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Author Topic: Pitch Dredge (formerly "Manaless Dredge 2014")  (Read 17746 times)
ajfirecracker
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« on: August 27, 2014, 05:24:41 am »

It looks like Manaless is a thing again. There's my list here which is a much slower, more controlling list. We're also starting to see some development on the concept such as this 5-0 list from a Vintage Online Champs qualifier, which is very similar to mine but runs a few speedier options and cuts/adjusts a bit of the disruption. This positions the deck more strongly against non-storm win conditions as well as opposing swarm decks (Dredge, Young Pyro, Workshop Affinity). I would guess that it's slightly weaker versus blue decks as well as storm.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 09:10:14 pm by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 02:57:05 pm »

What do these lists do against Hate piece + wasteland?  This seems like a fairly easy thing for shops to assemble that makes it nearly impossible to win against.  The MD's lack of mana and speed components also seem to suggest it can struggle to beat a strong opener from a shops opponent.

I feel like these decks are performing well mostly due to the surprise factor game 2/3 and the price of wasteland on Mtgo.  The extra disruption is nice, but it doesn't seem like its enough to sacrifice all of the advantages that bloodghast gives you game 1 and actually having mana gives you game 2/3. 
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 03:13:22 pm »

Wasteland is one of the best main-deckable answers to dredge.  Since they cost $1M each and nobody can afford/play them, it seems like skimping on answers/mana is fine since your bazaar isn't getting buried anytime soon on MTGO.

Paper magic ftw.
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ajfirecracker
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 04:13:09 pm »

The cost of Wasteland is definitely a factor, unfortunately. Hopefully the price will come down and we can see a more natural metagame adaptation. In my list, I make the biggest hedge against Wasteland possible (in Manaless anyway) by running the full 4 Petrified Field and Library of Alexandria.

Vs. Shops specifically it's highly, highly dependent on which cards they're running, but I will often play counters+graveyard stuff+Dark Depths combo (trimming here and there to squeeze in everything I need) which makes it quite common to go off with Petrified Field/Library as Wasteland protection, or to simply counter the Turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage and win off the graveyard.

It's a very even matchup, one of the ones least in our favor (as they do run 5+ Strip Mine effects and a fast clock), but I think most Shops decks still lose to this a (slim) majority of the time.

If you're already running 6+ hate pieces in your sideboard (for the scenario you mentioned, you have to have hate and get it through the counters) then you probably can't afford to tweak your Jace Control deck or your BUG Value-Shaman deck to have too many Wastelands. A lot of decks in this format just cannot afford to run so many Wasteland. I think some of those decks should start running 1x Strip Mine in the sideboard as a hedge against Dredge+Shops (there are so few cards that overlap this well) that might sometimes come in against Cavern of Souls or other value lands (Forbidden Orchard? Maybe?)

I think the worst matchup is actually Merfolk, if and only if they run a ton of land-destruction lands. Cavern of Souls also has some value (to turn off Chancellor of the Annex's trigger) but the Wasteland/Strip/Ghost effects are just too important in the matchup to really value Cavern.

Actually, I take that back (not deleting because the thought is important)... I think the real worst matchup is other dredge decks because you're fighting pretty hard just to get to 50%... Terrodactyl's 5-0 qualifier list is definitely built with that in mind (see 2x Tormod's Crypt, Elesh Norn, Flame-Kin Zealot in the main)
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kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 05:17:33 pm »

If you're already running 6+ hate pieces in your sideboard (for the scenario you mentioned, you have to have hate and get it through the counters) then you probably can't afford to tweak your Jace Control deck or your BUG Value-Shaman deck to have too many Wastelands. A lot of decks in this format just cannot afford to run so many Wasteland. I think some of those decks should start running 1x Strip Mine in the sideboard as a hedge against Dredge+Shops (there are so few cards that overlap this well) that might sometimes come in against Cavern of Souls or other value lands (Forbidden Orchard? Maybe?)

Your assumption that they don't have space is false.  In paper magic there are plenty of Jace control and bug decks running wasteland.  Keeper+landstill are both Jace decks that play wasteland that have been extremely successful, and to be quite honest many more decks could and probably should also run them (dropping their off color power).  Every BUG fish deck in paper run 3-5 strip effects.

Actually, I take that back (not deleting because the thought is important)... I think the real worst matchup is other dredge decks because you're fighting pretty hard just to get to 50%... Terrodactyl's 5-0 qualifier list is definitely built with that in mind (see 2x Tormod's Crypt, Elesh Norn, Flame-Kin Zealot in the main)

Dredge mirrors are almost entirely about the skill of the player, and to a smaller extent the luck of your first few dredges since whoever gets more bridge triggers usually wins.  Cards that require they be in your hand, like leyline of the void and tormod's crypt, are extremely unreliable in the match up, elesh norn main deck is certainly something in the mirror though.

EDIT:  Petrified field is not particularly great at answering a wasteland game 1 as it take a full turn later for it to have any real impact on the game state, usually giving your opponent time to establish their game plan.  Also nontrivally its shut off by deathrite.  Games 2/3 it seems great in this list for beating grafdigger's since it can still grab your stage+depths from the yard, but is a terrible card against graveyard hate that exiles as all it does is tap for 1 colorless mana.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:27:34 pm by vaughnbros » Logged
ajfirecracker
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 06:19:34 am »

You may be right about the "value" decks having space for 5x Strip Mine effects. I haven't seen it but it's certainly possible.

On the other hand you are definitely wrong about Petrified Field as an anti-Wasteland card. You win most games against most Wasteland decks with well over a turn of breathing room - the alternative of just not dredging is way worse than taking a single turn where you only get your draw step.
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kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 09:01:55 am »

um, why is this deck called manaless dredge?  it makes no sense.  

This deck actually taps the most lands for mana of any dredge deck I've ever seen in an eternal format.  The fact that the guy who wrote that article calls his deck manaless drives me stark raving mad. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 10:07:35 am by gkraigher » Logged
vaughnbros
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 10:17:46 am »

You may be right about the "value" decks having space for 5x Strip Mine effects. I haven't seen it but it's certainly possible.

On the other hand you are definitely wrong about Petrified Field as an anti-Wasteland card. You win most games against most Wasteland decks with well over a turn of breathing room - the alternative of just not dredging is way worse than taking a single turn where you only get your draw step.

I'm not talking about the physical end of the game.  The point is that 1 wasteland regardless of pet field you are slowed to the point where they can play their disruption, spheres or counterspells, and you can't just go combo mode at that point.  3 pet fields is such a small hedge against waste in the first place as you only have  25% chance of opening with one along side your bazaar.  It's such a terrible card game 2/3 against most decks and does nothing to stop wasteland on Dark depths that it doesn't seem worthy of a slot over a better land, like wasteland, dakmor, or something else.

um, why is this deck called manaless dredge?  it makes no sense.  

This deck actually taps the most lands for mana of any dredge deck I've ever seen in an eternal format.  The fact that the guy who wrote that article calls his deck manaless drives me stark raving mad.  

I agree the name makes no sense.  It's running about the same number of mana producing lands as other dredge lists, but needs 2 mana+depths+stage, or at least 3+ lands to beat any type of hate.
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 12:56:45 pm »

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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 01:00:49 pm »

Probably because he wanted Fow/Mindbreak Trap. He beat me and round 2 and it felt fairly unfair to play against counters and dredge.

Also Chalice is not great on the draw and a lot of popular decks can play around it quite easily. (BUG, Delver, etc.)
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 01:20:15 pm »

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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 02:56:01 pm »

Jaco @ Eternal Central was the one who added "Manaless" to the tag line - I went with it because of the similarity of this deck to the old Manaless builds with free disruption (Leyline, Chalice, Unmask, etc)

If you use free counterspells instead of free hate cards, these decks start to look very similar.

Post-bard you bring in mana along with the Dark Depths package.

The current 'standard' dredge decks, from what I've seen, have Undiscovered Paradise, Bloodghast, City of Brass, and sometimes a few other rainbow lands maindeck PLUS spells in the maindeck that consume mana. Indicating to the reader/player that this deck follows a different build seems worthwhile.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:25:25 pm by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 01:06:48 am »

Fine then call it "free dredge" or "depths dredge" because "manaless" is just plain wrong.
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ajfirecracker
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 01:38:26 am »

This January 2007 Stephen Menendian article details Manaless Ichorid in the pre-Narcomoeba, pre-Bridge from Below environment. As you can see, "Manaless Ichorid" at the time already referred to a deck featuring Petrified Field, Strip Mine (which is an analog to Library in terms of mana production) and non-mana utility lands.

This April 2007 article, also from Stephen Menendian includes the early use of Bridge from Below and Narcomoeba, getting this list quite close to the modern configurations.

In both cases, the inclusion of Petrified Field was not enough to dissuade anyone from calling this Manaless Ichorid. Stephen's use of the term in these articles is accepted and reflects Vintage deck-naming at the time as well as in the period since.

Given that the current deck under consideration is virtually identical, Manaless is fitting both historically and in a technical sense (as Petrified Field will rarely tap for mana in game 1).

In contrast, "Mana Ichorid" used spells to speed it up and/or find Bazaar of Baghdad. It could also be used for additional disruption such as Duress as in this case.

It's common for other authors to use "Manaless Ichorid" to denote a deck whose primary game plan does not involve casting spells, such as this Matt Elias article with 4 Dryad Arbor maindeck and Meadbert's primer from this very site which includes 4 City of Brass in the maindeck (but virtually no spells that are intended to be cast with those 4 lands).

I'm sorry if you don't like the terminology, but this is widely accepted and widely used. "Manaless" means the game 1 plan does not revolve around the use of mana. It does not mean that there are literally zero mana sources in the main-deck.

I am partial to "Drepths" as a term for this sideboard (in the context of Dredge).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:36:01 am by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 03:15:37 am »

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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 05:10:14 pm »

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69469

please stop calling decklists that have lands that tap for mana "manaless" because it makes you lose instant credibility.  

While I like Stephen Medenian a lot, and respect what he has to say, that doesn't make everything he says scripture.  

I like "drepths" a lot.  
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 05:13:10 pm by gkraigher » Logged
ajfirecracker
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 05:26:15 pm »

Why no Chalice of the void? Seems like it would give a few free wins.

One is your blue card count, there's a limit to how many non-blue hand-based cards you can fit in. The same applies to Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Maze of Ith, Ravenous Trap, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (which is playable in this deck), and the rest of the mana-free options.

Perhaps the more important point is that Tormod's Crypt stops a different set of cards than Chalice. The dredge mirror is one important example, but I think the real decider is actually the blue-based finishers. Neither card does too much about Vault/Key, but Chalice is a pretty effective hoser for Tinker, and Crypt is obviously an effective hoser for Yawgmoth's Will. I would say that Will has risen in relative importance recently, and Tinker has decreased in relative importance (with the exception of finding Vault/Key).

The issue with using Chalice to shut off the second half of Vault/Key (off a Tinker) is that instead of assembling V/K they sacrifice the part of V/K they do have for Blightsteel. V/K are typically 2 of the 3 non-zero-mana artifacts, so drawing one of them actually turns TINKER on, and not the other way around. The result is that Chalice is somewhat effective at slowing down decks in a generic sense, but doesn't address V/K and is mainly a tactic to counter Tinker->Colossus.

Given the relative importance of these finishers, and the ability of the Dredge maindeck to typically beat 1 or even 2 Colossus swings, Tormod's Crypt might actually be the right choice against blue decks as well as graveyard decks like dredge.

(Or Ravenous Trap? There are a few options here)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:45:48 pm by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
ajfirecracker
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 05:31:45 pm »

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69469

please stop calling decklists that have lands that tap for mana "manaless" because it makes you lose instant credibility. 

While I like Stephen Medenian a lot, and respect what he has to say, that doesn't make everything he says scripture. 

I like "drepths" a lot. 

My point wasn't "Stephen Menendian said it so it's right" it was "this is how people refer to this type of deck" which is why I linked Matt Elias (and presumably Justin Nguyen) and Meadbert.

In Legacy it's common for the "Manaless" Dredge deck to contain mana sources. Nicholas Rausch's list had Dakmor Salvage at SCG Cincinatti. Hollywood's Northeast Legacy Champs lists usually had Dryad Arbor, and Geo Thornton's SCG Indy list this June had Dryad Arbor.

In all these cases, event commentators and the wider Magic community referred to these decks as "Manaless Dredge" or "Manaless Ichorid"

The purpose of the name is to tell you in rough terms how the deck operates, not to describe the whole 75 in detail. If it were, we would just post lists with no names. Instead we use shorthand terms that need to indicate a strategy more than they need to be literally accurate.

Other examples that might drive you crazy: Fish with no Merfolk, Stax with no Smokestacks, TPS without being perfect, Workshop Affinity which typically runs zero Affinity cards, Legacy Affinity which sometimes runs zero Affinity cards (although often Thoughtcast does make it in so technically there's one), 43 lands.dec which now usually has under 40 land, and so on
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 05:38:58 pm by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 06:26:46 pm »

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69469

please stop calling decklists that have lands that tap for mana "manaless" because it makes you lose instant credibility.  

While I like Stephen Medenian a lot, and respect what he has to say, that doesn't make everything he says scripture.  

I like "drepths" a lot.  

those decks are called "manaless" because they don't tap their lands for mana to cast their spells.   Petrified Field was not used to tap for mana, but to get a second Bazaar or to recur one that was Wastelanded.

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gkraigher
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2014, 07:41:16 pm »

Quote
Other examples that might drive you crazy: Fish with no Merfolk, Stax with no Smokestacks, TPS without being perfect, Workshop Affinity which typically runs zero Affinity cards, Legacy Affinity which sometimes runs zero Affinity cards (although often Thoughtcast does make it in so technically there's one), 43 lands.dec which now usually has under 40 land, and so on

well fish doesn't have to have merfolk in it, but merfolk has to have merfolk in it.  fish is a different creature type entirely, with no competitive ones in existence.  stax with no smokestaks is called MUD, TPS is fine because the word "perfect" has no direct meaning in magic.  Affinity without cards with affinity is actually fine too because each individual card in the deck is bad on its own, but together the deck works great as a whole.  That sounds like a pretty good definition of the word affinity.  just because it is a keyword on a few magic cards, doesn't mean it has to be in the deck.  And lastly 43 lands.dec is now just called lands.  

I'm even OK with decks running dryad arbor to be considered manaless because unless your opponent is running a card like daze, it will never tap for mana in a match.  

But this deck clearly has lines where you tap for mana.  I don't care if you use it to cast spells or not, you actively generate mana with all the mana sources you are running.  Nothing about that is manaless.

I'm done.  I'm withdrawing from this conversation.  Just let it be known that I view the deck name as a misnomer and think it should be something more fitting.  

On the flip side, I think the deck is cool and well designed.  I like how it has found a way to attack the graveyard hate that gets thrown at dredge.  I like how it can mix it up in game 3 as well.  I really like it, I just loathe the name.  
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:55:29 pm by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 08:23:56 pm »

"Cagebreaker Dredge": I associate this variant with Erik Hegemann winner of BOM6 in May 2012. Ingot Chewer (or Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor,...) in the main and most important to me was the lack of Dread Return package and Leyline in the main.

"Dark Depths Dredge": I associate this with variants of dredge that include Dark Depths tricks (often coming from the side to work around typical dredge hate in G2 & G3). The first time I stumbled across this was 1st place Gil Rivera in Jan 2012. Check this thread. If you want a fancy name, I'll say that "DD Dredge" is less confusing than "Drepths".

"Pitch Dredge": I associate this with variants of dredge focussing on fighting the stack with stuff like: Chancellor of Annex, FOW, Mindbreak Trap... while slow cooking the opponent with a constant flow of free critters. It's been popping recently on MODO. See ajfirecracker's article here

"Lab Maniac Dredge": I'm not familiar with this variant at all. It runs Divining Witch, Lab Maniac, etc... See Vaughnbros's primer

After that, I call all the rest "Dredge". The core of the deck is the same: generate broken by dredging, flashbacking or casting stuff for "free" (Icho, Bloodghast, Unmask, Therapy, Misstep, Bridge, Dread Return, Darkblast...). Some spice it up with Sun Titan, Sharuum, Fastesticher, Griselbrand, Flame-Kin Zealot... often looking for extra speed while increasing their variance or reducing their ability to adapt to the game's state and/or opposing threats. Others mix all the above and come up with confussing names.

Maybe somebody could do a nice write up on all that, similar than what has been done for the MUD decks (Espresso, Terra Nova, Martello, ...)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 10:09:52 pm by tribet » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2014, 10:38:00 pm »

No dredge deck really uses mana game 1 anymore unless it's opponent forces it to so by the definitions here every dredge deck is actually manaless dredge.  It's almost like saying manalock workshops, or tempo fish.  It's just not informative.

"Cagebreaker Dredge": I associate this variant with Erik Hegemann winner of BOM6 in May 2012. Ingot Chewer (or Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor,...) in the main and most important to me was the lack of Dread Return package and Leyline in the main.

"Dark Depths Dredge": I associate this with variants of dredge that include Dark Depths tricks (often coming from the side to work around typical dredge hate in G2 & G3). The first time I stumbled across this was 1st place Gil Rivera in Jan 2012. Check this thread. If you want a fancy name, I'll say that "DD Dredge" is less confusing than "Drepths".

"Pitch Dredge": I associate this with variants of dredge focussing on fighting the stack with stuff like: Chancellor of Annex, FOW, Mindbreak Trap... while slow cooking the opponent with a constant flow of free critters. It's been popping recently on MODO. See ajfirecracker's article here

"Lab Maniac Dredge": I'm not familiar with this variant at all. It runs Divining Witch, Lab Maniac, etc... See Vaughnbros's primer

After that, I call all the rest "Dredge". The core of the deck is the same: generate broken by dredging, flashbacking or casting stuff for "free" (Icho, Bloodghast, Unmask, Therapy, Misstep, Bridge, Dread Return, Darkblast...). Some spice it up with Sun Titan, Sharuum, Fastesticher, Griselbrand, Flame-Kin Zealot... often looking for extra speed while increasing their variance or reducing their ability to adapt to the game's state and/or opposing threats. Others mix all the above and come up with confussing names.

Maybe somebody could do a nice write up on all that, similar than what has been done for the MUD decks (Espresso, Terra Nova, Martello, ...)

This seems like a decent classification of dredge lists, although there is a lot of overlap in the different builds of dredge, this build for example would be both DD+pitch.  If I can find the time I can try to do a write up as I'm familiar with most of the deck lists.
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 11:50:37 pm »

I was under the impression Fatesticher was still a common inclusion - to me, this definitely qualifies as a mana use Game 1 to try to untap Bazaar and win out more quickly.
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kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2014, 12:07:44 am »

I was under the impression Fatesticher was still a common inclusion - to me, this definitely qualifies as a mana use Game 1 to try to untap Bazaar and win out more quickly.

Drawing a distinction between fatestitcher and non fatestitcher lists is still kind of a stretch.  It's not really much more than a singleton in most lists, and is not particularly impactful in such lists either.  Mana is really unimportant in game 1 other than for triggering bloodghasts, which pet field would do anyway if you chose to run them.  The point is there is certainly a better more distinct name for the list you are playing, even if I was to restrict it to the "manaless" lists you pointed out there is a large variation between your deck and those especially game 2/3 where you plan to use mana to put a 20/20 flying indestructible into play.
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2014, 01:51:17 am »

Some spice it up with Sun Titan, Sharuum, Fastesticher, Griselbrand, Flame-Kin Zealot... often looking for extra speed while increasing their variance or reducing their ability to adapt to the game's state and/or opposing threats.
Maybe having a "Turbo Dredge" family for the above would make sense but I agree with vaughnbros: in today's modern Vintage, "Manaless Dredge" doesn't really make sense. It's what the deck does, it's not meant to Cast/Evoke/Unearth/Flashback/Madness/Activate anything more than 1CC. Cabal Therapy is definitely an auto-include in all of the variants and it is often being hardcast because it is that strong.

Even if somebody comes up with a wicked brew starring: 4 Winds of Change + 4 Visions of Beyond + 4 Breakthrough, I would still rather call it "UR Dredge" rather than "Mana Dredge" (saying that "tribet's Dredge" would sound super nice too! Wink)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:04:25 am by tribet » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2014, 02:06:14 am »

Fair enough.

I think the decks are more important than the names.

I'm optimistic for the Vintage Online Champs in the morning - there are at least two players who qualified with a Force/Misstep/Mindbreak list with Dark Depths in the sideboard, and a few on "normal" Dredge with Bloodghast and Undiscovered Paradise.

EDIT: Can't find any event coverage, but terrordactyl told me that he and hayseed had middling results. Sounds like no instances of Dredge with Force of Will in the top 8.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 05:15:50 pm by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
vaughnbros
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2014, 09:13:45 am »

I think the decks are more important than the names.

I agree which is why I think it's important to differentiate the decks.

Hopefully we see something cool from the Vintage Online Champs.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2014, 09:42:19 pm »

Hopefully we see something cool from the Vintage Online Champs.

Nope. Pretty standard.

As far as the Dark Depths Dredge/Manaless Dredge/Drepths (sounds like a disease), I think the metagame in the champs shifted towards more Wasteland decks like BUG Fish (2 in Top 8) and Shops (3 in Top 8). Also, Dredge is more common online and I think decks are pretty well prepared to deal with it. Perhaps the OP or one of the pilots could comment more on this.
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2014, 10:25:49 pm »

I haven't played in a week or two but I did 4-0 my most recent Daily Event as shown here.

If the meta has shifted to be really hostile (in the space of 10 days) I would be surprised - it might be more the fact that this was a virtual 10+ round event (5 for quals, then cut, then however many for the Champs event) which tends to focus the metagame and rewards very techy decks (with accurate metagame predictions) above and beyond the normal level of incentives.

I think I'm heavily favored vs BUG Fish (not quite as much as most fair decks but still substantially), and very weakly favored vs Shops. Against Shops it's usually going to be a matter of stealing either game 2 or 3 through their graveyard hate, with the Dark Depths plan as a supplement if you can work it in.

Chubby - where did you find event results? I can't find any coverage anywhere
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:33:41 pm by ajfirecracker » Logged

kingneckbeard on MTGO

"I fully believe that if Dredge could play a transformational sideboard it would just win all the tournaments yet it just doesn’t have one because there is just nothing that it can play. It’d be awesome to completely ignore all those very specific hate cards people bring against you but how are you going to do that?" - Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2014, 12:30:01 am »

I wrote down every deck that qualified and assumed that they were on similar lists. I also played 3-4 players in the top 8.
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
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