Vintage Super League

[Smmenen]

I'm going to stream my #VSL match from last night from my POV on http://www.twitch.tv/smmenen in a few minutes. come join the chat!

We can talk anything Vintage.

[Purple Hat]

I thought Martell's commentary this week was excellent.   I disagree with his thoughts about some of the relative strengths of cards and decks in the format, but he does an amazing job of communicating how well he thinks the game.  I hope he stays engaged in the tournament and does more commentary despite his record through the first set.

[evouga]

I thought Martell's commentary this week was excellent.   I disagree with his thoughts about some of the relative strengths of cards and decks in the format, but he does an amazing job of communicating how well he thinks the game.  I hope he stays engaged in the tournament and does more commentary despite his record through the first set.

He immediately spotted the right play for Efro during Game 1. Is there anything Steve could have done if Cursecatcher had been in play (and he had one extra life)? I'd think not, since the only way to dig into the Doomsday pile was with Ponder, which leaves him with only one mana. His Ponder card could be either mana or a cantrip but neither is enough.

[Smmenen]

Game two: Doomsday vs. merfolk.

Menendian Turn 2.
Play sea, crack the fetchland for whatever land you want (Probably for a basic). Cast dark ritual, cast thoughtseize, cast maniac.

I agree with that as I was saying.  I think that would have given me a good shot to win the game.

[tribet]

Steve,

These were 3 beautiful rounds of Doomsday.

I think you read perfectly the meta (the new guys wanting to play plenty of broken combo stuff). As a result you ended up against 2 Merfolks (because some other guys next-levelled everybody else, etc...). I didn't think Merlfok was an awesome matchup for you. It was certainly a tight one but you skillfully managed to squeeze in those tiny windows (reminds me of High Tide decks somehow). Anyways thanks! This was an absolute delight to watch and to see unravel live.

I have no doubt that you'll change deck for next set of rounds. I wouldn't tarnish such an awesome result & demonstration too. Also, these guys will start doing more homework about Vintage (they'll start looking into BUG, MUD variants, Dredge, Standstill, Grixis, Grindy Oath... you know the Vintage defining decks rather than their glass canon pet decks). It's gonna become very very interesting, though I don't expect much innovations.

One question: wouldn't Probe be super awesome in your Doomsday rather than Imp Seal? Probe would fit perfectly in many piles, like a Gush but sweeter when no land nor mana! (not mentioning the invaluable info it gives you, etc...). To me, Probe's best equivalent is Lotus Petal which is a no-brainer in the deck. That's the stuff you want: Mana, Cantrip, "free" spells, value, flexibility & control (via perfect colour or perfect info).

[Smmenen]

I think I have alot of advantages over Merfolk.  Most notably, with 4 life, I can build a Doomsday pile that wins through Null Rod.

I talked about Probe at length in my archived stream from last night. 

[tribet]

I think I have alot of advantages over Merfolk.  Most notably, with 4 life, I can build a Doomsday pile that wins through Null Rod.

At first glance, Merfolks looked like a tight matchup as they jam in: Clock, Counters, Waste & Rod, Dismember... and that's as far my analysis went. But yeah, it's certainly winnable and you did it 4 times here both pre & post board, ending at 1 life in some games or with 0 spare mana in others. As I said it reminds me of the old instant speed Legacy High Tide deck which I was a big fan of too.

I talked about Probe at length in my archived stream from last night.

Could you point me toward the exact link (and rough point in the timelapse bar where you discuss Probe)

[Smmenen]

Game two: Doomsday vs. merfolk.

Menendian Turn 2.
Play sea, crack the fetchland for whatever land you want (Probably for a basic). Cast dark ritual, cast thoughtseize, cast maniac.

I agree with that as I was saying.  I think that would have given me a good shot to win the game.

I'm sorry, i don't recall you saying that in the stream? Could be wrong, i paused the video when you asked the question and posted the answer here before watching the rest.
Anyway, yes i think that would have given you time to win.

I said in the stream that I think the right play was to Ritual into Maniac there.  Implicit is that you also play Thoughtseize, since I did that anyway.

I think I have alot of advantages over Merfolk.  Most notably, with 4 life, I can build a Doomsday pile that wins through Null Rod.

How much mana does that pile require? I assume you still need lotus and ancestral to pull it off.
Either you need steel sabotage/Hurkyl's or it is a fastbond pile. I assume that you require the pile to generate some amount of mana.

no you don't need lotus or ancestral in the pile to pull it off.  All you need is a gush in hand, a tropical island somewhere, and a land drop.

The pile is:

Gush 2
Fastbond
Gush 3
Maniac
blank

Steps
1: play gush 1 (in hand), returning two lands to hand
2: play tropical island
3: play Fastbond
4: play Underground Sea (lose 1 life)
5: play Gush 2 returning two lands
6: replay two lands (lose 2 life)
7: cast maniac
8: cast Gush 3, win the game

If you don't have Tropical Island or have already played a land, you have to pass the turn and make a slightly different pile, but the principle/framework remains the same.  It's 3 life total to execute.  

I think I have alot of advantages over Merfolk.  Most notably, with 4 life, I can build a Doomsday pile that wins through Null Rod.

At first glance, Merfolks looked like a tight matchup as they jam in: Clock, Counters, Waste & Rod, Dismember... and that's as far my analysis went. But yeah, it's certainly winnable and you did it 4 times here both pre & post board, ending at 1 life in some games or with 0 spare mana in others. As I said it reminds me of the old instant speed Legacy High Tide deck which I was a big fan of too.

The point I ended at 1 life is a bit misleading because Doomsday takes half your life.  If you are using all of your resources efficiently, you should almost always win the game with Doomsday at 1-3 life.  In most cases, you take a good chunk of your own life intentionally.  Ending the game at low life is not a good indication of how "close" the game was. 

I talked about Probe at length in my archived stream from last night.

Could you point me toward the exact link (and rough point in the timelapse bar where you discuss Probe)
[/quote]

twitch.tv/smmenen

It was definitely in the first segment I recorded last night.  I don't have time to rewatch it, but that gives you an idea.  I was interacting with folks in the stream who were asking about that, like Rich Shay.

[Smmenen]

How much mana does that pile require? I assume you still need lotus and ancestral to pull it off.
Either you need steel sabotage/Hurkyl's or it is a fastbond pile. I assume that you require the pile to generate some amount of mana.

no you don't need lotus or ancestral in the pile to pull it off.  All you need is a gush in hand, a tropical island somewhere, and a land drop.

The pile is:

Gush 2
Fastbond
Gush 3
Maniac
blank

Steps
1: play gush 1 (in hand), returning two lands to hand
2: play tropical island
3: play Fastbond
4: play Underground Sea (lose 1 life)
5: play Gush 2 returning two lands
6: replay two lands (lose 2 life)
7: cast maniac
8: cast Gush 3, win the game

That is why i included "or it is a fastbond pile".

Now i see why you needed 4 life. I had constructed a similar pile, but figured i would need 5 life since i counted on having already played a land that turn.

I made some noise about this pile in my previous streams, talking about how this was a go-to pile for me.  I think that may have contributed to Eric's decision to pitch cursecatcher, as he was trying to cut me off from that pile.  

In his twitch account, eric defended pitching cursecatcher on several grounds, including cutting me off from winning with Fastbond as well as the fact that the cards he subsequently drew (lord + wasteland) made that decision wrong, rather than being a priori wrong.

I thought Martell's commentary this week was excellent.   I disagree with his thoughts about some of the relative strengths of cards and decks in the format, but he does an amazing job of communicating how well he thinks the game.

I have to say having listened to Tom's commentary on my game, I thought it was comical how often he was wrong, although he often corrected himself or was corrected.  Being wrong doesn't make it 'bad commentary' but I do think it was often misleading.   To take just the most obvious example, he seemed completely sure that I should sb out Flusterstorms despite the fact that Eric was sideboarding in Flusterstorms and Dismembers :/   He would make overly broad statements, and then have to go back and repeatedly qualify them.  He also said, at one point, that he thought I was going to make a Doomsday pile and concede in game 1.  I'm not goin go back and deconstruct his commentary (as that would be a waste of time), but I'd caution folks from taking his word as gospel.  He also misconstrued my position on Doomsday in vintage.  

[emidln]

Steve, was the classic Doomsday for Will+Tendrils an oversight (Recall, Lotus, Ritual, Will, Tendrils) in the game 1 where you eventually found a Brainstorm into Lab Man kill?

[youhavenogame]

@Smmenen

Nothing personal, but would you mind to speed up your play in the future? I know DD is the most complex deck available in any given format right now and the commentators constantly brought up that you wouldn't run it in a timed tournament because all the complex decisions would make you time out, but man, that was just too painful to watch. I even skipped your last match because it took three times as much as any other match. Honestly, while I show huge respect to everyone winning with Doomsday, this is just annoying. I've heard stories of you getting several slow play warnings and I can definitely bear with it. Playing a fancy deck just for the purpose of show-off is one thing, not being able to execute crucial decisions in a timely fashion is another.




Regarding the league itself, it is definitely an enjoyment to watch. Having played in similar small fields myself already, the process of megame development is one of the most interesting things for me. The first season shaped up to be a bit weird though, but it was mainly due to 3 people having the awesome idea to attack the expected format with Merfolk, where Delver or BUG would have been way better options. But hey, as the league progresses, the players will understand the format better.  
Seeing the Martell vs Vintage players debate early on was funny. Everything about that has already been said, though. This week he mentioned that he is getting wrecked in Vintage on Magic Online, which is definitely good for his blown up ego. I don't expect him to change much, but he will be more humble and open minded in the future for sure... at least regarding Vintage

[MaximumCDawg]

That wasn't Steve's fault; its on the commentators.  When you play Doomsday, most of the game involves the Doomsday player figuring out whether they can win on their critical turn.  That's not surprising in the least. 

It's more a job of the commentators to fill the gap with more witty banter.  I mean, having the other players comment is great and for those of you who know each other personally I imagine it's even more fun, but there was an awful lot of dead air.  Just tell war stories, guys, keep the energy up, keep us interested during down time in the matches.  No more relaxing in your chair running numbers we cannot see to check if a Doomsday pile will work?  Run it out in front of us.  A great example would be SMIP's Vintage Scenario podcasts.  That's the pace and quality that'll keep us interested.

[Zeksagmak]

It's more interesting if you want Steve's stream during it as he goes through his thought process.  I realize that they're trying to cast it but I find the decisions and thought processes behind them more interesting than witty banter.  If I wanted to be entertained by witty banter, I'd listen to some standup comedy.  The commentators don't really have control over the flow/speed of the game as they would if they were doing a podcast. 

[diophan]

Thanks for posting your thoughts after each round Steve. Is there any possibility of firing up your channel a bit earlier? The time on the east coast is brutal now that I'm getting old.

How do you feel about the Merfolk matchup? Do you feel that it's actually that good, or you ran a bit hot? I brushed off the digital dust from your Doomsday pdfs and am going to try and get enough practice in to run this at a tournament.

[nedleeds]

I think taking a humble interested attitude might come off better for the dude on the bottom (Tom?). To make broad sweeping statements, and use internetisms like 'in what universe is that correct', then suggest absurd things like casting Doomsday and making a pass the turn pile when your opponent has 5 power make you look like a blowhard. Dismissing flusterstorm, forgetting that Doomsday searches the graveyard ... and my personal favorite Pithing Needle naming Black Lotus.  Just watch, learn and enjoy ... then open your mouth. It was fun watching, and it's free entertainment while I'm at the gym, but I could do without the ego.

[MaximumCDawg]

I didn't see it as ego, just he's trying to give you stream of consciousness while he tries to figure out what Steve is up to.  And, let's be honest here, which one of us would be able to speak remotely intelligently about a Doomsday deck?  It's the Hardest Deck In Magic for a reason.  Does anyone other than Menedian even dare to TRY and play it?

EDIT: Kevin is good at commentary during the Vintage Scenarios stuff that SMIP does.  Anyone tried to get him involved as a commentator?

[nedleeds]

I don't subscribe to the difficulty scale I guess. Magic is a difficult game, but for all the dificulties Doomsday presents it also plays solitaire in another respect. Anyway, even the most novice Doomsday player recognizes you pay 1/2 your life on resolution. Listen to his tone, it is ego, he makes these bold statements and knows basically nothing (I mean if you are pithing needling lotus you actually haven't played eternal magic). Maybe years of grinding people down with Wind Drakes in sealed has sapped his once profound eternal knowledge.

[youhavenogame]

I think taking a humble interested attitude might come off better for the dude on the bottom (Tom?). To make broad sweeping statements, and use internetisms like 'in what universe is that correct', then suggest absurd things like casting Doomsday and making a pass the turn pile when your opponent has 5 power make you look like a blowhard. Dismissing flusterstorm, forgetting that Doomsday searches the graveyard ... and my personal favorite Pithing Needle naming Black Lotus.  Just watch, learn and enjoy ... then open your mouth. It was fun watching, and it's free entertainment while I'm at the gym, but I could do without the ego.

lol. Think I have to watch the match then.

[Smmenen]

I think taking a humble interested attitude might come off better for the dude on the bottom (Tom?). To make broad sweeping statements, and use internetisms like 'in what universe is that correct', then suggest absurd things like casting Doomsday and making a pass the turn pile when your opponent has 5 power make you look like a blowhard. Dismissing flusterstorm, forgetting that Doomsday searches the graveyard ... and my personal favorite Pithing Needle naming Black Lotus.  Just watch, learn and enjoy ... then open your mouth. It was fun watching, and it's free entertainment while I'm at the gym, but I could do without the ego.

Thank you for cataloging the things I was referring to earlier.  I had forgotten most of them.  

@Smmenen

Nothing personal, but would you mind to speed up your play in the future?

Nothing personal, but my only goal is to win games, not to keep the ADD crowd entertained.  

I know DD is the most complex deck available in any given format right now and the commentators constantly brought up that you wouldn't run it in a timed tournament because all the complex decisions would make you time out, but man, that was just too painful to watch. I even skipped your last match because it took three times as much as any other match.

Sounds the proper solution for you.  If you don't have time or find it boring, don't watch.

Honestly, while I show huge respect to everyone winning with Doomsday, this is just annoying. I've heard stories of you getting several slow play warnings and I can definitely bear with it.

You've heard false rumors, then.  

Thanks for posting your thoughts after each round Steve. Is there any possibility of firing up your channel a bit earlier? The time on the east coast is brutal now that I'm getting old.

It's difficult for me to do that.  By the time I'm home, eaten, cleaned-up and have time to fire up the stream, it's pretty last east coast time.  You can always watch the archived video.

How do you feel about the Merfolk matchup? Do you feel that it's actually that good, or you ran a bit hot? I brushed off the digital dust from your Doomsday pdfs and am going to try and get enough practice in to run this at a tournament.

Well, I think there are advantages and disadvantages, and there are tweaks that could be made to improve it, too.   Toxic Deluge is incredible in Doomsday, as it takes life away pre-Doomsday.  Running 1 in the maindeck or SB is definitely an option.  Also, if you run a 2nd Ritual, that probably improves the Merfolk matchup more.

But fundamentally, I think Merfolk is disadvantaged because it gives you too much time.  The earliest it wins is turn 4-5, and you have more disruption than they do to counter their disruption package, and you can win through Null Rod with the Fastbond pile.  Nothing Merfolk does can cripple you and their clock doesn't matter like it does against most decks.

[hashswag]

not being able to execute crucial decisions in a timely fashion is another.

Come on, this isn't legacy where you're expected to drop a land, top, attack, fetch, brainstorm, fetch, top, draw, sword in about 10 seconds total on complete autopilot. You literally have to play out dozens of possible piles in your head to account for anything your opponent might have (and, critically, for anything your opponent might draw/tutor for in the case of multiple turn piles); if you try to play Doomsday heuristically, you're not going to have anywhere near the win percentage that you would if you slowed down and thought it through.

[youhavenogame]

not being able to execute crucial decisions in a timely fashion is another.

Come on, this isn't legacy where you're expected to drop a land, top, attack, fetch, brainstorm, fetch, top, draw, sword in about 10 seconds total on complete autopilot. You literally have to play out dozens of possible piles in your head to account for anything your opponent might have (and, critically, for anything your opponent might draw/tutor for in the case of multiple turn piles); if you try to play Doomsday heuristically, you're not going to have anywhere near the win percentage that you would if you slowed down and thought it through.

Doomsday exists in Legacy as well and even though there might be fewer lines than in Vintage (which I doubt) I've seen enough people executing up to 3 games total in less than 50 minutes.
If the coordinators of the League didn't specify a time limit then so it be. If that is the only way to show off Vintage Doomsday then that means it's no real deck under tournament circumstances though, which in turn means it doesn't represent the format. And, excuse me, but someone sitting over a Brainstorm for more than 5 minutes is just ignorant. The missing flow makes the game harder to comment on and more boring to watch. And except for in this league, one would never get away with that.

[emidln]

I don't think that the 50 minute rounds matter much. It's not the 50 minute rounds that are what enable Doomsday to be easier to pilot, it's that on critical sections (such as how to resolve a Brainstorm, or should I go for this Doomsday here), you can take 8 minutes to figure out the exact right line. Everything else can be played a normal pace (maybe faster, since Doomsday cares so very little about what is actually going on with the other side of the board). Other people do well it in 2-mans, 8-mans, and daily events. Doomsday also picks up top8s here and there in paper Vintage. It just gains more than most decks from a chess clock vs the normal slow play rules.

[Smmenen]

not being able to execute crucial decisions in a timely fashion is another.

Come on, this isn't legacy where you're expected to drop a land, top, attack, fetch, brainstorm, fetch, top, draw, sword in about 10 seconds total on complete autopilot. You literally have to play out dozens of possible piles in your head to account for anything your opponent might have (and, critically, for anything your opponent might draw/tutor for in the case of multiple turn piles); if you try to play Doomsday heuristically, you're not going to have anywhere near the win percentage that you would if you slowed down and thought it through.

Doomsday exists in Legacy as well and even though there might be fewer lines than in Vintage (which I doubt) I've seen enough people executing up to 3 games total in less than 50 minutes.
If the coordinators of the League didn't specify a time limit then so it be. If that is the only way to show off Vintage Doomsday then that means it's no real deck under tournament circumstances though, which in turn means it doesn't represent the format. And, excuse me, but someone sitting over a Brainstorm for more than 5 minutes is just ignorant. The missing flow makes the game harder to comment on and more boring to watch. And except for in this league, one would never get away with that.

No, what's ignorant is that statement's understanding of the online platform.   People can play 5 minute Brainstorms on Magic Online in any format and any tournament and it's not only permissible, it's totally acceptable.

I don't think that the 50 minute rounds matter much. It's not the 50 minute rounds that are what enable Doomsday to be easier to pilot, it's that on critical sections (such as how to resolve a Brainstorm, or should I go for this Doomsday here), you can take 8 minutes to figure out the exact right line. Everything else can be played a normal pace (maybe faster, since Doomsday cares so very little about what is actually going on with the other side of the board). Other people do well it in 2-mans, 8-mans, and daily events. Doomsday also picks up top8s here and there in paper Vintage. It just gains more than most decks from a chess clock vs the normal slow play rules.

Exactly.  The rest of the operations are fairly quick.  25 minutes is plenty of time to tank 8 minutes on 2 Doomsdays.  I've done it all the time in 2-man queues.

[ben_berry]

Is it not possible to pre determine a dozen or so piles for common situations? Like the early chess programs have pre-solved solutions for the first 5 or 6 turns of a game.

[Smmenen]

Is it not possible to pre determine a dozen or so piles for common situations? Like the early chess programs have pre-solved solutions for the first 5 or 6 turns of a game.

Of course.  I already did that.  I have my Doomsday primer: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2261

[Smmenen]

Round 4 matches today!

[Coopes]

Round 4 matches today!

Good luck today man! Rich too!

[wiley]

This is the round that people can change deck lists, right?  I wonder if anyone will stick with merfolk in this set.

[Will]

I feel bad for Rich having to play against Josh's evil twin brother, Jush.

[youhavenogame]

No, what's ignorant is that statement's understanding of the online platform.   People can play 5 minute Brainstorms on Magic Online in any format and any tournament and it's not only permissible, it's totally acceptable.

Not really. If you pull that in a daily it would annoy people but as you already said, it's totally accetable. My concern is that the time set for a League match does not reflect the actual time restriction. As I already said, it's no personal concern but more of a technical one. Maybe I should contact Randy... you just do what is within the rules, but I think it's boring and makes you look rude. Especially if you mention executing the match under the usual 25 minute limit. But ok, apparantly I'm the only one who actually cares.