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Author Topic: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage  (Read 30901 times)
Norm4eva
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« Reply #210 on: October 30, 2014, 05:32:31 pm »

Make them the property of WoTC. Require your DCI card at entry, whcih gets scanned into a database along with barcodes on the cards themselves. Requre surrender of the card at exit in order to leave.

For that matter, the new card border is apparently much more scanner-friendly than the old ones (in that, you *can* actually use one with them), so there could be something to that. You register and have a decklist associated to your DCI number; the TO scans your requested proxy list, doles them out to you, and then you sleeve up and play. On exit, return all proxies to front desk. If you don't return the same ones you borrowed, some frightful consequence as deemed fit by the TO, who answers to Wizards if they lose too many cards per season. Or something.

It's certainly one possibility in the realm of possible possibilities, isn't it. Sounds a bit convoluted, especially if the cards come with some kind of arbitrary expiration date, but it would be a way to try and keep the cards out of circulation.

I think you're worried too much about nice proxies being out there. The intent is that this is done for only one event, and has something like you suggested on it being "For Use Only During GP ____". As for it being a nice proxy, we already have Collector's Edition prints and World Championship decks printed in the past that basically functioned in very much the same manner. I don't really see the issue of having a nice looking proxy versus any other proxy if the events are mostly proxy events anyway as it stands now, it's only an issue if events started running that said you could use this "hero" power to not count towards your proxy limit, and Wizards can easily tell people to cut that out.

So let's look at it this way:

Pros:
- Can allow a GP, PT, or other large event to happen.
- Produce cool collectable cards that have no value based on play.
- Doesn't break the Reserved List.

Cons:
- People get slightly nicer proxies to replace their random proxies that their already using if they wish?


I'm just not seeing the issue of introducing potential proxies into events that allow proxies already.

It's not even my concern I'm voicing, I'd just as soon see the RP dissolved and Moxen fall from the sky like Scott Baio's career.

Look, the Reprint Policy says that WotC cannot print functionally identical, tournament-legal cards. In order to print another piece of Power, it has to be categorically unplayable or digital. Oversized cards, for example -- they could print endless oversized Timetwisters if they felt the need. I'm guessing that the rules-lawyers who scuzzed their way into the 2011 talks that re-upped the Reprint Policy would take action even if the card is somehow a single-serving product. More than that, though -- consider that a system which could dole out official tourney-proxies that occasionally bleeds copies into the hands of the public is exactly the same problem, as it is functionally identical to simply printing new versions of the same cards. After all, the tourney-proxies could be sold at a much lower price than the Beta versions of the same; they aren't legal anymore, right? So you use your "burnt" proxies for everything but the occasional sanctioned event, where you just refill your tourney proxies and carry on.

I mean really understand, I'd *loooove* to see a way around it, but I also know that people suck and lawyers are often paid to sound righter than they actually are, and that all it would take is for someone somewhere to prove that single-use tournament proxies that leak out into the public are precisely as bad as just printing new reserved cards, and the whole deal would be pooched.
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« Reply #211 on: October 30, 2014, 05:51:34 pm »

More than that, though -- consider that a system which could dole out official tourney-proxies that occasionally bleeds copies into the hands of the public is exactly the same problem, as it is functionally identical to simply printing new versions of the same cards.
It's not, because they're not tournament playable. They're useless once they leave that one specific event, except as tokens or novelty items, making them advertisement cards, or like those Innistrad flip tokens which can't be used without owning the actual card, except they don't have that function either.

After all, the tourney-proxies could be sold at a much lower price than the Beta versions of the same; they aren't legal anymore, right? So you use your "burnt" proxies for everything but the occasional sanctioned event, where you just refill your tourney proxies and carry on.

I don't see the problem with the original part of this, I can just as easily alter a card or even print one out currently and use it as a proxy. I can also buy a CE edition piece of power for much cheaper than real power and use it as an amazingly high quality proxy.

Additionally this is for one event, so even if they ever do another one like it the ones you got wouldn't be usable as they were from a different event. I'm not advocating this to be a regular thing, just a one shot big celebration type of thing.

Quote
Start small and legalize IC/CE see if that in anyway satiates demand (hint it probably won't). Then proceed from there, if WotC isn't willing to legalize their own Carti Mundi printed moxes and lotuses for eternal play then nothing else is going to happen.
Wow, that's completely different, as that would mean IC/CE would be identical to real power in usage, whereas this would be a one shot event that has supplementary hero/token/etc cars provided for use in only that event and they become pretty pieces of advert paper once the event ends.
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« Reply #212 on: October 30, 2014, 07:23:06 pm »

More than that, though -- consider that a system which could dole out official tourney-proxies that occasionally bleeds copies into the hands of the public is exactly the same problem, as it is functionally identical to simply printing new versions of the same cards.
It's not, because they're not tournament playable. They're useless once they leave that one specific event, except as tokens or novelty items, making them advertisement cards, or like those Innistrad flip tokens which can't be used without owning the actual card, except they don't have that function either.

After all, the tourney-proxies could be sold at a much lower price than the Beta versions of the same; they aren't legal anymore, right? So you use your "burnt" proxies for everything but the occasional sanctioned event, where you just refill your tourney proxies and carry on.

I don't see the problem with the original part of this, I can just as easily alter a card or even print one out currently and use it as a proxy. I can also buy a CE edition piece of power for much cheaper than real power and use it as an amazingly high quality proxy.

Additionally this is for one event, so even if they ever do another one like it the ones you got wouldn't be usable as they were from a different event. I'm not advocating this to be a regular thing, just a one shot big celebration type of thing.

Quote
Start small and legalize IC/CE see if that in anyway satiates demand (hint it probably won't). Then proceed from there, if WotC isn't willing to legalize their own Carti Mundi printed moxes and lotuses for eternal play then nothing else is going to happen.
Wow, that's completely different, as that would mean IC/CE would be identical to real power in usage, whereas this would be a one shot event that has supplementary hero/token/etc cars provided for use in only that event and they become pretty pieces of advert paper once the event ends.

Both the suggestions that you put forward:  limited-use proxies and legalizing IC/CE - are fantastic ideas and I'm totally in support of them.

I don't get the detractors on the limited-use proxy argument.  They don't have to be picture-perfect replicas of the Power Nine, there need not be any issues with people taking them home.  Just print Checklist cards like you had back in Innistrad, players get like a dozen when they walk in the door.  The checklist can include the P9, Workshop, Bazaar, I dunno.  Seems totally fine.
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« Reply #213 on: November 03, 2014, 09:17:21 am »

Hey, if any of the above actually becomes a real thing I'll be stoked. I mean, in a general way, not specifically, since Vintage tournaments currently require slightly more travel than I'm able to put in (maybe once the baby is older I can reconsider). I don't mean to be a Negative Norm or anything, just a bit sour from all the fail that's come along with the RP.
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« Reply #214 on: November 03, 2014, 10:41:30 am »

I'm in favor of the checklist style card, with a write in box for any card you want it to be.  It doesn't have to be limited to power cards, when things like Tabernacle and Moat are equally rare.  Heck, give the people access to dual lands too. 
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« Reply #215 on: November 03, 2014, 10:52:56 am »

Quote
Quote
Start small and legalize IC/CE see if that in anyway satiates demand (hint it probably won't). Then proceed from there, if WotC isn't willing to legalize their own Carti Mundi printed moxes and lotuses for eternal play then nothing else is going to happen.
Wow, that's completely different, as that would mean IC/CE would be identical to real power in usage, whereas this would be a one shot event that has supplementary hero/token/etc cars provided for use in only that event and they become pretty pieces of advert paper once the event ends.


Both the suggestions that you put forward:  limited-use proxies and legalizing IC/CE - are fantastic ideas and I'm totally in support of them.

I don't get the detractors on the limited-use proxy argument.  They don't have to be picture-perfect replicas of the Power Nine, there need not be any issues with people taking them home.  Just print Checklist cards like you had back in Innistrad, players get like a dozen when they walk in the door.  The checklist can include the P9, Workshop, Bazaar, I dunno.  Seems totally fine.

I wasn't always in favor of allowing CE/IE/GB in eternal but then they went and printed event legal cards without Magic backs. I can't think of any rational reason why IE/CE shouldn't be legal in a world where Huntmaster of the Fells is. They are both subject to the marked cards rules. If a judge can discern your Huntmaster / CE Jump then you will get a loss / DQ.
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« Reply #216 on: November 03, 2014, 02:11:19 pm »

The various suggestions regarding limited-use proxies speak to something that I don't think gets enough attention with regard to the spirit of the Reserved List:

The letter of the policy makes no mention of the value of cards, it is simply the spirit of the thing that it was inspired, maintained and enforced with secondary market valuation as the primary concern.  The policy is very clear (increasingly so) as to the scope of cards that are disallowed for reprinting. (See the "foil loophole" as an example.)

However: the policy has no indications or promises of maintaining what truly defines a tournament legal Magic card. 

If Black Lotus were banned in Vintage, tomorrow, would that be a violation of the spirit of the list?  Such an action would clearly impact the value of Black Lotus, but it would also clearly not violate any discreet tenants of the policy. What if Conspiracies were made legal and a new Conspiracy was printed that had the same effect as Chalice of the Void where X=0 or Null Rod?  (Obviously this is silly, but it's for demonstration purposes.)  Such a Conspiracy would be wildly powerful and popular in Vintage, and would allow for strategies/decks/players from Legacy and/or Modern to compete on a nearly level playing field with many current Vintage decks.  If Moxen/Lotus became nearly non-functional in such a scenario, their price would likely drop.  Would class-action suits arise then?

My examples are absurd, but they are the logical extreme of my point: (re)printing cards is the only scope of the Reserved List, but cards' legality, effectiveness and value are influenced by many, many factors that the policy does not govern. WotC can (and is) pull(ing) levers to influence these cards every day.  It's just that none of them is the one labeled "Reprint".

It is entirely possible that the cardboard underpinnings of Magic will disappear within the next 10-20 years.  With the advent of smart-paper and e-ink (forgive me), the old, "dumb" Magic cards could easily be replaced with a product that literally connects one's MTGO collection with a physical interface meant for IRL tournaments.  If/When such a product is introduced: is it a violation of the Reserved List to allow someone to "play" with their MTGO Lotus in a physical event?

Between now and then, I would not be surprised if there were an interim step that merged one's MTGO collection with the ability to play in cardboard tournaments. It would require a serious effort to implement (as you have all already addressed) but I don't believe any of the obstacles are insurmountable.
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« Reply #217 on: November 03, 2014, 05:08:41 pm »

As much as we would all like to see proxies or reprints, I used to think it was folly because of the simple fact that wizards does not make money off vintage players.

However, with mtgo, i think that changes a little. Granted, once you buy your power 20, you will likely only buy the occasional cards here and there, but with your power 20, online play makes it a lot more fun to test multiple decks. Easily. 

I don't see any issue with people upgrading their plains lotus to a proxy lotus. That doesn't hurt anyone.

I do see an issue with tumbling power nine prices, but not sure they would change that much. Unlimited power nine have been pretty constant in price over the years. If they released some really ugly white border moxes, I still think there would be plenty of aftermarket demand for original power. And if the resellers can look past their own short term losses, they could pick up a whole new demographic. There is a lot more money to be made in flipping hundreds of $50 moxes, than flipping the occasional beta mox. Most vintage players eventually try to pimp out their deck.  Brining in thousands of new vintage players can only help the retailers.

And if that's not enough, how about the on site vendors are the ones that can be the official sellers of "gp Barcelona proxies." Or for every case a retailer buys, they get a set of proxies to sell in advance of said GP.

Proxies are only legal for the specified event (creating a new revenue stream).  They could do alternative artwork each time, which creates collectibility. And resellers now have a new card to resell to casual players.  People might buy multiple sets for different decks, cubes, etc. and others will still continue to pimp their deck with beta.  Best of all, it might ward off the inevitability of good counterfeits.  And on top of that, proxy tournaments become better, because nobody has sharpie cards anymore.


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« Reply #218 on: November 03, 2014, 05:27:50 pm »

Quote
As much as we would all like to see proxies or reprints, I used to think it was folly because of the simple fact that wizards does not make money off vintage players.

However, with mtgo, i think that changes a little. Granted, once you buy your power 20, you will likely only buy the occasional cards here and there, but with your power 20, online play makes it a lot more fun to test multiple decks. Easily. 

I really never liked this argument, as it implies that once someone picks up Vintage they just stop playing everything else and only play Vintage. Sure, there are people who only play Vintage, but they generally wouldn't play other formats regardless. Then there are other folks like me, who only play Vintage when it comes to constructed but enjoy things like draft and sealed, so it's not like being a Vintage player means I'm not buying new product, I'm probably buying more product than most people as I draft a lot, I just trade it away or sell it for Vintage stuff later or it sits in a box somewhere until I do.

Some people just enjoy playing magic, they won't play less magic, they'll just play more with Vintage being another format in their list.

Quote
I do see an issue with tumbling power nine prices, but not sure they would change that much. Unlimited power nine have been pretty constant in price over the years. If they released some really ugly white border moxes, I still think there would be plenty of aftermarket demand for original power. And if the resellers can look past their own short term losses, they could pick up a whole new demographic. There is a lot more money to be made in flipping hundreds of $50 moxes, than flipping the occasional beta mox. Most vintage players eventually try to pimp out their deck.  Brining in thousands of new vintage players can only help the retailers.
This is another thing I don't really see happening. Let's face it, Power essentially has value as a collector's item more than a play item, since most events are proxy based and those that aren't are reasonably rare. We've seen cards like this get reprinted before, such as The One Eyed, Overwhelming Forces, and something like Recruiter, their original versions all retained their higher price tag, despite the new version being predominantly cheap. Something like Tarmogoyf didn't go down much either after it got reprinted and now boasts and even higher price tag than before.

I'm just saying, it's really hard to eliminate the value of cards that are twenty years of age now and posses an amazing historical value. Even if the reprints of Moxen were 50$ I doubt the old ones would drop much, white boarder or not, and if anything if a demand is created for them by having non-proxy events become the norm and increase in participation, they'd probably go up as they're the only way to get them with the old frame and such.
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« Reply #219 on: November 03, 2014, 06:41:48 pm »

Well "letter vs spirit" arguments concerning the RP have typically gone the route of the "can't effect" since 2011, per the Golden Rule of Magic. Take the case of Reverberate; it isn't Fork, but by golly, it's awfully close to it. There's been talk around the Fork vs. Reverberate kerfuffle for a while now, so I won't dredge it up, but the FSV is "we printed Reverberate, people whined -- so we won't make that mistake again".

And sadly I feel like the lack of definition regarding tournament-legal is exactly what makes a single-use card or "official stand-in" card seem less and less likely. I mean compare it to Standard; shocklands aren't currently legal in Standard, right? Any card that comes into Standard is going to be illegal, eventually, unless it is reprinted. Temporary legality of Magic cards is a fact of their existence; the RP mentions nothing about duration, and that could either be a boon or a bust for someone arguing for any product Wizards has to actually print and distribute that stands in for Power.

Even checklist cards, at present, require that the player actually own as many copies of the card as they have checklist cards in their deck. Checklist cards are not proxies. It would be a lot cooler if they were, but as I write this, they aren't. That doesn't mean that cannot change, and if it were going to happen in any way, shape or form, that would probably be it. It just couldn't happen without a fundamental change to what checklist cards actually represent.

....again, blah blah blah, not saying i don't want it just saying there are a slew of things that pre-empt it being quite difficult to ever see a card come from WotC that represent any of the RP cards. Ambiguous wording isn't anyone's ally in these situations.
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« Reply #220 on: November 03, 2014, 06:50:37 pm »

I said this earlier, but it bears repeating. 

The reserve list exists.  Wizards of the Coast used it as a marketing tool to keep the game going early on.  If they ever chose to abandon it, it would be a clear case of false advertising.  Anyone who made financial decisions based on their marketing would have a right to sue them.  The larger the number of plaintiffs in a case, the more likely it is to be ruled against them. 

There is also no evidence that reprinting power would draw more people into Magic as a whole.  Wizards makes money under the current regime.  If they all of a sudden printed the power 9 again, only to never reprint it again, it might not have the "implied" effect that many people think it would have.  If two years ago you could buy power, but now all of a sudden, you are only given a choice to buy Theros block cards, do you think that trash would sell at all? 

I mean this seriously, do you think Theros would sell at all if you could go buy packs with power?

No. 

So in conclusion, the reserve list 1)is a marketing tool Wizards has relied on and changing it would be false advertising, which opens them up to lawsuits by anyone materially affected by the decision and 2) it would not increase sales as an aggregate in a perpetuity.  Everything would use it for a basis, and all of a sudden sets like Khans of Tarkir would be the equivalent of Homelands.  They wouldn't sell anything else in the future. 

The reserve lists stays.  Like it, love it, hate it, I don't care what your opinion of it is.  Live with it.  It is a fact of life. 
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« Reply #221 on: November 03, 2014, 07:42:51 pm »

Wizards of the Coast blatantly and publicly lied about when the VMA drafts would end on MODO. Therefore, I have no reason to believe that they would be truthful about the Reserve List or anything else. I have no idea whether the Reserve List will remain, but the fact that they lied about VMA drafts ending is proof that they as a company are willing to go back on what they have said. I think that this is worth keeping in mind if you ever think that Wizards won't go back on their word regarding the reserve list.
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« Reply #222 on: November 03, 2014, 11:11:41 pm »

So a question in regards to the Reserved List, what's the statute of limitations on a promise made such as this? I feel like there have been enough years, or there will soon be enough years to to break this "promise" without having any legal recourse, if there was any to begin with.

Additionally Wizards have gone back on the Reserved List in the past. Many of us know the foil promo loophole that existed for a while and was recently closed, but there was a time where they did a vote to take off various cards, which allowed them to print Clone in Onslaught and a couple of other cards. They also removed a massive amount of cards at another point as the cards weren't rare or something, as far as I remember. So it's not like there isn't precedence for the Reserved List being violated quite heavily by Wizards on multiple occasion.

I mean it's an antiquated thing, that is reaching legal drinking age in the USA, so I can't imagine it's legal standing is anything great. 
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« Reply #223 on: November 04, 2014, 12:15:27 am »

Wizards of the Coast blatantly and publicly lied about when the VMA drafts would end on MODO. Therefore, I have no reason to believe that they would be truthful about the Reserve List or anything else. I have no idea whether the Reserve List will remain, but the fact that they lied about VMA drafts ending is proof that they as a company are willing to go back on what they have said. I think that this is worth keeping in mind if you ever think that Wizards won't go back on their word regarding the reserve list.

I am fairly certain you are referring to the VMA drafts will be done in a couple day, never mind they will last until Khans comes out debacle. If this is correct, I don't think this a fair comparison due to the fact that the powers that be at WoTC changed their minds because a significant portion of the player base felt it was they that were getting lied to, because many people were operating under the understanding that drafts would be live as long as Vintage Masters was available for sale in the online store. While I do understand that many people (I believe including you) bought in during the spike in prices due to the pending end of drafts, WoTC was in the uneviable situation of being perceived as lying no matter what they chose to do. 

They don't have the "luxury" of having a terribly worded announcement to fall back on to reverse their position. The reserved list is a long standing policy, which with the closing of the foil loophole, is pretty easily understood.
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« Reply #224 on: November 04, 2014, 10:02:21 am »

Wizards of the Coast blatantly and publicly lied about when the VMA drafts would end on MODO. Therefore, I have no reason to believe that they would be truthful about the Reserve List or anything else. I have no idea whether the Reserve List will remain, but the fact that they lied about VMA drafts ending is proof that they as a company are willing to go back on what they have said. I think that this is worth keeping in mind if you ever think that Wizards won't go back on their word regarding the reserve list.

I am fairly certain you are referring to the VMA drafts will be done in a couple day, never mind they will last until Khans comes out debacle. If this is correct, I don't think this a fair comparison due to the fact that the powers that be at WoTC changed their minds because a significant portion of the player base felt it was they that were getting lied to, because many people were operating under the understanding that drafts would be live as long as Vintage Masters was available for sale in the online store. While I do understand that many people (I believe including you) bought in during the spike in prices due to the pending end of drafts, WoTC was in the uneviable situation of being perceived as lying no matter what they chose to do. 

They don't have the "luxury" of having a terribly worded announcement to fall back on to reverse their position. The reserved list is a long standing policy, which with the closing of the foil loophole, is pretty easily understood.

When VMA was released, Wizards said that the set itself would be available until Khans. There was no mention of how long you could draft it for. Then, when Wizards announced on the official Magic website that VMA drafting would stop, that was the first time they had announced when the drafts themselves would end. Finally, when they announced a turnabout in the draft-stopping date, that was when they first went against what they had said they would do.

It is worth noting that Power prices haven't actually reached what they were during the spike after the untrue announcement. I suspect that this is at least in part because buying into MODO power requires a certain amount of faith and trust in Wizards. That incident really does show a huge breach in their customer's trust, and shows how little their word is worth.
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« Reply #225 on: November 04, 2014, 10:28:08 am »

Additionally Wizards have gone back on the Reserved List in the past. Many of us know the foil promo loophole that existed for a while and was recently closed, but there was a time where they did a vote to take off various cards, which allowed them to print Clone in Onslaught and a couple of other cards. They also removed a massive amount of cards at another point as the cards weren't rare or something, as far as I remember. So it's not like there isn't precedence for the Reserved List being violated quite heavily by Wizards on multiple occasion.

I mean it's an antiquated thing, that is reaching legal drinking age in the USA, so I can't imagine it's legal standing is anything great. 

Those all happened a while ago.  Wizards has not messed with the Reserved List for quite a few years.  They have no reason to, since Magic is doing well, and they get the vast majority of their money from casual and Type 2 players.  Why risk killing the golden goose in order to please 1% of their players?  It would be incredibly stupid and short-sighted.
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« Reply #226 on: November 04, 2014, 10:48:53 am »

Additionally Wizards have gone back on the Reserved List in the past. Many of us know the foil promo loophole that existed for a while and was recently closed, but there was a time where they did a vote to take off various cards, which allowed them to print Clone in Onslaught and a couple of other cards. They also removed a massive amount of cards at another point as the cards weren't rare or something, as far as I remember. So it's not like there isn't precedence for the Reserved List being violated quite heavily by Wizards on multiple occasion.

I mean it's an antiquated thing, that is reaching legal drinking age in the USA, so I can't imagine it's legal standing is anything great.  

Those all happened a while ago.  Wizards has not messed with the Reserved List for quite a few years.  They have no reason to, since Magic is doing well, and they get the vast majority of their money from casual and Type 2 players.  Why risk killing the golden goose in order to please 1% of their players?  It would be incredibly stupid and short-sighted.

Additionally, wotc royally messed up with their one opportunity to experiment with how large scale reprinting of reserved list cards and increased availability for eternal formats would affect player behavior and sentiment.  The decided to release Vintage Masters at the same time as a major software overhaul leaving them with no reliable way to isolate the impacts of each.  If they were even remotely considering a change in paper, they would have taken that opportunity more seriously.
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« Reply #227 on: January 19, 2015, 05:52:04 pm »


It is entirely possible that the cardboard underpinnings of Magic will disappear within the next 10-20 years.  With the advent of smart-paper and e-ink (forgive me), the old, "dumb" Magic cards could easily be replaced with a product that literally connects one's MTGO collection with a physical interface meant for IRL tournaments.  If/When such a product is introduced: is it a violation of the Reserved List to allow someone to "play" with their MTGO Lotus in a physical event?

Between now and then, I would not be surprised if there were an interim step that merged one's MTGO collection with the ability to play in cardboard tournaments. It would require a serious effort to implement (as you have all already addressed) but I don't believe any of the obstacles are insurmountable.

I was thinking something like this as I was reading through the thread. I can see the potential for an evolution to a private tablet-like device for each player representing their hand and deck, etc., and a larger tablet-like device with publicly available information about the game state on it which is accessible by both players.

Alternatively, print a cycle of functionally identical power cards, but with an addition like this:

"Mauve Lotus
When you play this card, opponent searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."

It's kind of like a reprint, but not. I might come out of retirement for that, especially the silliness that would result if they were legal in a format that only had lower-power cards.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2015, 10:55:11 am »

It's not a reprint, but it's also really clunky.  I mean, REALLY clunky.  Now, what you COULD do is have a cycle of Moxen or Lotus or whatever that give your opponent a free Jester's Cap when they enter the battlefield.  That would accomplish what you're after here without being so clunky.  They'd still be horribly broken, of course, which is probably the real reason we will not see any pseudo-moxen like this ever see print!
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thecrav
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« Reply #229 on: January 20, 2015, 03:52:33 pm »

Alternatively, print a cycle of functionally identical power cards, but with an addition like this:

"Mauve Lotus
When you play this card, opponent searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."

It's kind of like a reprint, but not. I might come out of retirement for that, especially the silliness that would result if they were legal in a format that only had lower-power cards.

So Black Lotus with a built in shuffle effect and the ability to have two loti in my deck? I'm down.
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kl0wn
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« Reply #230 on: January 20, 2015, 05:11:51 pm »


Alternatively, print a cycle of functionally identical power cards, but with an addition like this:

"Mauve Lotus
When you play this card, opponent searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."

Derp. I forgot to include the in-play part. Revision:

"Mauve Lotus
Counter Mauve Lotus if you control any cards named Mauve Lotus or Black Lotus or there are any cards named Mauve Lotus or Black Lotus in your graveyard. Opponent then searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."


Theoretically, it would increase the probability of drawing a Lotus/Mox/whatever, but at the expense of your opponent knowing what's in your hand along with every card in your deck and potential card disadvantage if you had drawn any additional copies if it were unrestricted. I would happily allow my opponent to reshuffle if I could look through their deck and hand. Of course, this is assuming the game hasn't evolved (degenerated) to the point where knowledge of your opponent's strategy and resources is valuable. I haven't played competitively in about ten years, so I wouldn't know.

And I will admit the wording is terribly clunky. But I'm sure if WoTC were to do something like this, it would go through R&D and get refined before it were printed. I don't see how the Jester's Cap effect is related; I was under the assumption that we were trying to get around the Reserve List's reprint policy so that restricted power cards could be relatively affordable for new players.
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ben_berry
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« Reply #231 on: January 20, 2015, 05:31:06 pm »

Additionally Wizards have gone back on the Reserved List in the past. Many of us know the foil promo loophole that existed for a while and was recently closed, but there was a time where they did a vote to take off various cards, which allowed them to print Clone in Onslaught and a couple of other cards. They also removed a massive amount of cards at another point as the cards weren't rare or something, as far as I remember. So it's not like there isn't precedence for the Reserved List being violated quite heavily by Wizards on multiple occasion.

I mean it's an antiquated thing, that is reaching legal drinking age in the USA, so I can't imagine it's legal standing is anything great.  

Those all happened a while ago.  Wizards has not messed with the Reserved List for quite a few years.  They have no reason to, since Magic is doing well, and they get the vast majority of their money from casual and Type 2 players.  Why risk killing the golden goose in order to please 1% of their players?  It would be incredibly stupid and short-sighted.

Additionally, wotc royally messed up with their one opportunity to experiment with how large scale reprinting of reserved list cards and increased availability for eternal formats would affect player behavior and sentiment.  The decided to release Vintage Masters at the same time as a major software overhaul leaving them with no reliable way to isolate the impacts of each.  If they were even remotely considering a change in paper, they would have taken that opportunity more seriously.

If they wanted to see what kind of player turn out they would get could try running a 100% proxy event will all the publicity and prize support they give to all their other events. And then they would have a decent data point to compare with other events they host in that area. If they do were to do that in multiple high turnout markets they could judge the effect of availability on turnout.
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tribet
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« Reply #232 on: January 20, 2015, 08:11:45 pm »

"Mauve Lotus
Counter Mauve Lotus if you control any cards named Mauve Lotus or Black Lotus or there are any cards named Mauve Lotus or Black Lotus in your graveyard. Opponent then searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."


Heheh, we are all coming with up with new Lotuses. Below is my mine from 6 months ago (in this thread too I think). My version was to show how Wizards could work around their infamous "Reverse List" for the day they feel like having some spare cashflow.

Purple Lotus
0CC
Artifact
{Tap}, Sacrifice Purple Lotus: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Gain 1 life.
You can only play with one Purple Lotus in your deck. Black Lotus & Purple Lotus must not be played in the same deck.
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