Vintage Super League

[Killane]

The EE was a significant misplay - moving to upkeep and allowing one flip of the Crypt could have been huge, and there are no commonly played cards (Wipe Away I guess, but not a likely card out of LSV's list) that would have severely punished Pikula for waiting till upkeep.

The rest of the gameplay was pretty solid, but the games felt less interesting an interactive than in the previous sessions. Did anyone else feel that way?

[MaximumCDawg]

I thought Rich Shay's use of Treasure Cruise was pretty huge, too, drawing Misstep, among other cards.  

There is a curious lack of discussion of these Delve cards here.  Is it just because Vintage Champs is right around the corner?  

I'm not sure what there is to say that hasn't been said.  The thread discussing these cards started with people rating the card as decent to good, but certainly playable, and since then even those on the lower end of the spectrum have agreed it is a very good card, perhaps even too good for formats that do not start with a "V."  The critical insights haven't changed since people really understood them a month ago:

(1) Delve rewards you for playing Magic, and is very good.  (See: Goyf)
(2) Delve is not too punishing to run in multiples.  (See: Legendary Jace)
(3) Delve is not easily hated out. (Again, see: Goyf)

and of course

(4) Drawing 3 cards, or tutoring for 2 cards, are very powerful effects.

Given all of that, it feels like the theorycraft discussion is basically over.  Now it's just a question to see which decks can best leverage these cards.  UR Delver is the obvious frontrunner, since it's so tempo-tastic, and maybe it really is the best home.  I doubt people are going to blow the whistle on whatever improved brews they are working on.

TL;DR: Nothing more to say about the cards being good.  It's just about what decks they go in.

[tribet]

Is round 7 on Youtube yet or is it confidential til after Eternal Weekend?

[Jeb Springfield]

Week seven is up on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQQ8jPMFzt7nZULsdHg00hUBo18pz2Ucf

[fsecco]

In my opinion, only the Martell match showed the power of the delve cards (Treasure cruise). In the other matches any draw-spell would've been about the same.

I disagree. Rich, if I remember correctly, drew triple FoW with a Cruise. And LSV was never behind in his games exactly because he resolved a lot of Digs. Dig is harder to evaluate by watching VSL because we can't see what are the top 7 cards. But everytime LSV resolved Dig, he basically got way ahead.

[tribet]

Week seven is up on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQQ8jPMFzt7nZULsdHg00hUBo18pz2Ucf

Thanks man, it looks like round7 got posted just a few hours before me asking!

Anyways, as much as I enjoyed most of these games & the great commentating, I'm a little bit annoyed with the variety of decks represented. I do understand people getting excited by the Khans cards and wanting to break them out. However, I have more of an issue with people actually sharing lists & playing the same 75s.

There may have been a fair bit of this this time around: "I have no clue what to play and I have been too busy lately with Pro-Tour, etc..." why don't you direct them toward other decks from the Vintage Gauntlet that haven't been played yet such as:
- BUG
- Landstill(s)
- UW Stoneforg-ish/Angel-ish
- Dark Times
- Affinity
- Bomberman
- Bear
- Humans
- Noble Fish
- Tezzerator
- White Weeny
- ...

Anyways, here is a random thought for next Super League:
The public get to agree/vote on a Gauntlet of a minimum of 10 different Vintage decks to want to see represented. Each competitor draws one deck at random BUT but they are allowed to sleeve it up in whichever set of 3 rounds they want (adding some spice to the randomness and some next levelling).

[John Cox]

Week seven is up on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQQ8jPMFzt7nZULsdHg00hUBo18pz2Ucf

Thanks man, it looks like round7 got posted just a few hours before me asking!

Anyways, as much as I enjoyed most of these games & the great commentating, I'm a little bit annoyed with the variety of decks represented. I do understand people getting excited by the Khans cards and wanting to break them out. However, I have more of an issue with people actually sharing lists & playing the same 75s.

There may have been a fair bit of this this time around: "I have no clue what to play and I have been too busy lately with Pro-Tour, etc..." why don't you direct them toward other decks from the Vintage Gauntlet that haven't been played yet such as:
- BUG
- Landstill(s)
- UW Stoneforg-ish/Angel-ish
- Dark Times
- Affinity
- Bomberman
- Bear
- Humans
- Noble Fish
- Tezzerator
- White Weeny
- ...

Anyways, here is a random thought for next Super League:
The public get to agree/vote on a Gauntlet of a minimum of 10 different Vintage decks to want to see represented. Each competitor draws one deck at random BUT but they are allowed to sleeve it up in whichever set of 3 rounds they want (adding some spice to the randomness and some next levelling).

Bomberman in pretty unplayable online, as is any deck with arbitrary large numbers.

[tribet]

It's 60min clock but either way, what's interesting is the lead up to it and seeing the deck being run tightly.

I think the players would know when/how to scoop if an infinite loop happens. The commentators would just run the public through what will happen then: "Ok so he draws his entire deck with spellbomb, destroys the whole board with EE, has infinite mana, plays all his 2/2's and eventually casts TimeWalk with 20 counterspells in hand"

We have to assume that the players & the people watching the Vintage Super League have a minimum of understanding of the format and the decks.

[serracollector]

Where is elves goblins and kobold clamp? Mono blue academy belcher? Mono black tendrils? Red deck wins the real one with moons not bomberman. All of these have made several top eights over the last two years. And bears refers to hate bears which is usually white and green dudes that hate on artifacts mana development and drawing mass cards. Like Thalia Gaddock Teeg Pridemage etc etc.

[tribet]

What is Bear?

Hatebears and the like

And do anyone really play white weenie anymore?  

I meant White Trash (which is admittedly a 2012 deck). My point was more that it feels like everybody is playing Delver & Pyromancer. Without going to the extremes, I still think that a fair bunch of other solid strategies have been completely missed out from these 30 rounds.

[tribet]

If 2 players choose to play the exact same deck, it is most probably because they don't face each other (typically Williams & Froelich rds 1-6 if my memory is good). So that's not 20% of the field but it's more like 40% of the games showing that deck for 3 rounds in a row!

If we're unlucky and 1 more player picks the same deck, than that's even worse to keep viewers' interest alive (see 3 Merfolks during rds 1, 2, 3).

I really enjoy the whole thing and that's why I'm giving feedbacks because I want it to be even better for the next one.

[fsecco]

In my opinion, only the Martell match showed the power of the delve cards (Treasure cruise). In the other matches any draw-spell would've been about the same.

I disagree. Rich, if I remember correctly, drew triple FoW with a Cruise. And LSV was never behind in his games exactly because he resolved a lot of Digs. Dig is harder to evaluate by watching VSL because we can't see what are the top 7 cards. But everytime LSV resolved Dig, he basically got way ahead.

well if you had bothered to read like 3 posts down, you would see that i agreed and had simply forgotten about that game.

If you weren't so eager to be rude, you'd also see I mentioned the LSV match, and actually mentioned a Cruise resolution that wasn't the same mentioned in the other post, just to reinforce that notion. No need for this kind of aggressive posting.

Settle down, both of you. -Klep

[tito del monte]

I have to echo Tribet's sentiments slightly. I'm not expecting LSV to rock up and play White Trash - these are competitive people who want to play what they perceive to be the best deck and in this instance, the PT really got in the way - but this last few rounds would have benefitted from more variety.

I think though we need to accept that Vintage online is a new thing. People want to play the broken stuff they associate with the format and many haven't had a chance to really explore the format or have the time to brew something just for an entertaining video series rather than a high stakes PT. I think that will chance if VSL leads to overall more engagement from the pros involved and from viewers generally. And hopefully that might lead to a bit more exploration of the format.

Not knocking anyone. It's been great to see Vintage decks in the hands of the pros (and of course Steve and Rich). But it would be cool to see someone show what can be done with an aggro-control deck in the mould of BUG or UW. Glad at least Martell kept everyone honest with Dredge!

EDIT: Having watched Week 8, I realise Chris Pikula was playing aggro-control, so props to him for that. Just a shame his Esper hatebears brew really lacked the staying power of, say, BUG Fish against the broken decks. As Rich Shay was commenting that match, I would have been been interested to hear his take on Spirit of the Labyrinth, as he had some success with it early on. I guess there's a reason it has quickly fallen by the wayside...

[nedleeds]

His deck is cool, I've played Dromar Wizards a few times. His post game assessment was similar to mine, that without Stony Rod you leave yourself open to just dying to vault key. Most good creature decks play the card(s) for a time honored proven reason. Maybe somebody will bring Stony Treva with Rest In Peace for the playoffs :p

[tito del monte]

His deck is cool, I've played Dromar Wizards a few times. His post game assessment was similar to mine, that without Stony Rod you leave yourself open to just dying to vault key. Most good creature decks play the card(s) for a time honored proven reason. Maybe somebody will bring Stony Treva with Rest In Peace for the playoffs :p

Although it's notable you ditched Stony in your Dega bears deck!

I agreed with his comments about aggro-control afterwards, which is what made me think of BUG - you get the Shamans to help your own acceleration (though that's perhaps more relevant when someone, anyone is playing shops) and you get to pack a Null Rod or two, with Demonic to find them.

Sure Treva is sweet, too....

[evouga]

The last regular season round was held tonight and it featured several exciting matches.

Last week the decks with Delve cards had a pristine record; this time around, they didn't fare as well. I thought Rich would be favored against Bob's Grixis control list, but persistent pressure on Rich's mana base and a few blowout Fire/Ice plays ended the match before the Delver deck could get going.

Steve managed to lose a race against Tom despite resolving an early Tinker; but he saved the match in game 3 when, inexplicably, Tom passed up a chance to land a turn 1 Null Rod on the play. Steve's hand went broken and this time, Inkwell won the race.

But the most dramatic game was the very last one, where Josh was fighting for his life against Dave's Inkwell Leviathan. He Dug and Dug but couldn't mount an effective defense, due in part to his sideboard's lack of Hurkyl's Recall or Tendrils kill, and bad luck in failing to draw a Pyromancer. There *may* have been a line of play that could have won it for him, had he set up a Yawg Will instead of Digging away his Gushes -- I will have to go back and scrutinize the game once it is posted on Youtube.


Congratulations to those who have secured a spot in the playoffs; and thanks also to everyone else who participated in the VSL. The games tonight had over 2000 live viewers on Twitch, and the VSL has regularly created positive buzz on Reddit about the Vintage format. To the extent that the VSL's primary goal was increasing the profile of Vintage, it has been wildly successful.

[The Atog Lord]

Congratulations to everyone who made the elimination rounds. Of course, I had really hoped to be a part of them. However, I can't complain. The VSL helped people who would otherwise have never played or even seen a game of Vintage in their lives the chance to see what a great format this is. I've heard very, very positive feedback from people, both Vintage players and those who focus on other formats.

I would be lying if I said I was thrilled about losing tonight. I had tested the matchup several times with JD Nir, who was kind enough to build the deck and test with me at Eternal Weekend. It was quite favorable each time. In the games themselves, however, things did not go as planned. Bob had his avatar on the first turn in both games, had the key Fire/Ice both games, and both games I had useless Mental Missteps sitting in my hand.

But then, I really can't complain. I just lost to Bob Maher using Dark Confidant two games in a row. It's never fun to lose, but if you're going to have to lose, that's a pretty awesome way for it to happen!

Thanks to JD and Jarvis for helping me theorize about each of my matches, and to Brad and Stu for helping me test. Huge props to Randy for organizing this, and to all of my fellow competitors for putting in the time to make this such a great event.

I'm looking forward to watching the rest of the games.

[fsecco]

It's a shame you aren't in the Top 4 Rich, but then again, losing to Bob with double turn 1 Bobs is actually kinda awesome.

I guess it was good the 7 way tie didn't happen: it would stretch the season a lot with a lot of matches that wouldn't going to be that exciting to watch. Now we get finally to the Top 4 where everyone will want to play their best deck. Nice!

[diophan]

Congratulations to everyone who made the elimination rounds. Of course, I had really hoped to be a part of them. However, I can't complain. The VSL helped people who would otherwise have never played or even seen a game of Vintage in their lives the chance to see what a great format this is. I've heard very, very positive feedback from people, both Vintage players and those who focus on other formats.

I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and participating Rich. I played your NWCS list a couple months back at some local tournaments and ended up taking a list that was based on your VSL list to the MTGO TMD Open and Eternal Weekend. As someone who just recently got back into vintage, it's great to be able to view high level games to get an idea of how decks are supposed to play out.

[The Atog Lord]

Congratulations to everyone who made the elimination rounds. Of course, I had really hoped to be a part of them. However, I can't complain. The VSL helped people who would otherwise have never played or even seen a game of Vintage in their lives the chance to see what a great format this is. I've heard very, very positive feedback from people, both Vintage players and those who focus on other formats.

I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule and participating Rich. I played your NWCS list a couple months back at some local tournaments and ended up taking a list that was based on your VSL list to the MTGO TMD Open and Eternal Weekend. As someone who just recently got back into vintage, it's great to be able to view high level games to get an idea of how decks are supposed to play out.

Thank you. I really appreciate hearing that.

[MaximumCDawg]

Let me thank you guys, too.  I've been watching, but haven't really said thanks yet.  Each of these games is like watching the "Vintage Scenarios" segment of SMIP stretched out over an entire game.  It is a FANTASTIC way to get more exposure to the Vintage metagame, and this is coming from a dude who plays bi-weekly sanctioned Vintage as it is.

As for week nine - congrats, Menedian!  That last game was handed to you on a silver platter, though.  Allowing Vamp tutor to resolve was a bad decision.  I feel like one of the cardinal rules of misstep is you pretty much ALWAYS deploy it to counter anything leading to a serious threat, because you might not be able to counter something later.  Violation of that rule = GG. 

[evouga]

What is the postseason schedule? Will there be matches tonight at the usual time?

[The Atog Lord]

Tonight will have the first round of the playoffs.

[Hrishi]

Tonight is when the tie breakers get settled, right? I believe it's Efro vs David Williams in a best of 3, followed by Steve vs LSV.

[KrauserKrauser]

Are there new decklists or do you have to jam with what you were using last week?

[diophan]

Are there new decklists or do you have to jam with what you were using last week?

Players get to choose one final round of decklists to use for all tiebreakers/playoffs.

[tito del monte]

Wow.... very interesting to see how heavily Steve's Delver list stomped Luis. Brutal.

Also looking forward to seeing Dave Williams' list - seemed like BUG Fish, splashing Dack with (somehow) room for Wastelands in the manabase.... very cool!

Cheers to all the players for another great week's viewing...and another unproductive Wednesday morning here in Berlin

[fsecco]

I don't know how good is LSVs list, but he got pretty unlucky both his games as far as I can tell. He was never into any of the games right from the start. But yes, this Delver list is brutal.

[CHA1N5]

Thanks for the shout-out re: Chains in Stax, Steve.

... oh, wait...

[youhavenogame]

The only thing that I may have missed and which confuses me now is how the t4 actually play out. So, LSV and Menendian had the most points and duked it out for the first slot of the finals, while Efro and Williams essentially just played for a match versus the loser of the other match who still has a chance to make it to the finals this way? That's... weird. What was the explanation for not having just a regular semi and finalmatch, the 3-point difference?