black Lotus. And while they're both game-winning with the right set up, they're also both actively bad under less favorable circumstances -- such as the opponent having Leyline of the Void or being at 9 life.

Comparing Gifts Ungiven to Hidetsugu's Second Rite is a joke Smile !

And casting Gifts Ungiven in a first turn using a Black Lotus is not a bad play.
If you make a pile with cards like Ancestral Recall, Gush, FoW, Dark Confidant, Time Walk or Brainstorm, you are very fine.
In this case, you will not seek the turn 2 kill, but you will shape a good hand.
This is the power of Gifts, you can set a killing pile, or you can basically make CA and QA at the same time. It depends on the situation.

I find that the examples against Gifts mentioning graveyard hate cards are bad. Why ? Because the same example can be used to criticize Yawgmoth's Will. Try to win with Yawgmoth's Will when there is Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt... And nobody uses the argument to say that Yawgmoth's Will is a "favorable circumstances" winner. People say it is a winner. Every card in MtG can be stopped by another one. This is not a criteria that defines the power of a card.
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« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2014, 04:49:42 pm »

Gotta go with Kalisia here.

A turn 1 Jace may seem better than turn 1 Gifts because over the next X turns, Jace accumulates advantage....but he's not really better in that one moment unless your opponent turn 1nd into tinker/BSC.  Turn 1 FoF is certainly no better than turn 1 Gifts, and often much worse. 

I hate when people say "but X isn't good on turn 1/point Y in the game".  Yawg Will is a great example....sucks on turn 1 99% of the time and is nerfed by everything that hits Gifts (and Gifts STILL puts 2 in your hand), but nobody dogs on YW as a bad card. 

Also correct that Jace/Gifts don't always work in the same deck.  They often aim at different strategies...total control through CA or assembling a combo, respectively. 

I do disagree about the "less played because people can't play it right" argument though.  It may be hard to make a killing pile given a set of circumstances, but how hard is it really to pick 4 good spells and let your opponent give you 2 awesome weapons for 4 mana?  It really is a 3U, instant, double DT.  That's broken.  FAR more broken than FoF, and at least as broken as Jace.  Different goals/different design accounts for the variance in use, not the difficulty of play.  I'm sure I can't optimally play Ancestral Recall all the time (when to hold, cast, tutor for, etc.) but every time it resolves, my odds of winning increase a lot.  Not being able to maximize something's use doesn't make that a reason not to pay it....there has to be other reasons (like the one I just stated).

But bottom line, Gifts is a freakin' bomb - and in a welder deck, it probably should find its way into 60+15.
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« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2014, 05:45:45 pm »

Gotta go with The Atog Lord here.

The argument (as I understand it because it's been all over) is not that Gifts Ungiven is a bad card, just that it is sub-optimal in Rich's deck.

And casting Gifts Ungiven in a first turn using a Black Lotus is not a bad play.
If you make a pile with cards like Ancestral Recall, Gush, FoW, Dark Confidant, Time Walk or Brainstorm, you are very fine.
In this case, you will not seek the turn 2 kill, but you will shape a good hand.
This is the power of Gifts, you can set a killing pile, or you can basically make CA and QA at the same time. It depends on the situation.

Against graveyard hate such as a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, you are losing the opportunity cost of drawing/tutoring for Ancestral Recall or Time Walk later in the game as your opponent will exile them (might matter, might not). And decks like BUG Fish have cut Yawgmoth's Will because the deck does not benefit that much from the inclusion and the card does not have synergy with the rest of the deck (role > brokenness). The examples with Gifts and graveyard hate are not to show that a card is universally good or bad, but that cards must be viewed in the context of both the deck in which they are played and the metagame at large.
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« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2014, 12:29:35 am »

I think the key point is that by restricting some cards they become significantly worse. Ancestral recall does not become particularly worse when restricted; you still play it because it draws 3 cards for U at instant speed. I played meandeck gifts back in the day and it was awesome, but the machinery does not work with just one gifts and several other cards restricted. As an extreme example, flash is on the restricted list because it is too powerful as a 4x build around card. Gifts is not too different from why we don't see flash as a one of, it is significantly worse without a supporting cast.
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« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2014, 02:10:00 am »

So gifts is bad as a singleton in this deck for some and for others it is not. awesome. Anyone thought of testing wonder or anger with the slaver lists running four dacks?
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« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2014, 04:34:13 am »

So gifts is bad as a singleton in this deck for some and for others it is not. awesome. Anyone thought of testing wonder or anger with the slaver lists running four dacks?

I remember Wonder was played in decks like Madness.
It is an interesting idea but does Slaver need flying creatures in order to win ?
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« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2014, 12:39:53 pm »

I think there are two reasons to play battlesphere: it at least generates tokens if it gets taken care of, and the other reason is that it has pseudoevasion, so Wonder doesn't do a whole lot. I think Anger is way too narrow since this isn't a "goblin welder deck" like the old control slaver lists. If I wanted to test out Anger I feel like I'd play Blightsteel, but that's a nombo with welder.
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« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2014, 01:13:01 pm »

The french player who finished 3rd of Bazaar of Moxen with a madness deck is an expert of Control Slaver, and he immediatly played Triskelavus when the card had been printed.
With some Welders, the card was extremely good against a lot of match-ups.
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« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2014, 02:06:29 pm »

I have a couple of quick thoughts about this deck:

1) Does anyone else cut Mindslaver right now? I have trouble getting it to pop as often as I want. My list has two dack, two welder, and thirst.

2) Does anyone like triskelion/triskelavus?
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« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2014, 08:19:48 pm »

Yeah I've cut Mindslaver. I REALLY wanted to make it work but it's simply not efficient, and the few activations I've had with it have yielded very little benefit. May be just me. Anyway I decided to try Memory Jar in its place, which has been way more valuable. If my opponent plays an early cage, I can still Tinker for Jar and don't have to worry about activation costs. I'm sure this has already been tested extensively, probably years ago, but hasn't been mentioned here because of the title of the thread.

As for the bickering over Gifts, I appreciate the different view points, though I'm not sure if much was accomplished by arguing back and forth. Some folks have different opinions (and different experiences) and that's okay.
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« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2014, 12:45:18 am »

I've liked Sphinx of the Steel Wind in testing. Like many, I've been looking for ways to deal with the newly treasure-cruising delver decks. Though it's sometimes hard to get a welder online in this matchup, Sphinx has been a horse for me over a small sample thus far. It gets around Dack and Ancient Grudge; its enemies are Steel Sabotage, Hurkyl's, Jace, and Ice. I was occasionally able to hard cast it, even when my deck's only white sources were pearl and lotus. What do you think of this?
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« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2014, 03:11:12 am »

I've liked Sphinx of the Steel Wind in testing. Like many, I've been looking for ways to deal with the newly treasure-cruising delver decks. Though it's sometimes hard to get a welder online in this matchup, Sphinx has been a horse for me over a small sample thus far. It gets around Dack and Ancient Grudge; its enemies are Steel Sabotage, Hurkyl's, Jace, and Ice. I was occasionally able to hard cast it, even when my deck's only white sources were pearl and lotus. What do you think of this?

Brian Kelly (brianpk80) plays Sphinx because of Delver and Dack. It's so good against them. Granted he doesn't play this deck, he plays a "Brian Kelly" deck. Sphinx is a beast that "gains new abilities every time you play it" in the words of Rob Edwards. I agree with Sphinx in this deck
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« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2015, 09:57:19 am »

After reading this thread, and a little experience playing with Goblin Welder and Mindslaver in the past, I decided that I really wanted to try this deck.

This thread informed my card choices quite a bit, although I did deviate somewhat from what other people have played. I have only played a few matches with the list as it is now, but I've won all of them. I feel like the deck is at least headed in the right direction.

Here's my pile:

1 Library of Alexandria
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Night's Whisper
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Dack Fayden
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Mana Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mana Crypt
2 Goblin Welder
1 Time Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Island
2 Baleful Strix
1 Strip Mine

3 Ingot Chewer
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Massacre
1 Mountain
2 Pyroblast
1 Slaughter Games

I can't wait to read the comments. I'm sure there's at least one card to raise some eyebrows.
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« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2015, 10:28:44 am »

After reading this thread, and a little experience playing with Goblin Welder and Mindslaver in the past, I decided that I really wanted to try this deck.

This thread informed my card choices quite a bit, although I did deviate somewhat from what other people have played. I have only played a few matches with the list as it is now, but I've won all of them. I feel like the deck is at least headed in the right direction.

Here's my pile:

1 Library of Alexandria
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Night's Whisper
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Dack Fayden
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Mana Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mana Crypt
2 Goblin Welder
1 Time Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Island
2 Baleful Strix
1 Strip Mine

3 Ingot Chewer
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Massacre
1 Mountain
2 Pyroblast
1 Slaughter Games

I can't wait to read the comments. I'm sure there's at least one card to raise some eyebrows.

I feel that Dig is now a card, Night's Whisper isn't needed.
I love the Slaughter Games in the board nice Tech!
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« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2015, 11:36:53 am »

I could be wrong, but without extra fetch lands and cantrips , delve draw spells seem much harder to cast.
Night's whisper has been really good, the only thing that I don't like about it is that it isn't blue. The blue card count in the deck is a bit lower than I am used to. I have been unable to Fow at times due to this.

I wondered if thoughtcast would work, but I figured that if it would actually work than someone better than I would have done it already.
 
I'd like to mention that I finally got to use a mindslaver today. Killed a guy with his own grislebrand.
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« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2015, 12:14:38 pm »

I could be wrong, but without extra fetch lands and cantrips , delve draw spells seem much harder to cast.
Night's whisper has been really good, the only thing that I don't like about it is that it isn't blue. The blue card count in the deck is a bit lower than I am used to. I have been unable to Fow at times due to this.

I wondered if thoughtcast would work, but I figured that if it would actually work than someone better than I would have done it already.
 
I'd like to mention that I finally got to use a mindslaver today. Killed a guy with his own grislebrand.

I would rather see Thoughtcast than Whisper.

Slaver is an awesome card.
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« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2015, 03:15:55 pm »

In theory Thoughtcast would be better, but I am yet to figure out how to utilize it well without using Artifact lands. If you can get around that little speed bump, it's worth trying. If not, artifact lands really weaken your manabase.
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« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2015, 04:33:55 pm »

In theory Thoughtcast would be better, but I am yet to figure out how to utilize it well without using Artifact lands. If you can get around that little speed bump, it's worth trying. If not, artifact lands really weaken your manabase.

Maybe they'll unrestrict Thirst for Knowledge soon...

I don't know though. Is this type of deck the reason Thirst was restricted in the first place? I didn't play Magic at all for a number of years, and I missed a lot. Vintage was type one when I quit the first time/  Very Happy
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« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2015, 06:39:59 am »

Thirst became problematic in Tezz decks later I think. In Slaver it was perfectly reasonable.

I think the problem with this deck currently is that it's between two stools - as you're probably noticing from your desire to go down a Thoughtcast route. If you want to a play a comboey artifact deck, then something like Steel City Vault is more explosive. And if you want to play a control-combo deck with Key/Vault finish, then something like the Grixis Thieves build seems to achieve that better, too. As awesome as Mindslaver is, it just seems like quite a lot of unnecessary faff to set up - when Dack + Thief is great by itself. And Vault/Key or Tinker-Blightsteel ends the game more efficiently.

I like the inclusion of Gifts though - and perhaps some kind of Welder-oriented Gifts deck might be possible - though I imagine it would need Thirst as a 4-of to help you get there...

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« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2015, 09:13:04 am »

Thirst became problematic in Tezz decks later I think. In Slaver it was perfectly reasonable.

I think the problem with this deck currently is that it's between two stools - as you're probably noticing from your desire to go down a Thoughtcast route. If you want to a play a comboey artifact deck, then something like Steel City Vault is more explosive. And if you want to play a control-combo deck with Key/Vault finish, then something like the Grixis Thieves build seems to achieve that better, too. As awesome as Mindslaver is, it just seems like quite a lot of unnecessary faff to set up - when Dack + Thief is great by itself. And Vault/Key or Tinker-Blightsteel ends the game more efficiently.

I like the inclusion of Gifts though - and perhaps some kind of Welder-oriented Gifts deck might be possible - though I imagine it would need Thirst as a 4-of to help you get there...



I'm working on a SCV list as well. I just don't want to sell off any cards to finish it yet. Mox opals aren't that cheap still.
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« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2015, 10:01:16 am »

I agree this archetype needs another look.  I think nights whisper is strong now.  Dack is strong. (maybe The Best?)  Should be possible to build a competitive deck based on that core.
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« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2015, 02:10:45 pm »

I agree this archetype needs another look.  I think nights whisper is strong now.  Dack is strong. (maybe The Best?)  Should be possible to build a competitive deck based on that core.

I've been doing well with the deck, but I've only played tournament practice matches on MTGO. Sometimes, I recognize some of the names I face from Daily Events, but I haven't run into any while playing this NWCS deck. Still, initial testing suggests that the deck is capable of some strong plays for sure. It might take a while before I'm comfortable enough with my build and my skill with the deck to take it into a tournament.

The sideboard I have has been pretty good. I haven't used the slaughter games yet, but the idea is that some harder matches like Oath get easier if you can exile all of their Oath targets.

This morning, I tried running one Daretti, Scrap Savant to see how it would go. I got the idea from this deck: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15488&iddeck=115165

I only had time for one match before work, but the Daretti won me the game. I had cast a Time Vault one turn to complete the combo, and it had been countered. Later, I topdecked the Daretti and brought the Time Vault back immediately. I obviously need to test a lot more to see if a four mana planeswalker is worth using, but I think it has some potential.
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mmcgeach
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« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2015, 02:15:59 pm »

I tried this ...

2 goblin welder
3 notion thief
2 snapcaster
1 sphinx of the steel wind
      
4 nights whisper   
3 dack fayden   
2 gifts ungiven   
1 ancestral recall   
1 time walk   
1 treasure cruise   
1 tinker   
1 demonic tutor   
1 yawgmoth's will      
1 timetwister
1 memory jar   
1 time vault   
1 voltaic key
1 vampiric tutor   
1 sensei's divining top   
      
4 force of will
2 misdirection
2 flusterstorm

2 cavern of souls   
1 tolarian academy   
3 underground sea
2 volcanic island   
1 island   
4 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta   
      
5 moxes   
1 sol ring   
1 mana crypt   
1 black lotus   
1 lotus petal   


Idea is to leverage Dack Fayden.  He's the Best Card in the Format.  Snaps and Welders and Notion Thief have the best interactions with dack.  Also Gifts is strong with welders and snaps.  Its essentially a combo deck, trying to assemble vault-key or thief-timetwister or thief-dack or jar-welder.  All of these are pretty strong.  And they all have synergy with each other.  The deck is also pretty fast, so you can race uninteractive creature strategies, frequently.

So far its pretty fun, but I think there's room for improvement.  Not sure if 2 caverns are necessary (maybe drop 1 for another fetch) and the petal might be better as some other mana source (mana vault or volc #3 or fetch #7).  Also would be nice to fit in another win-con, something like a Jace.
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portland
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« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2015, 02:36:08 pm »

Anyone given strategic planning a run?
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Lucky beats good.
andvari
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« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2015, 08:03:27 am »

Hi guys Smile

So, i'm thinking in starting playing vintage (there will be a 10-proxy tournament here in my city) and i love this stile of decks.
I'm testing a list VERY similar to the one Islandswamp posted, but now that Thirst for Knowledge got unrestricted i'm thinking of removing the Night's Whispers and adding Thirsts.
What do you guys think?
And what would you guys consider a good sideboard for a field with a lot of URx Delver, Shops, some creature decks like 4c Humans and Bug Fish and without any dredge and storm?

My sideboard for now is this, but i'm not so sure about it:
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain
1 Slaughter Games
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