Pitch Dredge (formerly "Manaless Dredge 2014")

[saspook]

What deck list would you play if there were no budget concerns? Lotus? Misdirection?

[TheWhiteDragon]

My own version of aggro shops. Hard to beat it.  You can't even cast your sb hate vs a good shops lock, so that's definitely the route I'd go.  Turn 1 shop, mox, chalice 0, golem -  turn 2 waste, tangle wire...gg

[vaughnbros]

My own version of aggro shops. Hard to beat it.  You can't even cast your sb hate vs a good shops lock, so that's definitely the route I'd go.  Turn 1 shop, mox, chalice 0, golem -  turn 2 waste, tangle wire...gg

If you can manage to jam a shops deck in the sideboard of dredge I'd be impressed.

[Chubby Rain]

Pitch Phyrexian Metamorph to Misdirection and redirect nature's claim from golem back to a mox? I like it.

[Bill Copes]

My own version of aggro shops. Hard to beat it.  You can't even cast your sb hate vs a good shops lock, so that's definitely the route I'd go.  Turn 1 shop, mox, chalice 0, golem -  turn 2 waste, tangle wire...gg

If you can manage to jam a shops deck in the sideboard of dredge I'd be impressed.

This was a fun thought experiment:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Mental Misstep
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Narcomeoba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Serum Powder
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage


SB
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Tangle Wire
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

[ajfirecracker]

Haven't played in about a month, ran a 4-0 this weekend in a Daily
(thought it was the qualifier for the Vintage Holiday Festival, didn't realize that had already happened   )

Same 75, just cut Mana Crypt for another Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

It was all blue decks, lost to some broken starts in some game 2s, free counterspells were amazing (as always), played through some ridiculous post-board games (ex: Killed Trygon Predator with Marit Lage, got Jace'd, made another Marit Lage, killed opponent)

[vaughnbros]

Haven't played in about a month, ran a 4-0 this weekend in a Daily
(thought it was the qualifier for the Vintage Holiday Festival, didn't realize that had already happened   )

Same 75, just cut Mana Crypt for another Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

It was all blue decks, lost to some broken starts in some game 2s, free counterspells were amazing (as always), played through some ridiculous post-board games (ex: Killed Trygon Predator with Marit Lage, got Jace'd, made another Marit Lage, killed opponent)

Congrats on the finish.  This version of dredge seems even better positioned now with the influx of oath and delver decks.  What are you typically sideboarding out against each archetype?

[Samoht]

My own version of aggro shops. Hard to beat it.  You can't even cast your sb hate vs a good shops lock, so that's definitely the route I'd go.  Turn 1 shop, mox, chalice 0, golem -  turn 2 waste, tangle wire...gg

If you can manage to jam a shops deck in the sideboard of dredge I'd be impressed.

Someone just played Shops and Dredge together at a local event. Lost their win and in for t8.

[vaughnbros]

My own version of aggro shops. Hard to beat it.  You can't even cast your sb hate vs a good shops lock, so that's definitely the route I'd go.  Turn 1 shop, mox, chalice 0, golem -  turn 2 waste, tangle wire...gg

If you can manage to jam a shops deck in the sideboard of dredge I'd be impressed.

Someone just played Shops and Dredge together at a local event. Lost their win and in for t8.

That is sweetness.  Is there a deck list?

[ajfirecracker]

This version of dredge seems even better positioned now with the influx of oath and delver decks.  What are you typically sideboarding out against each archetype?

Sideboarding Guide here

The default plan against hate-heavy decks (read: all blue decks) is to take out the graveyard stuff as much as possible and bring in the lands combo.

Remove all of:
-Dread Return
-Ichorid
-Golgari Grave-Troll
-Bridge from Below

Bring in the whole sideboard.

Post-board, the only graveyard cards you have are:
-Cabal Therapy (can be cast and often flashed back)
-Narcomoeba (pitches to Force)
-Golgari Thug (1/1 body, also can recur Hexmage sometimes)
-Stinkweed Imp (1/2 flying Deathtouch can stall out a lot of aggro decks)
-Chancellor of the Annex (opening-hand effect)

So as you can see there are zero totally blank cards post-board, which is important when you consider the huge shift from one linear strategy to another.

Incidentally, this is why I recommend a list very close to mine if you're going to use this sideboard. The countermagic and Library of Alexandria and Chancellor of the Annex and Petrified Field all work to make the lands combo more playable and more resilient. Jamming it into the sideboard of a "normal" Dredge deck is not going to be nearly as effective.

Someone just played Shops and Dredge together at a local event. Lost their win and in for t8.

I'd love to see that list!

[vaughnbros]

Sideboarding Guide here

The default plan against hate-heavy decks (read: all blue decks) is to take out the graveyard stuff as much as possible and bring in the lands combo.

I saw this before, but wasn't sure if that's what you were still following.  Also oath, and other combo control decks for that matter don't really fall into any of these categories.

Remove all of:
-Dread Return
-Ichorid
-Golgari Grave-Troll
-Bridge from Below

I've been playing with a sideboard transform for over 2 years now, and I haven't really found this to be the best approach against all decks.  Against fair decks this approach definitely works, but against the combo control decks its not as easy.  Especially now that I have moved to force of will and the 4 mental missteps that you are playing as well.  When they don't resolve their grave hate its hard to "go off" when you have 0 bridges, 0 dread returns, and reduced dredgers.  I've just been struggling to find the sweet spot for number of dredgers, bridges, returns that are necessary to keep the dredge plan alive against broken decks, and was wondering if you had any better luck with this.

Post-board, the only graveyard cards you have are:
-Cabal Therapy (can be cast and often flashed back)
-Narcomoeba (pitches to Force)
-Golgari Thug (1/1 body, also can recur Hexmage sometimes)
-Stinkweed Imp (1/2 flying Deathtouch can stall out a lot of aggro decks)
-Chancellor of the Annex (opening-hand effect)

Golgari Thug is pretty awful against almost every deck.  Don't forget that his dies clause is also NOT optional, which can basically cause you to lose a card.  I've found Dakmor Salvage, and Darkblast to be much better, these don't help feed your Ichorid, but Ichorid was always a card that excelled in game 2/3's I'm not sure he's good enough when dredge is only plan A for game 1.

4 Chancellor's post-board seems like overkill as its opening hand effect is largely negligible in games 2/3 when you can't combo quickly.

[ajfirecracker]

Oath I usually make the switch. I've found that Oath decks online rely on mulligans for Leyline more than they really should, and this creates precisely the conditions where the switch is most effective. You don't have to make any creatures post-board until you kill them at psuedo-instant speed, which means they have to assemble and resolve both halves of their combo before you get yours. You're mostly racing and can therefore spend counters on any high-value target, Oath itself being one of the juiciest. Typically post-board games are pretty even, maybe slightly in favor of Oath, but I think the matchup is extremely solid overall due to a high game 1 win percentage. As long as your graveyard mechanics are practiced vs Oath (i.e. you don't auto-reanimate any Narcos or Ichorids, you can use Cabal Therapy to clear their first token, etc) I think the match is very winnable.

As the decks get slower I tend to be more likely to make the switch to lands combo. For very fast combo decks, they typically can't afford the hate as they have to focus a lot of cards on their traditional problems like counter-heavy decks or Shops. As the decks get slower and more resilient, I think it becomes a much better deal to switch. You have time for cards like Library of Alexandria/Bazaar of Baghdad to function and you really just want to put them on a short clock while throwing 2-3 counterspells their way. The match is more like a tempo matchup than anything, where you have a limited window to attack with cheap creatures. Eventually a TPS-style deck will overwhelm your counters, but the nice thing is Mindbreak Trap and the card-drawing lands can extend that window a bit.

I've found that I can play quite a controlling role post-board, using the combo as a finisher and using Bazaar for virtual card advantage or Library for actual card advantage. Sometimes you can counter every relevant spell for 4-7 turns and combo in a mid- to- late-game sort of time frame.

I often find that I bring in the combo for the graveyard stuff, basically going whole hog on the switch in many matchups. The biggest thing in most matchups is my mentality - sometimes I'm a tempo deck post-board, sometimes I'm fairly hard control, and of course sometimes it's purely a race and you just want to throw the Marit Lage combo at them as quickly as possible.

Good role assignment is critical, in my opinion. A clear understanding of your role in the matchup will allow you to understand how aggressively to use Bazaar, how to sequence your lands, and what to counter. Of course, it will also contribute to an understanding of how to sideboard game 3 (when you have a better idea what their hate is) including whether to use Dredge, Depths, or to blend the two.

I'm only running Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Thug as Ichorid food, so I can't really afford to cut one of those. At 8 I get scared sometimes but don't really lose games to a lack of food while at 4 I would run into that problem an order of magnitude more frequently.

Also, I highly recommend Mindbreak Trap if you're not running it. It's insanely powerful in some matchups, and can be discarded/pitched to Force/sideboarded in others. Typically if the opponent has cantrips I find it's worth keeping in, so it's mostly the non-blue aggro decks that I take it out. Merfolk I also typically take it out (although it can punish Cavern of Souls a little, it's not really worth it). This extra space lets you use both the graveyard plan and the depths plan simultaneously post-board, so you can change what you're doing mid-mulligan or mid-game.

[vaughnbros]

@ajfirecracker.  Thank you for the in depth response.

I'm not sure relying on my opponent being a bad oath player is really something that I want to rely on.

I agree about assuming the control role often.  That's why I love darkblast.  It gives the deck a 1 mana removal spell for games 2/3, its also recurrable against certain graveyard hate which makes it even better.

I think the role assessment in each match up only determines what you should be boarding.  Within a particular game I think role assessment should be made based on what is in your opening hand, and of course whether they resolve a GY hate piece.  I'd say a majority of my opening hands game 2/3 are perfectly capable of playing the control, dredge, or aggro plan with the opportunity to switch mid game as well.

As for reasons why I'm not playing Ichorid:
1. I'd have to play golgari thug over darkblast/dakmor salvage
2. He only really improves the game 1 match up against workshops.
3. He's terrible game 2/3's, basically a really bad ball lightning.

I'm currently on ancestral recall, and 4 laboratory maniacs to bring my blue count up to 17.  I'm hesitant on mindbreak trap for reasons you've brought up.  It's not really worth keeping in against most decks, and really only marginal against a number of others.  Laboratory Maniac gives me a strong win con in the main deck (not needing to pass turn or attack), and post board with divining witch/doomsday/aggro plan.

[ajfirecracker]

I don't rely on Oath players being bad, I punish them for choosing Oath (and thereby locking themselves out of Grafdigger's Cage). As a consequence, they either have one-shot hate which you can potentially play through, or Leyline which you can avoid. Their reliance on Leyline is simply a data point that enables smarter sideboarding, not a criticism of their mulligan strategy.

I've found the blue cantrip-heavy decks to be extremely prevalent and as a consequence have found Mindbreak Trap invaluable. It's certainly not correct in every metagame. If there are enough Shops in your area, for example, you probably want something else.

I'm familiar with the Divining Witch plan and don't really like what it does to the maindeck in terms of consistency. Do you have a list?

[vaughnbros]

Their reliance on Leyline is simply a data point that enables smarter sideboarding, not a criticism of their mulligan strategy.

I'm not so sure about this.  Yes they are reliant on Leyline as their only grave-hate, but without dread return we can't use the dredge plan against the card Oath of Druids, not just graveyard hate, which is why I was asking about partial sideboarding.

I'm familiar with the Divining Witch plan and don't really like what it does to the maindeck in terms of consistency. Do you have a list?

Really?  I always felt like my divining witch builds had some of the most consistent main decks of any dredge list.  Here's what I'm on right now for a main deck:

4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bridge from Below

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Darkblast
3 Dakmor Salvage

3 Dread Return
4 Laboratory Maniac
1 Griselbrand
1 Sun Titan

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

And my corresponding sideboard:
SB: 2 Cavern of Souls
SB: 4 Divining Witch
SB: 4 Doomsday
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 4 Underground Sea

You could certainly change the sideboard to play Dark Depths over doomsdays of course.

Some earlier iterations and tournament reports: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45541.0

[vaughnbros]

I played the above list yesterday losing in the top 8 after going 5-1 in the Swiss.  Overall the deck was incredible.  Both of my match losses can be attributed to misplays and misplaces.   In both of them I went to 3 games against homebrews, mono white running 7 main deck hate pieces and a RUG control list with punishing fire.  Most of my games were won by forcing/missteping hate and then dredging, but I also won 1 off the witch combo and 1 off doomsday.  I went 4-0 in games against two glass cannon decks, charbelcher and turbovault so I didn't see much need for mindbreak trap.

[MisterFoote]

I've only recently started playing dredge.  I have played against this deck online.  It's not good.

[vaughnbros]

I've only recently started playing dredge.  I have played against this deck online.  It's not good.

The dark depths version?  The version posted here could be tuned, but the transformation plan definitely works.  Just went 6-2 for a top 8 in a 62 man event this last weekend, and I've top 8'ed something like 5 of my last 6 tournaments I've played it in.  It has a fairly high learning curve though.  You definitely need to be completely comfortable with dredge game 1 in every match up.  In addition you have to learn how to sideboard and play awkward game 2/3's.

[MisterFoote]

I've only recently started playing dredge.  I have played against this deck online.  It's not good.

The dark depths version?  The version posted here could be tuned, but the transformation plan definitely works.  Just went 6-2 for a top 8 in a 62 man event this last weekend, and I've top 8'ed something like 5 of my last 6 tournaments I've played it in.  It has a fairly high learning curve though.  You definitely need to be completely comfortable with dredge game 1 in every match up.  In addition you have to learn how to sideboard and play awkward game 2/3's.

It has rogue value.  Once you learn the match its not hard to stop.  But obviously dredge is in the top 2 in terms of power level in the format.  It will do well with most if its variants.

[vaughnbros]

I've only recently started playing dredge.  I have played against this deck online.  It's not good.

The dark depths version?  The version posted here could be tuned, but the transformation plan definitely works.  Just went 6-2 for a top 8 in a 62 man event this last weekend, and I've top 8'ed something like 5 of my last 6 tournaments I've played it in.  It has a fairly high learning curve though.  You definitely need to be completely comfortable with dredge game 1 in every match up.  In addition you have to learn how to sideboard and play awkward game 2/3's.

It has rogue value.  Once you learn the match its not hard to stop.  But obviously dredge is in the top 2 in terms of power level in the format.  It will do well with most if its variants.

Disagree.  Dredge in general top 2 in power level?  Most of my opponents know close to my entire 75 I'm on and how to play against me before I even sit down.  The deck has a lot of raw power and is extremly far from "not good".  If you are having different results it's likely you need to adjust how you are playing it.

[MisterFoote]

I've only recently started playing dredge.  I have played against this deck online.  It's not good.

The dark depths version?  The version posted here could be tuned, but the transformation plan definitely works.  Just went 6-2 for a top 8 in a 62 man event this last weekend, and I've top 8'ed something like 5 of my last 6 tournaments I've played it in.  It has a fairly high learning curve though.  You definitely need to be completely comfortable with dredge game 1 in every match up.  In addition you have to learn how to sideboard and play awkward game 2/3's.

It has rogue value.  Once you learn the match its not hard to stop.  But obviously dredge is in the top 2 in terms of power level in the format.  It will do well with most if its variants.

Disagree.  Dredge in general top 2 in power level?  Most of my opponents know close to my entire 75 I'm on and how to play against me before I even sit down.  The deck has a lot of raw power and is extremly far from "not good".  If you are having different results it's likely you need to adjust how you are playing it.

You misunderstood.  I dont play this list because I think its bad.  I have no trouble beating it with other lists.  Its more cute than good.  But don't let my opinion stop you from smashing face with it.  You are clearly doing well with it. 

In terms of power level. Yes.  Dredge and workshops are the most powerful decks in the format.  You simply cannot disagree with that.  Sideboards are composed primarily for those matchups.  Assuming you are not piloting one of the two.

[vaughnbros]

I misunderstood?  I think you've made yourself perfectly clear.  I'm telling you that you are inaccurate in calling it bad.  There is nothing "cute" about it either.  Cute implies it's just trying to have fun.  The deck wins its all its ever done from the first time I sleeved it up.  I don't really see what the point of your post was other than to try and bait me or someone else.   Thanks for your insightful opinion of this deck is "bad" because I tried it once and did poorly.

[MisterFoote]

I misunderstood?  I think you've made yourself perfectly clear.  I'm telling you that you are inaccurate in calling it bad.  There is nothing "cute" about it either.  Cute implies it's just trying to have fun.  The deck wins its all its ever done from the first time I sleeved it up.  I don't really see what the point of your post was other than to try and bait me or someone else.   Thanks for your insightful opinion of this deck is "bad" because I tried it once and did poorly.

Thats a little dramatic.  We clearly have different opinions on the list.  Again, you clearly misunderstood as Ive stated twice that I would not even sleeve it up, and how that is my opinion. 

[vaughnbros]

I misunderstood?  I think you've made yourself perfectly clear.  I'm telling you that you are inaccurate in calling it bad.  There is nothing "cute" about it either.  Cute implies it's just trying to have fun.  The deck wins its all its ever done from the first time I sleeved it up.  I don't really see what the point of your post was other than to try and bait me or someone else.   Thanks for your insightful opinion of this deck is "bad" because I tried it once and did poorly.

Thats a little dramatic.  We clearly have different opinions on the list.  Again, you clearly misunderstood as Ive stated twice that I would not even sleeve it up, and how that is my opinion. 

Why are you posting in this forum?

[MisterFoote]

I misunderstood?  I think you've made yourself perfectly clear.  I'm telling you that you are inaccurate in calling it bad.  There is nothing "cute" about it either.  Cute implies it's just trying to have fun.  The deck wins its all its ever done from the first time I sleeved it up.  I don't really see what the point of your post was other than to try and bait me or someone else.   Thanks for your insightful opinion of this deck is "bad" because I tried it once and did poorly.

Thats a little dramatic.  We clearly have different opinions on the list.  Again, you clearly misunderstood as Ive stated twice that I would not even sleeve it up, and how that is my opinion. 

Why are you posting in this forum?

Am I not allowed?

[nedleeds]

Why are you posting in this forum?

Am I not allowed?

You are just leaving a flaming bag with no insight or thought as to why that particular build of dredge is "bad" or "cute".

Try posting something like

In my opinion the depths sideboard is a poor choice because when I play it vs. <insert some actual deck> I find that the <point out some strategy or specific cards> doesn't really work as my opponent normally kept <insert cards> in their deck anyway. However vs. <a deck> I am finding the plan is strong, the reason being <insert some insight beyond 'cute' and 'bad'>.

[MisterFoote]

Why are you posting in this forum?

Am I not allowed?

You are just leaving a flaming bag with no insight or thought as to why that particular build of dredge is "bad" or "cute".

Try posting something like

In my opinion the depths sideboard is a poor choice because when I play it vs. <insert some actual deck> I find that the <point out some strategy or specific cards> doesn't really work as my opponent normally kept <insert cards> in their deck anyway. However vs. <a deck> I am finding the plan is strong, the reason being <insert some insight beyond 'cute' and 'bad'>.

I clearly described my opinion of the deck.  It is both bad and cute.  It performs well based on the fact it is a spin off one of the strongest decks in the format.  Im a minimalist.  Sorry if that doesnt appease your need.  I guess we'll have to wait for some results!

[msg67183]

Why are you posting in this forum?

Am I not allowed?

You are just leaving a flaming bag with no insight or thought as to why that particular build of dredge is "bad" or "cute".

Try posting something like

In my opinion the depths sideboard is a poor choice because when I play it vs. <insert some actual deck> I find that the <point out some strategy or specific cards> doesn't really work as my opponent normally kept <insert cards> in their deck anyway. However vs. <a deck> I am finding the plan is strong, the reason being <insert some insight beyond 'cute' and 'bad'>.

I clearly described my opinion of the deck.  It is both bad and cute.  It performs well based on the fact it is a spin off one of the strongest decks in the format.  Im a minimalist.  Sorry if that doesnt appease your need.  I guess we'll have to wait for some results!

Wait for some results? Lance has won events with this deck since he started playing it, as well as multiple top 8s. Tom Dixon also played the deck and top 8d as well. It seems to me that you just don't approve of innovation, or at least the work that Lance has put into Dr. Edge's Laboratory.

[Hrishi]

Why are you posting in this forum?

Am I not allowed?

You are just leaving a flaming bag with no insight or thought as to why that particular build of dredge is "bad" or "cute".

Try posting something like

In my opinion the depths sideboard is a poor choice because when I play it vs. <insert some actual deck> I find that the <point out some strategy or specific cards> doesn't really work as my opponent normally kept <insert cards> in their deck anyway. However vs. <a deck> I am finding the plan is strong, the reason being <insert some insight beyond 'cute' and 'bad'>.

I clearly described my opinion of the deck.  It is both bad and cute.  It performs well based on the fact it is a spin off one of the strongest decks in the format.  Im a minimalist.  Sorry if that doesnt appease your need.  I guess we'll have to wait for some results!

I feel like I am just needlessly feeding the troll, but anyway...

http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Vintage&aname=&main=Bazaar+of+Baghdad&nomain=&side=Divining+Witch&noside=&strict=on

[MisterFoote]

I didnt realize not participating in a circle jerk was trolling.  I simply disagreed.  Apparently that is also disrepecting innovation and accomplishment.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  Its dramatic and unecessary.  I am done here.