Jeskai Ascendancy

[vaughnbros]

Heh and Sisters of the Flame is forgotten. Has anyone tried this with a simple pinger like Fireslinger or Grim Lavamancer?

What does a pinger really accomplish?

I guess the idea is that a pinger hits for one each time you cast a card and then gets big for a final swing, meaning you only have to go halfway to "storm out." Alternatively, a pinger can blast the way clear for your attack by machine-gunning the enemy away.  If you were going that route, I'd only really look at Staticaster, who has some splash utility against storm and pyromancer and is basically 3 mana for 1 damage in a pinch, or Zhur-Taa Druid, which helps you ramp.

If you're really looking for a "pinger," Spikeshot Elder may just be the best choice.

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If the deck was looking for a trump card to delver I think this looks like a good option, but cunning sparkmage is probably better in general, only marginally worse when comboing, and much better when not comboing.

As for the other options mentioned:
Spikeshot elder is a heavy mana investment (1RRR), and doesn't have haste making it deal less total damage.
Izzet statisticaster is vulnerable to Pyro+REB, is still in bolt range, and can't ping players making it a worse.
Zhur-Taa druid is green and doesn't actually kill anything.

[MaximumCDawg]

Stinger seems worse than Staticaster.  I mean, yeah, Stinger can operate out of the yard as you're going off, but it has way less utility pre-combo.

[The Atog Lord]

Tell me again why we are discussing pingers in this deck?

[jlim17]

Tell me again why we are discussing pingers in this deck?

In "The Atog Lord" I Trust

So, what's the next problem guys?

On the face of it, it looks like the deck needs a more consistent way to push through Spheres/Chalices, unless you want to devote 9 slots in the SB for Shops. Also, how's the Dredge matchup? Dredge seems faster and you don't want to RIP with the Fatestitcher plan.

[Chubby Rain]

Heh and Sisters of the Flame is forgotten. Has anyone tried this with a simple pinger like Fireslinger or Grim Lavamancer?

What does a pinger really accomplish?

Tell me again why we are discussing pingers in this deck?

I never really got an answer...we just straight up jumped into our favorite versions of Timmy.

My vote goes to:

[jlim17]

I never really got an answer...we just straight up jumped into our favorite versions of Timmy.

I prefer the one in the wheelchair. You know, for Jeskai Relevancy.

[MaximumCDawg]

Tell me again why we are discussing pingers in this deck?

Because someone asked.  I don't think you want pingers, frankly, but you can still have a conversation about which one is best if you were gonna run it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Why the need for anger OR a pinger???  Fatestitcher can just tap all of your opponent's critters and then swing for 20.

[vaughnbros]

Why the need for anger OR a pinger???  Fatestitcher can just tap all of your opponent's critters and then swing for 20.

Obviously because this is too easy.

I think a pinger could be a decent sideboard card against delver and other decks running a plethora of X/1's so its not completely irrelevant to discuss which one functions the best with jeskai.

Jeskai's biggest issue is still shops though, a 3 mana non artifact non creature that requires you cast additional non creature spells is not the greatest against thorn of amethyst, sphere of resistance, and lodestone golem.  How are people approaching this right now?

[The Atog Lord]

Jeskai's biggest issue is still shops though

This is the most important question to answer for porting this deck to Vintage. By moving from Delver to Ascendancy, we are losing a one-drop capable of winning the game on his own. Delver has been a great card against Workshop decks.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Jeskai's biggest issue is still shops though

This is the most important question to answer for porting this deck to Vintage. By moving from Delver to Ascendancy, we are losing a one-drop capable of winning the game on his own. Delver has been a great card against Workshop decks.

I think the answer is sb 4x delver.  Delver/pyro is good vs shops.  Jeskai/Pyro is good vs everything else.  You could board in delvers and just go straight delver on them, or bring in a bunch of hurkyll's and just sweep and combo like storm does.  You have R as well, so there is always spree/chewer.

[fsecco]

G1 against Shops looks really bad... I don't think there's much you can do.

Now, about the pingers, I was actually thinking that an alternative way of winning could be good. Even if it's Grapeshot. There are things on the other side, like Ensnaring Bridge (it gets little play, I know) or a hexproof blocker that can hurt you a lot.

[vaughnbros]

G1 against Shops looks really bad... I don't think there's much you can do.

Well the main deck probably needs to be altered.  Shops is too good of deck to punt G1.  I think Dack Fayden is by far the best option available to for the deck to improve on that game.

I think the answer is sb 4x delver.

If the deck wants to run delver, I think it would need to find space in the main to do so.  Delver is a solid win-con against shops, but isn't the game changer or answer to spheres that the deck really needs.

The deck should probably be shifting into a more control role against shops, relying on its forces, removal and card advantage suite from the main, and then strengthening this plan with artifact removal/lands out of the board.

[serracollector]

Couldnt the deck just run 4 x Ingot Chewer maindeck? It fuels Treasure Cruise, answers the mud problem, and can just be discard fodder to Jeskai Ascendency if not needed.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Couldnt the deck just run 4 x Ingot Chewer maindeck? It fuels Treasure Cruise, answers the mud problem, and can just be discard fodder to Jeskai Ascendency if not needed.

True.  Not like they are ever dead cards in vintage anyway (no sarcasm). Even trading for a mox isn't awful and fuels cruise as stated.

[serracollector]

Exactly my sentiment. If I were to play this garbage I would run four chewer maindeck. The way this deck can filter thru cards with things like Ascendency and Dak Fayden the fact thats its almost never a dead card and that it fuels Treasure Cruise while also helping versus two of the decks hardest matchups (dredge and mud) makes it an obvious auto inclusion in my opinion.

[MaximumCDawg]

Isn't Shattering Spree just better when your primary plan is to chain spells?

[Chubby Rain]

Exactly my sentiment. If I were to play this garbage I would run four chewer maindeck. The way this deck can filter thru cards with things like Ascendency and Dak Fayden the fact thats its almost never a dead card and that it fuels Treasure Cruise while also helping versus two of the decks hardest matchups (dredge and mud) makes it an obvious auto inclusion in my opinion.

Ingot Chewer is a much better idea than randomly throwing in a pinger for _______ (never did really get a reason). And not sure I would call attempting to port a deck that is successful in all other competitive formats "garbage" without testing the deck or attempting to adapt it to the metagame. I do have a winning record with it on MTGO two-mans despite it being far from optimal - the power is there.

[Chubby Rain]

Isn't Shattering Spree just better when your primary plan is to chain spells?

They most often play Chalice on 1 so killing Chalice requires two red sources, exposing the deck more to wasteland. I was running both but I now think Chewer is superior with Wear/Tear the second option because of it's instant speed and utility against Oath.

[serracollector]

Also Shattering Spree does jack squat versus dredge. Chewer is easier to cast under Thorn breaks bridges and Spheres and fuels Delve. And I just called it garbage because I absolutely hate the card this thread is named for. People complained about Spirit and Cage and Containment Priest as being unimaginative and not innovative but when they make an enchantment that say cast a spell untap all your shit and draw a card its perfectly fine. Cuz obv its hard to chain spells with that in play. I mean even in standard you know how boring it is to watch your opponent masturebate for ten mins with this card some tokens and a retraction helix? I can imagine its even worse in other formats. But eh Im all for what is is what is. So if I were to run this garbage enchantment that took no thought to make or play with I would run four ingot chewer is what i meant. Im sure the deck is amazing.

[MaximumCDawg]

Jeskai Ascendancy is a really cool design, I think.  At first blush, it was almost universally regarded as fun but not really competitive.  It took the collective Magic community a few days to put together the fact that this card had a triggered ability that drew a card and untapped your creatures... and that this was inherently abusive.  It's clunky and hard to cast, so I don't see it getting there in Vintage, but I'm test driving it in Legacy at the moment.  Going to give it a few tournies before I give up on it. 

And, I mean, how can you play Vintage, a format with Vault-Key, shops lock pieces, Dredge, and (sometimes) Storm combo, and complain about Ascendancy of all things?

Also Shattering Spree does jack squat versus dredge. Chewer is easier to cast under Thorn breaks bridges and Spheres and fuels Delve. And I just called it garbage because I absolutely hate the card this thread is named for. People complained about Spirit and Cage and Containment Priest as being unimaginative and not innovative but when they make an enchantment that say cast a spell untap all your shit and draw a card its perfectly fine. Cuz obv its hard to chain spells with that in play. I mean even in standard you know how boring it is to watch your opponent masturebate for ten mins with this card some tokens and a retraction helix? I can imagine its even worse in other formats. But eh Im all for what is is what is. So if I were to run this garbage enchantment that took no thought to make or play with I would run four ingot chewer is what i meant. Im sure the deck is amazing.

You misspelled the word "masturbate."

[serracollector]

Sorry im posting from a dinosaur phone :-p and I dont mind it being broken just think its absurd when ppl complain about boring or simple design when this card is so obviously designed to do stupid things and no one complains. Sillyness I say. Now they just need to print delve walk and  delve swords to plow and the five damage delve bolt and were all set lol

[The Atog Lord]

delve swords to plow

Murderous Cut is basically this already.

[MaximumCDawg]

You misspelled the word "masturbate."

Sorry im posting from a dinosaur phone :-p

That's okay, we all get it wrong occasionally.  Sometimes you start out correctly, but then you press the wrong button or something and suddenly you're looking at something that is totally wrong.  If you're already on a roll, then, you know, I guess I understand why you would barrel ahead and finish what you're doing anyway.  In retrospect, of course, you gotta feel pretty bad about it.

and I dont mind it being broken just think its absurd when ppl complain about boring or simple design when this card is so obviously designed to do stupid things and no one complains. Sillyness I say. Now they just need to print delve walk and  delve swords to plow and the five damage delve bolt and were all set lol

Delve Swords would be fair as hell.  (Like Atog said, we already have it.)  Delve Walk would be a total cluster and I suspect that Wizards isn't pushing the envelope quite that far.  Delve Tutor wouldn't be too terrible if it cost, like 6BB to allign it with Dig Through Time. 

[Chubby Rain]

And I just called it garbage because I absolutely hate the card this thread is named for.

I see and agree with you. They definitely pushed the power level of this set and whether or not I view that as a good thing, it is what it is at least for now.

[KanaKaishou]

Actually, what's interesting to me is that the Rhinoceros aside, none of the creatures are making a splash outside of Standard. It's all "Dig Through Time this, Jeskai Ascendency that, BOOOOOOAAAAAATS".

Treasure Cruise feels like a modern design for a broken blue card, TBH, in the lineage of the Urza's Block madness.

[MaximumCDawg]

Actually, what's interesting to me is that the Rhinoceros aside, none of the creatures are making a splash outside of Standard. It's all "Dig Through Time this, Jeskai Ascendency that, BOOOOOOAAAAAATS".

Treasure Cruise feels like a modern design for a broken blue card, TBH, in the lineage of the Urza's Block madness.

In German, the card title is "Lohnende Ausfahrt."

"I'm going to go on an Ausfahrt!"

Anyway.... they never STOPPED trying to fix broken cards.  We've had several bad riffs on Ancestral Recall.  Zendikar had the one that required you to tap four creatures, then there was one in like M12 or something that required 20 cards in the yard, etc.  We just notice when they make one that is actually playable.

[Hrishi]

My feelings for this particular card aside, I'm glad they pushed the power level of this set. I'd hate to have seen another Theros.

[Chubby Rain]

Ugh, another frustrating 2-2 with Ascendancy.

Lost to Gush Storm twice, one pretty standard with Young Pyromancer and Empty the Warrens, one a throwback with Mystic Remora. Each match was close (lost 1-2 in games) and involved classic Vintage brokeness with me not having the right answers in each of the 4 losses. To be honest, I don't think running a traditional Delver list would have changed the outcome -there is only so much you can do when your opponent goes turn 1 Fastbond, Gush, Jace, Ancestral, and passes the turn with two Flusterstorms in hand (the benefit of Gitaxian probe letting you know how screwed you are). Other games involved resolving an Ancestral Recall in the first couple of turns along with a Turn 1 or Turn 2 Library or Jace and even Treasure Cruise can't make up for that dramatic of a difference in card advantage.

Beat Grixis and RUG delver 2-0 in games, with Ascendancy fueling multiple Treasure Cruises while filtering away the chaff and breaking the Pyromancer mirror by pumping the tokens. The deck feels powerful and consistent, losing to broken draws and beating most of the weaker draws. For reference, here is the list I ran today:

Creatures:
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Fatesticher
3 Ingot Chewers (I tried them out)

Spells:
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Gush
3 Izzet Charms
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm

Mana:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Shattering Spree
1 Ingot Chewer
3 Wear/Tear
1 Mountain

Sideboard is rough. Ingot Chewers were awful often clogging up my hand but the decks I played against were artifact light. It's a work in progress and I would appreciate any insight. I will probably play it in another Daily as it seems so close to breaking out.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I've been running the deck in modern (very close to the vintage list, but subbing in serum visions, sleight of hand, etc).  I've tested it in all formats.  Honestly, I feel it is powerful, but NOT consistent.  It does what delver does, but not as well.  It does what storm does, but not as well.  The benefit is being able to go either way, but the loss of focus to either plan hurts.  Also, for modern especially, slots are at a premium, so there's very little room for counters of any type.  Grave hate also hurts a lot more than you'd like to think.  Shutting off stitcher and cruise basically makes it into a really bad pyromancer deck.  I've done most of my testing in modern, but a LotV, decay, RiP, etc., is just devastating.  Sometimes you just get raced for the win by things like valukut/delver even since they have counters and burn with their clock.  In vintage the "fast" wins are even that more painful for this deck.  The "broken" is certainly there when you go off....getting to that point isn't so easy.

On the plus side, I have discovered a broken card in the list for modern - ideas unbound.  2 mana ancestrals that fuel cruise and ditch fatestitcher.  When you have an ascendancy out, running 4 IU means you never fizzle...they are literally 4x UU=ancestral since you win in that turn anyway. When you DON'T have ascendancy out, it is a turn 2 play that digs, pitches stitcher, feeds cruise, and sculpts a hand.  It's as solid a card as any in an ascendancy list.  I even have 3 cruise and 4 IU, and cruise is broken, so you can see how good IU is.  I'd imagine it could have legacy and vintage potential as well.  In vintage/legacy, frantic search would serve a similar effect as far as dig/pitch/sculpt with a wicked ascendancy plus.