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Author Topic: Feedback on MTGO Vintage PRE Tournament  (Read 4395 times)
Shock Wave
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« on: August 21, 2014, 11:30:01 am »

Hi all,

I am strongly considering running a Vintage tournament on MTGO. The MTGO scheduled events are not ideal (for several reason) and I would like to see an event that is satisfying to the players. Below are the details I have been thinking about:

  • 64 player cap
  • Pre registration required
  • Swiss + Top 8
  • Day: Saturday or Sunday (likely Sunday)
  • Date: Tentative
  • Start Time: 09:00 EST

Varied Entry Fee

  • > 3 days in advance = 20 tix
  • 24-48 hours in advance = 30 tix
  • 12-24 hours in advance = 35 tix
  • 0-12 hours in advance = 40 tix

Guaranteed Prize Structure

1st - 500 tix
2nd - 300 tix
3rd - 120 tix
4th - 120 tix
5th - 60 tix
6th - 60 tix
7th - 60 tix
8th - 60 tix

The idea is that if we cap out at 64 players, that's $1280 in tix (assuming no late entries). I think to give that all back to the event would be make a huge improvement over other MTGO prize structures.

Logistics

  • Wizards Event Reporter would be used and managed by me to run the event
  • Players would gather in the appropriate room for pairings and notifications
  • Pairings and standings would be posted in a thread on TMD

An issue that I thought about was how I could both play in this event and manage it without a conflict of interest. I think some people would be concerned about having to submit their decklists to a TO that is playing in the event. To work around this, I would either need the trust of the community to both play in the event and act with integrity, or someone who is not participating in the event would have to volunteer to take on the responsibility of decklist management.

There seem to be a few issues but I hope we can work through them and get enough interest to make this happen.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 12:03:24 pm »

I personally would be very interested in participating in this, if it happens on a day where I'm not doing anything else. I would also trust Shockwave to act properly with the decklists.
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2014, 01:14:37 pm »

I'd play too. But it depends if I'll be able to finish building a deck in time... Wink
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enderfall
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2014, 02:36:46 pm »

You'll nee to have a minimum number of players to achieve those lofty prizes.

I would also HIGHLY recommend using gatherling.com instead of manually using WER. Trust me when I say that WER is a waste of time and aggravation for online PRE's. There is absolutely no way that someone could run the event and play in it without the time between rounds lasting ~20 minutes or more. With gatherling.com, once everyone has submitted their results, the next rounds pairings are instantly generated. It also eliminates user error.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:42:07 pm by enderfall » Logged
Shock Wave
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2014, 03:57:06 pm »

You'll nee to have a minimum number of players to achieve those lofty prizes.

I would also HIGHLY recommend using gatherling.com instead of manually using WER. Trust me when I say that WER is a waste of time and aggravation for online PRE's. There is absolutely no way that someone could run the event and play in it without the time between rounds lasting ~20 minutes or more. With gatherling.com, once everyone has submitted their results, the next rounds pairings are instantly generated. It also eliminates user error.

I will definitely look into Gatherling if that is the more efficient method. I don't have any experience using it so I could use some help learning the ropes. Regarding the prizes, I will put up the funds myself and hopefully break even. There really is no way to attract players unless the prizes are worthwhile.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 09:02:53 pm »

Scott (Enderfall) didn't mention that he has run a derth of these same events for the Classic format on Gatherling and all have been successful.
He would be a good resource should you have more questions about it.

The event sounds great and I am interested to play. Sunday works best for me.
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 02:30:06 am »

First things first: I'd be 100% playing this.

Other statements:

- I'd not prefer the prizes to be so extremly top heavy - near 10 times as much for the first compared to 5-8 seems just rough to me. I think especially in PREs we can have a "nicer" distribution. But this may just be me, finishing 3-4 way too often ^^

- I love the idea of a varied entry fee, but I think that it is too harsh. It's psychology: nobody would play for 40 Tix when he knows he could have gotten it for 20 Tix. I'd go with 20 - 25 -30 maybe, then most people wouldn't feel so bad when they are forced to decide late by other things.

- If you want to start this off at 09:00 a.m. I think Sunday is the only reasonable day. Saturday should only be considered when starting later. I personally love starting early on Sunday.

- I think these decklist concerns are quite stupid. If I don't trust you, will I trust a third "independant" person? They could still give their friends a heads up, right? In real life Magic, I need to trust the judges, and sometimes they even walk away with my deck Wink Shouldn't be a concern really. If you can find a volunteer that would just be much better because he/she could resolve issues while you are playing and it wouldn't interfere with your own match and eventually the round time.

- Pairings / Standings / Postings could all be handled by Gatherling, and I think it is nice to use a platform created for that specifically. I'd like it better than browsing forums.

- I'd love it! I'd so love to have events like that! Let's do it! Been thinking about setting up something like this myself, but couldn't so far because of schedules... if you need any help, let me know. Would be glad to help!
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 08:43:13 am »

Can the tournament be named something like

Actually Worth it Vintage Tournament
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 09:44:07 am »

Thanks for the feedback!

I'd not prefer the prizes to be so extremly top heavy - near 10 times as much for the first compared to 5-8 seems just rough to me. I think especially in PREs we can have a "nicer" distribution.

I think the best way to go about this is to vote on the distribution. Currently it is set as 39/24/9/9/4.75/4.75/4.75/4.75. I am open to whatever distribution attracts the most players.

Quote
I love the idea of a varied entry fee, but I think that it is too harsh. It's psychology: nobody would play for 40 Tix when he knows he could have gotten it for 20 Tix. I'd go with 20 - 25 -30 maybe, then most people wouldn't feel so bad when they are forced to decide late by other things.

I understand. The idea is to give people a heavy incentive to preregister, thus increasing the likelihood of maxing out at 64 before the events date, and thereby giving the TOs more lead time and the least last minute aggravations possible.

Quote
If you want to start this off at 09:00 a.m. I think Sunday is the only reasonable day. Saturday should only be considered when starting later. I personally love starting early on Sunday.

I think a vote may be best for this too. Sunday at 09:00 gets my vote, but again, it's about what will attract that most players.

Quote
Pairings / Standings / Postings could all be handled by Gatherling, and I think it is nice to use a platform created for that specifically. I'd like it better than browsing forums.

I'm definitely going to need some help with this, so I'm going to reach out to a few folks to see if they're interested, because I don't have the time to devote to figuring it out myself.
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2014, 10:00:05 am »

- I'd not prefer the prizes to be so extremly top heavy - near 10 times as much for the first compared to 5-8 seems just rough to me. I think especially in PREs we can have a "nicer" distribution. But this may just be me, finishing 3-4 way too often ^^

I guess I agree. Something like:
450
250
130
130
80
80
80
80

It would distribute things better but still keep high earnings for all involved. Smile

EDIT:
you could even argue a Top 16 prize structure would be nice, roughly something like
1- 380
2- 180
3/4 - 100
5/8 - 70
9/16 - 30
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 10:03:10 am by fsecco » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 05:28:39 pm »

Was out of town. I will certainly pre-register for something like this, sounds fun!

I will also echo the earlier posts that making the prizes much less top heavy will go a long way in making people happy!
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 02:24:15 pm »

Was out of town. I will certainly pre-register for something like this, sounds fun!

I will also echo the earlier posts that making the prizes much less top heavy will go a long way in making people happy!

I think we're going to go with this:

450
250
130
130
80
80
80
80

For 64 players, Top 16 is a little generous. If this event maxes out and is successful, then I will look to up the number of players for the next one, and have top 16 prizes.
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enderfall
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 09:16:19 am »

WotC PE events (when they offered them) paid out to Top 16 for 33-64 players.
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rickster
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 10:37:16 am »

Here was a prize payout for a Modern PRE with 57 players

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhLez4zEwHkIdHN4OXAtVGkyVTczSndBRll3UDRhcmc#gid=14

Notice they got WotC to help with prizes, along with other bot sponsors. It paid out "700" tix worth or prizes despite there being no entry fee.
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Montolio
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 10:51:42 am »

We actually had some solid support from wotc earlier on in the Classic PE's and certainly in the POTY awards.
I can't remember the actual amount of boosters they gave out, but they weren't insignificant.
Scott you can probably remember the details better then I.
I am sure if you approach them they would support something like this.
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enderfall
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 11:14:30 am »

We actually had some solid support from wotc earlier on in the Classic PE's and certainly in the POTY awards.
I can't remember the actual amount of boosters they gave out, but they weren't insignificant.
Scott you can probably remember the details better then I.
I am sure if you approach them they would support something like this.

There are two reasons that I doubt WotC would support this kind of tournament:

1. There is a limit to how many players can join: WotC was very clear that they supported my "open" qualifiers, but not the "closed" Invitational. They frown upon any kind of "exclusivity", which having a player limit clearly falls under.
2. There is a required entry fee: Mike Turian was also concerned with supporting an event that someone had to pay an entry fee to join.

Here was a prize payout for a Modern PRE with 57 players

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhLez4zEwHkIdHN4OXAtVGkyVTczSndBRll3UDRhcmc#gid=14

Notice they got WotC to help with prizes, along with other bot sponsors. It paid out "700" tix worth or prizes despite there being no entry fee.

There are two very distinct differences bwteen those large Modern PRE's.

1. It was a specific celebration of a format milestone (it was an anniversary event)
2. The TO, blippytheslug, runs many different PRE's and has developed a relationship with all of his sponsors through the years. No one here has nearly the same kind of sway that Blippy has.

Blippy also already runs a "monthly" Vintage event, so asking for his help on this is probably pointless.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 11:17:55 am by enderfall » Logged
Shock Wave
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 11:18:21 am »

We actually had some solid support from wotc earlier on in the Classic PE's and certainly in the POTY awards.
I can't remember the actual amount of boosters they gave out, but they weren't insignificant.
Scott you can probably remember the details better then I.
I am sure if you approach them they would support something like this.

There are two reasons that I doubt WotC would support this kind of tournament:

1. There is a limit to how many players can join: WotC was very clear that they supported my "open" qualifiers, but not the "closed" Invitational. They frown upon any kind of "exclusivity", which having a player limit clearly falls under.
2. There is a required entry fee: Mike Turian was also concerned with supporting an event that someone had to pay an entry fee to join.

This is very interesting news. It seems like it is at least worth a conversation with WOTC. The point of having the entry fee is so that I can guarantee the prizes without losing my shirt if not many players register. However, I'll be more than happy to waive the entry fee if WOTC is willing to guarantee their prizes. If not, then I'm fine with sticking to 64 players and guaranteeing a decent pot for everyone.

Any idea who to contact?
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enderfall
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 11:53:38 am »

When I say "support", I mean them offering up prizes, not that they condemn the PRE in general. It's honestly a gray area for WotC and they purposely don't want to make any specific guidelines in their policy else they leave something out and someone takes advantage of it.

Also, the prizes, were nothing more than 12 packs of the recent block set (i.e. 4 "draft packs") for 1st place, 6 packs for 2nd and 3 packs for 3-8. Nothing to write home about.

Nonetheless, Mike Turian is the guy to speak to.
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2014, 09:49:14 pm »

Ok, so it looks like we're close to posting the event. Just as a FYI to the community, it is probably going to look something like this:

Date: Sunday October 5th 2014
Start Time: 9:00AM EST

Cost:

> 3 days in advance = 20 tix
24-48 hours in advance = 30 tix
12-24 hours in advance = 35 tix
0-12 hours in advance = 40 tix

Format: Vintage
Structure: Swiss with cut to Top 8
Player Limit: 64

Guaranteed Prizes:

1st - 450
2nd - 250
3rd - 130
4th - 130
5th - 80
6th - 80
7th - 80
8th - 80

We're still sorting out the logistics part of it, but we should be ready to make a formal announcement next week. If anyone has any further suggestions, feel free to chime in.
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2014, 04:50:53 am »

I think the overall structure is great - unfortunately I'm on vacation that weekend, so I won't be able to play.
If you can get a contribution from WotC for future tournaments it'll be a great addition =)
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 10:25:09 pm »

Ok, so it looks like we're close to posting the event. Just as a FYI to the community, it is probably going to look something like this:

Date: Sunday October 5th 2014
Start Time: 9:00AM EST

...

We're still sorting out the logistics part of it, but we should be ready to make a formal announcement next week. If anyone has any further suggestions, feel free to chime in.

8 AM local (Central) would be pretty hard for me, to say nothing of the guys on the West coast getting up at ~5 to play Magic at 6. I'm sure this time makes it easier for the European community to potentially join in, but consider how many people you might lose to having to play that early.
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2014, 08:35:22 am »

Speaking for myself: 9 est (which is 10am here) would be OK with me any other day. But Oct 5th is election day here, so if it starts a little later it would be great since I could vote and then be back home in time. Wink
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2014, 10:53:27 pm »

That payout is ignorant. Gatherling is hosting regular vintage events that can't hit a dozen players. I've advertised them twice here.
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 07:05:29 am »

Great idea, Shock Wave. Definitely count me in.

Maybe move the starting time up by 2-3 hours? I heard the West Coast scene is not small. That way it would start at around 5-6 pm for mid Europeans and finish between 12 and 1 am, which is totally suitable.

You should start advertising your event more public though. Maybe consider writing an article for Puremtgo or similar sites? Otherwise it could be hard to hit the anticipated 64.
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enderfall
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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2014, 08:55:45 am »

That payout is ignorant. Gatherling is hosting regular vintage events that can't hit a dozen players. I've advertised them twice here.

Can you elaborate? Are you saying that it's gatherling's fault, or that Vintage PRE's are doomed?

Either way, it's all about promoting the event, which I don't believe blippytheslug has given 100% effort to get the word out...
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« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2014, 01:31:02 pm »

I'd participate. A few comments:

1. Definitely Sunday rather than Saturday;

2. I agree that starting ~2 hours later is better. I'm in Central so 9 EST would still be OK, but I can't imagine anyone on the west coast getting up for a 6:00 AM tourney.

3. I prefer a flatter prize structure (with prizes for the entire top 16) but that's not a dealbreaker for me.
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2014, 09:05:13 am »

The event has been posted. Hope to see everyone there!
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2014, 09:43:12 am »

I've never used Gatherling before... how do I register for the tournament? Also, when I try to click on the rules, nothing happens (it just takes me back to the same page).
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2014, 09:53:51 am »

I've never used Gatherling before... how do I register for the tournament? Also, when I try to click on the rules, nothing happens (it just takes me back to the same page).

I've posted the instructions in the tournament announcement thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46780.0 . I believe the instructions answer your questions, but if you're still having difficulty, let me know how I can help.
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2014, 09:57:24 am »

Oh, thanks, didn't see you had made a separate TMD thread.
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