Quickest Beatdown in Vintage

[MTGFan]

Landstill isn't close to crippled. You've clearly never played against it if you think that eating the Jace's will win you that match up.

Well, they have to win with Factories and/or Lightning Bolts while facing down a fast clock generated by a deck that plays 4 Wastelands, 1 Strip Mine, and quite a few Hexproof Creatures. It's possible, but it's not a favorable position for the Landstill deck at all.

I've played the matchup many times, and I've also played UR Landstill heavily myself and understand its weaknesses and strengths intimately.

[hashswag]

I've actually played against Landstill a lot with Goblins, and played against Goblins a couple of times as a Landstill player and Landstill was always one of the easiest matchups for me. Earwig isn't even needed, really.

It's not crippling in the sense that it has no wincons left (factories + random snapcasters/other dudes are enough), but it massively slows down their draw engine. Without Jaces, they have Standstill (which is almost useless against Goblins, since Caverns + the sheer number of dudes means they can almost never play it) and brain/acall (which only go so far when you need to be drawing a lot of removal/counters to stay alive). At that point the game is over, because the Goblins player can just spam dudes and attack.

Even if the Landstill player gets Crucible + Factory online to block repeatedly and/or strategically double block/pump, the Goblins player still has Wastes, Incinerators, Tinkerers/Welders and Bolts for combat tricks, as well as bombs like Krenko to flood the board with.

[MTGFan]

The Rogues deck is entirely different from the Goblins deck. Playing with permission gives you an edge over decks that Goblins would ordinarly fold to. Additionally, playing with 7+ hexproof dudes (and many dudes that are either flying or unblockable) means that Landstill often MUST get Engineered Explosives or it will be unable to deal with the beatdown. And the Caverns and Hexproof will render alot of cards dead in the Landstill player's hand (Fire//Ice, Bolts, Mana Drain, Force, Spell Pierce etc).

[Samoht]

Because the Landstill deck would never Waste/Strip the Caverns, play Mindbreak Trap, or have removal to answer the threats that the goblin decks employ. Jace is one of the actual worst cards in the match up. I board it out, it's that bad. You're either playing the deck incorrectly or built improperly if you can't leverage your cards against Goblins. It's by no means a bye, but my point is Jace has almost no impact on the match either way.

[portland]

Landstill isn't close to crippled. You've clearly never played against it if you think that eating the Jace's will win you that match up.

Crucible is a kicking and is a better target to cap.

[Samoht]

Landstill isn't close to crippled. You've clearly never played against it if you think that eating the Jace's will win you that match up.

Crucible is a kicking and is a better target to cap.

QFT. Definitely significantly more impactful than Jace in the MU.

[zeus-online]

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[mmcgeach]

I think you really want dredge.  You can win turn 2 with the dread return version, or turn 3 without casting a single spell not named "cabal therapy."  I mean, dude, if you want to not cast spells, dredge is for you.

[msg67183]

You could use instigater and chrome mox to speed it up? I think that goblins is your best bet. Elves requires you to cast spells and merfolk is too slow. Zoo variants have too varied types and infect/affinity uses non creature spells

Elves does not "require" spells to be cast. The only "spells" in my list are Green Sun's Zenith and Skullclamp. Sure they really help out but aren't required since I have a backup draw engine in the form of 4 Visionary plus 4 Wirewood Symbiote. The deck wins turn 3 fairly consistently, and I would consider it the best creature deck, as it trashes other creature decks with ease.

Really? Maybe i am thinking of the wrong versions of elves. When i think elves i think:
Skullclamp, glimpse of nature and maybe even earthcraft.
Related question: Can you turn 3 with elves, without casting spells...and how difficult is it?

It is definitely possible. It would require your combo creatures (Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel and Elvish Visionary with Wirewood Symbiote) along with either Priest of Titania or Gaea's Cradle to hardcast Craterhoof Behemoth.
I play Wirewood Hivemaster, making Skullclamp, Gaea's Cradle and Craterhoof Behemoth amazing.

I don't play Glimpse of Nature because; it requires a very mana intensive, multiple creature heavy hand and it can just fizzle. Whereas Skullclamp l, especially with Hivemaster, gives an insane amount of Card Advantage that I don't even miss Glimpse of Nature. The CA can also be incrememntal
which is a huge boon.

Green Sun's Zenith is pretty insane. Either it gets me an answer (Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Reclamation Sage, or Gaea's Herald), any combo piece I may need (be it the mana engine of Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel, CA engine of Visionary and Symbiote, or soft lock win against Shops in Reclamation Sage and Symbiote), or just the win (Ezuri or Craterhoof). I've considered Natural Order, I'm just iffy about having to sacrifice a dude to do what Green Sun's Zenith does, and mana usually isn't a problem in my list.

I hope this answers your questions, if you have any more don't hesitate to ask. 

[zeus-online]

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[MTGFan]

You could use instigater and chrome mox to speed it up? I think that goblins is your best bet. Elves requires you to cast spells and merfolk is too slow. Zoo variants have too varied types and infect/affinity uses non creature spells

Elves does not "require" spells to be cast. The only "spells" in my list are Green Sun's Zenith and Skullclamp. Sure they really help out but aren't required since I have a backup draw engine in the form of 4 Visionary plus 4 Wirewood Symbiote. The deck wins turn 3 fairly consistently, and I would consider it the best creature deck, as it trashes other creature decks with ease.

Really? Maybe i am thinking of the wrong versions of elves. When i think elves i think:
Skullclamp, glimpse of nature and maybe even earthcraft.
Related question: Can you turn 3 with elves, without casting spells...and how difficult is it?

It is definitely possible. It would require your combo creatures (Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel and Elvish Visionary with Wirewood Symbiote) along with either Priest of Titania or Gaea's Cradle to hardcast Craterhoof Behemoth.
I play Wirewood Hivemaster, making Skullclamp, Gaea's Cradle and Craterhoof Behemoth amazing.

I don't play Glimpse of Nature because; it requires a very mana intensive, multiple creature heavy hand and it can just fizzle. Whereas Skullclamp l, especially with Hivemaster, gives an insane amount of Card Advantage that I don't even miss Glimpse of Nature. The CA can also be incrememntal
which is a huge boon.

Green Sun's Zenith is pretty insane. Either it gets me an answer (Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Reclamation Sage, or Gaea's Herald), any combo piece I may need (be it the mana engine of Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel, CA engine of Visionary and Symbiote, or soft lock win against Shops in Reclamation Sage and Symbiote), or just the win (Ezuri or Craterhoof). I've considered Natural Order, I'm just iffy about having to sacrifice a dude to do what Green Sun's Zenith does, and mana usually isn't a problem in my list.

I hope this answers your questions, if you have any more don't hesitate to ask.  

Is skullclamp the only difference (Baring Mox emerald and black lotus) between legacy elves and vintage elves?
Legacy elves does not seem very powerful tbh.

Elves are actually very powerful in Legacy due to their ability to win via combo and via traditional "beatdown". It's a combo deck whose combo pieces turn sideways to deal damage.

I think what the OP is looking for is a way to kill via damage without being vulnerable at a certain choke-point. That is the fundamental weakness of fast combo decks: being susceptible to a single strike that dismantles the confluence of events required to develop the kill. For example, I can cast a Chalice of the Void @ 1 vs. Storm combo and pierce their entire strategy. I can cast a Rest in Peace against Dredge and nullify their strategy. I can cast a Grafdigger's Cage against Oath and prevent them from making use of their combo centerpiece.

The advantage of playing "aggro" is simply to distribute the kill into independent components; to decentralize. Doing so makes you more resilient and less susceptible to a targeted piece of hate. Otherwise there would be no reason to play "aggro" at all - combo would be superior in every respect.  The only "hate" for aggro is spot removal and sweepers, but neither definitively stops the aggro player like a targeted piece of hate would stop the combo player.

Elves is actually a remarkable deck in that it can play both roles effectively. The individual elves all attack so a decentralized kill is possible; against an opponent unprepared to deal with a chain of spells, the combo kill turns these pieces into a single one-shot assault.

[zeus-online]

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[Zeksagmak]

4. MUD by Steve Rubin (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14284&iddeck=105318): Take out the 1 Steel Hellkite and 2 Phyrexian Metamorphs. They have to win with Lodestones and Revokers. They can do it, but their threats are outnumbered by the Rogue deck's threats and Lodestones don't matchup well to guys like TNN and Earwig.

5. MUD by Shawn Griffiths (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14284&iddeck=105319): Take out 1 Darksteel Juggernaut and 2 Metamorphs. Same general tactics apply as to the deck above.
7. Control Slaver by Brian Koval (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14284&iddeck=105321): Again, a ridiculously easy deck to beat with a single Earwig Squad Prowling - take out their lone Tinker target (Battlesphere), take out their lone Mindslaver, and take out their lone Jace and they have nearly nothing.

Of that entire Top 8, I can see only three decks that are not completely crippled by a single Earwig squad (the 2 MUDs and the Merfolk). And even against those three decks, just stripping them of their biggest future threats (bombs that they can play later like Steel Hellkite and TNN respectively) and dropping a 5/3 or 6/4 (with lord pump) body is a big play.

I think you're vastly discounting MUD here.  Sphere's still add to the Prowl cost of Earwig so you'd have to get in a swing and 4+ mana for prowled earwig pretty fast.  Tangle Wire and Smokestack can still ruin your day even if you Earwig the cards you mentioned.  They can just eat your board and beat you down with a revoker or factory.  You also ignore the cases where they might have the card in hand already.  In the case of Wurmcoil, I don't see you coming back from a lone Wurmcoil/Hellkite. 

Regarding Landstill, with a beatdown deck, I'm way more afraid of their Crucible/Factories than I am of Jace especially if I've got caverns.

[msg67183]

Elves are actually very powerful in Legacy due to their ability to win via combo and via traditional "beatdown". It's a combo deck whose combo pieces turn sideways to deal damage.

Not my experience, but maybe they are just bad against miracle control which is what i play when i play legacy.

That's because the Legacy version doesnt usually run Caverns and I have no experience with Legacy but doesn't Miracles play Counterbalance? Seems just as bad as Chalice of the Void in Vintage. Cavern and Gaea's Herald help that out a lot.

[zeus-online]

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[desolutionist]

I think what the OP is looking for is a way to kill via damage without being vulnerable at a certain choke-point. That is the fundamental weakness of fast combo decks: being susceptible to a single strike that dismantles the confluence of events required to develop the kill. For example, I can cast a Chalice of the Void @ 1 vs. Storm combo and pierce their entire strategy. I can cast a Rest in Peace against Dredge and nullify their strategy. I can cast a Grafdigger's Cage against Oath and prevent them from making use of their combo centerpiece.

The advantage of playing "aggro" is simply to distribute the kill into independent components; to decentralize. Doing so makes you more resilient and less susceptible to a targeted piece of hate. Otherwise there would be no reason to play "aggro" at all - combo would be superior in every respect.  The only "hate" for aggro is spot removal and sweepers, but neither definitively stops the aggro player like a targeted piece of hate would stop the combo player.

Elves is actually a remarkable deck in that it can play both roles effectively. The individual elves all attack so a decentralized kill is possible; against an opponent unprepared to deal with a chain of spells, the combo kill turns these pieces into a single one-shot assault.

Nice post!  That's actually exactly what I'm talking about.  I'll have to give Elves a fair shot.  

Also, while on the topic of Earwig Squad, another card that does a lot of work for a straight forward aggro deck is Grafdiggers Cage.  By bringing in 4 of these against something like NWCS, you're eliminating all the wins that are faster than yours.  I've found Chalice@0 on the play and post-board Grafdigger's Cage to be very effective at dealing with aggro's biggest weakness (Getting blown out).  I believe having Cage and Chalice in the 75 makes it so your creatures don't have to have the "hate" attributes shared by cards like Thalia and Aegis.

[msg67183]

I think what the OP is looking for is a way to kill via damage without being vulnerable at a certain choke-point. That is the fundamental weakness of fast combo decks: being susceptible to a single strike that dismantles the confluence of events required to develop the kill. For example, I can cast a Chalice of the Void @ 1 vs. Storm combo and pierce their entire strategy. I can cast a Rest in Peace against Dredge and nullify their strategy. I can cast a Grafdigger's Cage against Oath and prevent them from making use of their combo centerpiece.

The advantage of playing "aggro" is simply to distribute the kill into independent components; to decentralize. Doing so makes you more resilient and less susceptible to a targeted piece of hate. Otherwise there would be no reason to play "aggro" at all - combo would be superior in every respect.  The only "hate" for aggro is spot removal and sweepers, but neither definitively stops the aggro player like a targeted piece of hate would stop the combo player.

Elves is actually a remarkable deck in that it can play both roles effectively. The individual elves all attack so a decentralized kill is possible; against an opponent unprepared to deal with a chain of spells, the combo kill turns these pieces into a single one-shot assault.

Nice post!  That's actually exactly what I'm talking about.  I'll have to give Elves a fair shot.  

Also, while on the topic of Earwig Squad, another card that does a lot of work for a straight forward aggro deck is Grafdiggers Cage.  By bringing in 4 of these against something like NWCS, you're eliminating all the wins that are faster than yours.  I've found Chalice@0 on the play and post-board Grafdigger's Cage to be very effective at dealing with aggro's biggest weakness (Getting blown out).  I believe having Cage and Chalice in the 75 makes it so your creatures don't have to have the "hate" attributes shared by cards like Thalia and Aegis.

Would you like me to PM you my list?

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think what the OP is looking for is a way to kill via damage without being vulnerable at a certain choke-point. That is the fundamental weakness of fast combo decks: being susceptible to a single strike that dismantles the confluence of events required to develop the kill. For example, I can cast a Chalice of the Void @ 1 vs. Storm combo and pierce their entire strategy.

Right.  'Cause playing a deck with 35-40 1-drops is a great way to avoid that "piercing" CotV?

I can appreciate what desolutionist is trying to do here, and I have some respect for Elves.  But it really is a fool's errand.

Vintage has never had more strongly positioned silver bullets.  Recent printings have dictated that decks like BUG, Merfolk, UW and MUD have become viable (even favored?) metagame bulwarks.  Sure Oath, TVK.dec and storm are viable, but there is a ton of hate and you need to be a pretty slick pilot.

This search for replicating that last strategy with creatures has already been optimized in MUD (w/Greaves) and Delver, both of which can either goldfish or stop their opponent and often both.

Caverns is good, sure.  But it's a fig leaf when faced with spheres and wastelands on top of CotV.

[MaximumCDawg]

I can second this.  Elves is fun and all, but when one of the four mainstays of the metagame is packing a maindeck card that just ends the game on turn 1, and you cannot stop it, it's no fun.  Heck, you can't even hedge against it by putting in Mental Misstep.  

If you want to be a serious Vintage deck, I feel like there are a few things you cannot do:

1. Thou Shalt Not Be Cold To Turn 1 Tinker or Oath.
2. Thou Shalt Not Play Without Answers to Turn 1 Lock Cards from Shops.
3. Thou Shalt Pack Yard Hate.
4. (Optional, since Ritual is so suppressed these days)  Thou Shalt Not Be Cold To Storm Going Off On Turn 2.

Any deck that violates one of these Eternal Commandments just can't seriously compete.

[zeus-online]

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[msg67183]

I can second this.  Elves is fun and all, but when one of the four mainstays of the metagame is packing a maindeck card that just ends the game on turn 1, and you cannot stop it, it's no fun.  Heck, you can't even hedge against it by putting in Mental Misstep.  

If you want to be a serious Vintage deck, I feel like there are a few things you cannot do:

1. Thou Shalt Not Be Cold To Turn 1 Tinker or Oath.
2. Thou Shalt Not Play Without Answers to Turn 1 Lock Cards from Shops.
3. Thou Shalt Pack Yard Hate.
4. (Optional, since Ritual is so suppressed these days)  Thou Shalt Not Be Cold To Storm Going Off On Turn 2.

Any deck that violates one of these Eternal Commandments just can't seriously compete.

I will have you know that I have a fairly high win percentage against Workshops with my Elves deck. What I was mostly afraid of was early BSC, but I've added Deglamer to answer that problem. This deck can race most combo decks and combo decks aren't seeing a ton of play right now anyway.

[MaximumCDawg]

I will have you know that I have a fairly high win percentage against Workshops with my Elves deck. What I was mostly afraid of was early BSC, but I've added Deglamer to answer that problem. This deck can race most combo decks and combo decks aren't seeing a ton of play right now anyway.

I have no idea how you would manage that.  I mean, if they land Chalice at 1 you're dead in the water until you can get to Reclamation Sage or whatever, and any other lock pieces are brutal in a deck where you have to actually resolve permanents to get mana.  Elves only runs like 14 - 16 lands, yeesh.

[zeus-online]

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[msg67183]

I will have you know that I have a fairly high win percentage against Workshops with my Elves deck. What I was mostly afraid of was early BSC, but I've added Deglamer to answer that problem. This deck can race most combo decks and combo decks aren't seeing a ton of play right now anyway.

I have no idea how you would manage that.  I mean, if they land Chalice at 1 you're dead in the water until you can get to Reclamation Sage or whatever, and any other lock pieces are brutal in a deck where you have to actually resolve permanents to get mana.  Elves only runs like 14 - 16 lands, yeesh.

As I've stated I also play Gaea's Herald

[Twiedel]

I'm currently playing Vintage Elves in the Constructed Open Play area of MTGO, and I am quite surprised by the numbers so far. I'm 7-2 overall in matches right now. My setup is a hybrid of Legacy and msg67183's version, I run both Skullclamp and Glimpse in full sets. Things I found playing this:

Workshops is not a terrible matchup at all. You loose against the hands that everyone looses to and when they bank on Chalice you just have Cavern of Souls. Would love to test this more, but it seems to be ok.

Blue control decks are too slow to really compete. If they can't pull off a turn 2 tinker or random Timevault-Key, the usually either die on my turn 3, or they counter everything they can and the rest of my elves just beat them to death.

Oath is just hilarious. It seems they don't even stand a chance without "Mox, Orchard, Oath" that again most decks fold to (since Griselbrand at least). The removal on their Oath is cheap (Grafdigger's Cage) or nearly/actually uncounterable (Gleeful Sabotage, Reclamation Sage with Cavern).

Delver has a chance if they get something like double Delver on turn 2, or they draw 3+ Creature removal AND Delver. Without the Delver himself the deck seems to have no chance against the masses of elves.

Of course, the deck can and will loose to itself because of mulligans, just like TPS or other comboesque decks. Especially my setup of 4 Clamp and 4 Glimpse has quite a few non-creature cards, but on the upside I won two rounds against Stormdecks just because I had the consistent turn 3 kill, which they sometimes lack. If going without all that gas, you can pretty much auto-fold that matchup I think.

All in all, I think Elves is playablae and viable in the current Vintage metagame that we're in. Decks have never been slower I feel, and exploiting that by playing unctounerable creatures that are just more and faster than other creatures seems to be good. Let's be honest, Elves always won the creature mirror ^^

For the Swarm!!

[msg67183]

I'm currently playing Vintage Elves in the Constructed Open Play area of MTGO, and I am quite surprised by the numbers so far. I'm 7-2 overall in matches right now. My setup is a hybrid of Legacy and msg67183's version, I run both Skullclamp and Glimpse in full sets. Things I found playing this:

Workshops is not a terrible matchup at all. You loose against the hands that everyone looses to and when they bank on Chalice you just have Cavern of Souls. Would love to test this more, but it seems to be ok.

Blue control decks are too slow to really compete. If they can't pull off a turn 2 tinker or random Timevault-Key, the usually either die on my turn 3, or they counter everything they can and the rest of my elves just beat them to death.

Oath is just hilarious. It seems they don't even stand a chance without "Mox, Orchard, Oath" that again most decks fold to (since Griselbrand at least). The removal on their Oath is cheap (Grafdigger's Cage) or nearly/actually uncounterable (Gleeful Sabotage, Reclamation Sage with Cavern).

Delver has a chance if they get something like double Delver on turn 2, or they draw 3+ Creature removal AND Delver. Without the Delver himself the deck seems to have no chance against the masses of elves.

Of course, the deck can and will loose to itself because of mulligans, just like TPS or other comboesque decks. Especially my setup of 4 Clamp and 4 Glimpse has quite a few non-creature cards, but on the upside I won two rounds against Stormdecks just because I had the consistent turn 3 kill, which they sometimes lack. If going without all that gas, you can pretty much auto-fold that matchup I think.

All in all, I think Elves is playablae and viable in the current Vintage metagame that we're in. Decks have never been slower I feel, and exploiting that by playing unctounerable creatures that are just more and faster than other creatures seems to be good. Let's be honest, Elves always won the creature mirror ^^

For the Swarm!!

Good Luck with the games, and congrats on the results. People don't believe me when I say Elves can be good. Now at least you understand.

[JACO]

I'm currently playing Vintage Elves in the Constructed Open Play area of MTGO, and I am quite surprised by the numbers so far. I'm 7-2 overall in matches right now. My setup is a hybrid of Legacy and msg67183's version, I run both Skullclamp and Glimpse in full sets. Things I found playing this:

Workshops is not a terrible matchup at all. You loose against the hands that everyone looses to and when they bank on Chalice you just have Cavern of Souls. Would love to test this more, but it seems to be ok.

Blue control decks are too slow to really compete. If they can't pull off a turn 2 tinker or random Timevault-Key, the usually either die on my turn 3, or they counter everything they can and the rest of my elves just beat them to death.

Oath is just hilarious. It seems they don't even stand a chance without "Mox, Orchard, Oath" that again most decks fold to (since Griselbrand at least). The removal on their Oath is cheap (Grafdigger's Cage) or nearly/actually uncounterable (Gleeful Sabotage, Reclamation Sage with Cavern).

Delver has a chance if they get something like double Delver on turn 2, or they draw 3+ Creature removal AND Delver. Without the Delver himself the deck seems to have no chance against the masses of elves.

Of course, the deck can and will loose to itself because of mulligans, just like TPS or other comboesque decks. Especially my setup of 4 Clamp and 4 Glimpse has quite a few non-creature cards, but on the upside I won two rounds against Stormdecks just because I had the consistent turn 3 kill, which they sometimes lack. If going without all that gas, you can pretty much auto-fold that matchup I think.

All in all, I think Elves is playablae and viable in the current Vintage metagame that we're in. Decks have never been slower I feel, and exploiting that by playing unctounerable creatures that are just more and faster than other creatures seems to be good. Let's be honest, Elves always won the creature mirror ^^

For the Swarm!!

Owen Turtenwald and I were working on an Elves list like this a few years ago (w/ 4 Skullclamp and 4 Glimpse), and it was pretty good, but still inconsistent. Maybe that changes with the Cavern of Souls making stuff uncounterable now, but I'm not sure this falls within the realms of what the original poster was looking for (ability to beat the stack, in effect). If beating Misstep weren't an issue I think BUG Infect is probably the fastest aggro deck in Vintage I'd guess, as you're simply racing to 10 (poison), rather than 20 (damage).

[Random Noob]

Critter
4 Hex Parasite
4 Death's Shadow
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant

Bombs
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Ctrl
4 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize
3 Diabolic Edict

Manabase
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
9 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland

SB:
4 Snuff Out
3 Duress
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Yixlid Jailer

This is my old lady. It should still have a quick beatdown with Marit Lage, or Parasiting x=0 into and huge Shadows. Problem is that Decay is a common and strong answer for Shadows, but I guess it is still a quick and budget shapable list.

[policehq]

Do you want quickest beat down, or quickest beat down that utilizes cavern of souls? There were those jund decks around the time of alara block that were ridiculously fast, and zoo with all land types represented in duals and tribal flames + might of alara. Cavern of souls, force of will, aether vial, etc. are all at your disposal in merfolk. That sounds like where you want to be... Though I have been inspired to see your goblins list on mtggoldfish, and my fifty ticket legacy deck has cashed a couple of times. There is definitely something to be said for aggro.

Finally, what about that infect blazing shoal list that took first within the past year in some European tourney?