So Many Insane Plays Podcast #39: Khans of Tarkir Vintage Set Review

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-39-khans-of-tarkir/

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review Khans of Tarkir for Vintage. Plus, their Journey into Nyx report card, and the latest Vintage Super League results.

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:56:50 — 83.8MB)

0:06:20: Vintage Super League Update
0:15:14: Journey into Nyx report card
0:23:45: Mechanics
0:30:30: Dig Through Time/Treasure Cruise
1:17:30: Jeskai Elder/Monastery Swiftspear
1:30:30: Stubborn Denial
1:33:30: Jeskai Ascendancy
1:39:40: Ugin’s Nexus
Total runtime: 1:56:50
Other Show Notes

– Khans of Tarkir Visual Spoiler
– Eternal Weekend 2014
– Vintage Super League
– Steve’s VSL Round 6 Match vs. Luis Scott-Vargas

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

[Smmenen]

I think your evaluations of DTT and Treasure cruise are pretty much spot on.
Except for one thing. I think the effect of DTT at the very least rivals that of gifts ungiven.

The part that worries me most when i consider including these delve cards in my decks is that the spots i would use for them are usually spent on cards like night's whisper/fact or fiction or something similar that helps me develop my position. The delve mechanic is much better in a developed stage than it is at creating a developed state.

I think both cards will prove to be much better in legacy and modern than in vintage. You also didn't mention that it weakens snapcaster mage, which i find very relevant.
I would also add that including these cards in a deck with dark confidants is probably a nombo.

Great points.

[fsecco]

zeus-online, I can only agree with your Dark Confidant statement. It really is bad to play both together.  But Delve doesn't hurt Snapcaster that much. Maybe Delver decks will have to choose between Snapcaster or Cruise, but other decks can play around that pretty easily. I could even see MonoU control playing fetches, just to fill the grave up.

[Samoht]

zeus-online, I can only agree with your Dark Confidant statement. It really is bad to play both together.  But Delve doesn't hurt Snapcaster that much. Maybe Delver decks will have to choose between Snapcaster or Cruise, but other decks can play around that pretty easily. I could even see MonoU control playing fetches, just to fill the grave up.

Well, this is a bit tricky. I often replay mana drain, mental misstep and other disruptive effects with my snapcasters. Those are also cards i would generally want to remove to pay for the delve cost (So i can save the juice stuff for a future yawg will).
That is what i meant by delve and snapcaster not playing well together. I did not mean that delve cards and snapcasters cannot both be played in the same deck.

I'd be a lot more comfortable saying Delve and Will don't play together than I would saying Delve and Snapcaster don't. In fact, I think Snapcaster can often lead to more developed states in which more total cards end up in your graveyard before casting a Delve card. I think they pair quite nicely. Will on the other hand scares the crap out of me.

[Smmenen]

zeus-online, I can only agree with your Dark Confidant statement. It really is bad to play both together.  But Delve doesn't hurt Snapcaster that much. Maybe Delver decks will have to choose between Snapcaster or Cruise, but other decks can play around that pretty easily. I could even see MonoU control playing fetches, just to fill the grave up.

Sure, Snapcaster can still be used - but in my testing, Snapcaster is impeded by Delve.  I'm often just trying to reach Delve, and Snapcaster does actually slow that a bit, and is more limited in terms of what it can flash back when you chuck your whole or most of your GY.  It's like Masticore and Moat - sure they can be played together in the same deck, but they aren't exactly synergistic.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Enjoyed the podcast fellas

[Chubby Rain]

zeus-online, I can only agree with your Dark Confidant statement. It really is bad to play both together.  But Delve doesn't hurt Snapcaster that much. Maybe Delver decks will have to choose between Snapcaster or Cruise, but other decks can play around that pretty easily. I could even see MonoU control playing fetches, just to fill the grave up.

Sure, Snapcaster can still be used - but in my testing, Snapcaster is impeded by Delve.  I'm often just trying to reach Delve, and Snapcaster does actually slow that a bit, and is more limited in terms of what it can flash back when you chuck your whole or most of your GY.  It's like Masticore and Moat - sure they can be played together in the same deck, but they aren't exactly synergistic.

Interesting, I have been testing a Grixis control list on Magic Online with 4 Treasure Cruise and 4 Snapcaster Mages. I actually started at two Snapcaster Mages but kept adding them because I found my concerns about the lack of synergy unwarranted. At the point in the game in which you are casting Treasure Cruise, you generally know which spells should be left in the graveyard if possible. If you end up depleting your entire graveyard, Cruise generally finds other spells for Snapcaster. I did not have a chance to listen to the podcast and am not sure in what shell you have been using the Delve cards but this could be a difference in game plans.

[Smmenen]

zeus-online, I can only agree with your Dark Confidant statement. It really is bad to play both together.  But Delve doesn't hurt Snapcaster that much. Maybe Delver decks will have to choose between Snapcaster or Cruise, but other decks can play around that pretty easily. I could even see MonoU control playing fetches, just to fill the grave up.

Sure, Snapcaster can still be used - but in my testing, Snapcaster is impeded by Delve.  I'm often just trying to reach Delve, and Snapcaster does actually slow that a bit, and is more limited in terms of what it can flash back when you chuck your whole or most of your GY.  It's like Masticore and Moat - sure they can be played together in the same deck, but they aren't exactly synergistic.

Interesting, I have been testing a Grixis control list on Magic Online with 4 Treasure Cruise and 4 Snapcaster Mages. I actually started at two Snapcaster Mages but kept adding them because I found my concerns about the lack of synergy unwarranted. At the point in the game in which you are casting Treasure Cruise, you generally know which spells should be left in the graveyard if possible. If you end up depleting your entire graveyard, Cruise generally finds other spells for Snapcaster. I did not have a chance to listen to the podcast and am not sure in what shell you have been using the Delve cards but this could be a difference in game plans.

I'm not saying you can't play them together. Just that in my testing I'd be lying if Snapcaster wasn't slightly narrower or marginally impacted.  Not necessarily enough to make a difference, but it was observable. 

[yugular]

Great episode as always. This set is very interesting for eternal formats for sure.

You have now done JOU report card twice. Are you gonna do M15 report card and when?

BR
Matti

[fsecco]

Nice podcast as usual, guys.

Just two things. You said that there's currently no "Careful Study" deck, but I find interesting you forgot to talk about how Dack Fayden could make delve a lot better. Só maybe there's that. Maybe your Careful Study deck could be a Dack deck hehe. I'm really thinking about Dack +1 together with Treasure Cruise to make up for the lost CA.

Now, about Ugin's Nexus, I also thought Steve would mention one of his favorite 93/94 cards: Transmute Artifact. Maybe, just maybe, there's a deck there that could abuse Ugin's Nexus. I doubt it, but it's nice to mention that it's not only Forgemaster that could benefit from it.

[meadbert]

The Delve cards seem like they would be best in either a Careful Study based Dragon deck or a deck running a full set of Fact or Fictions.  A Fact deck would not want to run more than about two, because you would hate to Fact into 2 Delve cards, but a Dragon deck could run more since it loads the yard so fast and can filter out redundant ones.

What deck would want to support 4 Fact or Fictions?

[Smmenen]

Treasure Cruse does not seem best in a Dragon-type deck.  I don't think we should lump these cards together.

The Vintage Super League yesterday began to illustrate just how good these cards are. 

[meadbert]

Treasure Cruse does not seem best in a Dragon-type deck.  I don't think we should lump these cards together.

The Vintage Super League yesterday began to illustrate just how good these cards are.  

To be clear, I am not saying the best deck that can run Treasure Cruise is Dragon.  I am just saying it has more synergy with Dragon.  Dragon is still inherently weaker than other decks.

EDIT:  Solidarity is another deck that could potentially make use of at least Dig Through Time.  I have not seen a type 1 Solidarity deck in a while though.

[Samoht]

Dragon is still inherently weaker than other decks.

Really? Inherently? If it wasn't for dredge i think it would still be a great deck. The only reason that i would not play it is because of the anti-dredge package that every sideboard has.
I am not sure how many delve cards dragon would really want though, deep analysis is probably better in that particular deck.

Abrupt Decay would like to have a word with you, that word being uncounterable.

[MaximumCDawg]

Podcast seemed great, but for some reason browsing around it was totally impossible for me.  I tried downloading it to my cell phone via Chrome and some third party podcast software.  I always ended up with a file with problems.  When I tried to browse to the point at which I had previously stopped listening, it constantly shoved me into your JOU report card or the LSV match.  I could not for the life of me ever get it to take me to a later point in the podcast.  Really infuriating; can't imagine what was going on.

From what I did manage to hear, I think there was one thing about Cruise and, to a lesser extent, Dig, that you undervalued.  Both cards help fuel themselves.  When you draw 3 off Cruise, chances are quite good you just made your next Cruise 3 mana cheaper as a result of the additional spells you play.  If some of those spells are cantrips too, then so much the better.  I don't think the bottleneck on Delve occurs after you've started to draw cards; the bottleneck is at the BEGINNING of the game, before your first draw spell is cast.

Dragon is still inherently weaker than other decks.

Really? Inherently? If it wasn't for dredge i think it would still be a great deck. The only reason that i would not play it is because of the anti-dredge package that every sideboard has.
I am not sure how many delve cards dragon would really want though, deep analysis is probably better in that particular deck.

I agree that dredge hate is the biggest reason Dragon doesn't see play, but let's be honest: it's a combo deck that uses something like 8 - 12 dead cards to get there. (Dragon + Animate Dead & friends).  That's pretty bad when you compare it to one card (Tinker, SNT, Tendrils) and two card (VaultKey) combos.  

[MaximumCDawg]

Zeus, Dragon could not possibly be less tuned for today's meta.  The following all see substantial play and absolutely wreck that deck:

Dredge Hate - Duh.
Deathrite Shaman - Hit the Dragon in response to attempted animation.
Swords to Plowshares - Kill the Dragon, enjoy your empty board sucka.
Abrupt Decay - Kill the Animate Dead, enjoy your empty board sucka. 

I guess that RUG Delver does not have many tools to hit you with, but in an environment where other decks are packing the above cards, I'd be terrified to try Minus Six or anything like that.

[Samoht]

Zeus, Dragon could not possibly be less tuned for today's meta.  The following all see substantial play and absolutely wreck that deck:

Dredge Hate - Duh.
Deathrite Shaman - Hit the Dragon in response to attempted animation.
Swords to Plowshares - Kill the Dragon, enjoy your empty board sucka.
Abrupt Decay - Kill the Animate Dead, enjoy your empty board sucka. 

I guess that RUG Delver does not have many tools to hit you with, but in an environment where other decks are packing the above cards, I'd be terrified to try Minus Six or anything like that.

You have obviously never played dragon if you think swords to plowshares is a huge problem for the deck.
I agree that it is not good in today's meta, but it has nothing at all to do with swords to plowshares or abrupt decay.

I think nothing is a drastic overstatement. Typically when I played Minus 6, I'd have enough disruption to deal with 1 counter/removal easily, 2 often, and 3+ seldom. When the answers went from 8 to 20 in most decks, the amount of things we needed to fight went up. Misstep hits our Duress. All of the removal hits the Dragon. All of their counters hit our animate spell. It's not as easy as you seem to think to stick this all together and win after. I LOVED Dragon. Handing in a 2-1-6 deck slip and blowing the HJ's mind was one of my crowning achievements in M:tG history. Cheap efficient counters coupled with cheap efficient removal means that going all in on a permanent that RFG's your board is sketchy at best.

[Smmenen]

Shifting the conversation a bit, is there a consensus about which delve card folks think is better?

[fsecco]

Shifting the conversation a bit, is there a consensus about which delve card folks think is better?

Murderous Cut.

I for one think Dig Through Time is a complete broken card. If you resolve it, you're probably winning that game. That said, Treasure Cruise is also bonkers. But the only decks I could see Cruise shine are low mana decks like Delver. I think Cruise is a card that has been more widely early-adopted simply because it's so easy to put it in existing decks. That's why I'm really happy with LSV's deck in VSL, since he's using 3 Digs to maximum effect. NICE!

(I guess LSV floated towards Dig because he saw how much damage that did on the Pro Tour Khans)

[brianpk80]

I think Treasure Cruise is better for two reasons.  The first is the casting cost; I've experienced and witnessed games that turned on a pilot being unable to play Dig Through Time despite a stacked graveyard due to lacking a second blue source, either from variance or from Wasteland.  Secondly, Treasure Cruise plays a more novel role in deck design, namely the ability to run 5 straight-up Ancestral Recall effects in tempo/control (or forthcoming potential Dredge variants) whereas Dig Through Time is simply a conditional upgrade to a phenomenon that already exists in Vintage, that being the broken blue end of turn card advantage bomb/tutor (Gifts, Fact, Intuition, etc.). 

[Chubby Rain]

Treasure Cruise is absolutely insane in the Delver decks and will likely be restricted.

[Smmenen]

I'm regretting not playing my Delver Cruise deck in Weeks 7-9 of the VSL, but that seemed too obvious since I just played Delver in the previous weeks.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Don't the cards have different uses? Dig Through Time seems better in decks where you're looking to put together a combo or find a handful of broken cards: Bomberman, Oath, Tinker, Storm, and so on. Being an instant also allows it to fit in decks with Mana Drains that need to hold up more mana for counters. Treasure Cruise would be more appropriate in decks where the cards are of a similar power level, like Delver. You don't need particular cards; you just want more of them.

[Smmenen]

They definitely have different uses, and shine in different strategies and shells - that's what we said in this podcast.  But I'm asking a more fundamental question that came up in the VSL commentary last night: which card will prove more popular and prevalent over time? 

[fsecco]

I still think over time people will shift to Dig. I think people forget Dig IS card advantage: it's ALSO a draw spell, just like Cruise. The difference is that you select your draws better. It's very different from Intuition or Mystical/Vampiric. Once people get it's not only a "tutor", but a draw-engine-tutor, much like Gifts, then Dig will get what it deserves, I guess

As I said, I think the popularity of Cruise over Dig right now is given only because we have already a perfect shell for it (Delver). That said, Cruise is way more splashable and easy to cast... so maybe it's popularity has something to do with that.

But I think the main reason people are going with Cruise first is because it's similar to Ancestral Recall and so everyone's eyes just tends to shine. I mean, it's similar to a P9, how can it not be better than Dig? Everyone wants to try out a P9 functional reprint. But man... if Ancestral Memories was an instant for UU, it would obviously be very much restricted, and in every blue deck, just like Recall.

ps: By the way, Steve, your predictions on these cards in the set review, in my opinion, were waaaay too low.

[Smmenen]

I still think over time people will shift to Dig. I think people forget Dig IS card advantage: it's ALSO a draw spell, just like Cruise. The difference is that you select your draws better. It's very different from Intuition or Mystical/Vampiric. Once people get it's not only a "tutor", but a draw-engine-tutor, much like Gifts, then Dig will get what it deserves, I guess

As I said, I think the popularity of Cruise over Dig right now is given only because we have already a perfect shell for it (Delver). That said, Cruise is way more splashable and easy to cast... so maybe it's popularity has something to do with that.

But I think the main reason people are going with Cruise first is because it's similar to Ancestral Recall and so everyone's eyes just tends to shine. I mean, it's similar to a P9, how can it not be better than Dig? Everyone wants to try out a P9 functional reprint. But man... if Ancestral Memories was an instant for UU, it would obviously be very much restricted, and in every blue deck, just like Recall.

ps: By the way, Steve, your predictions on these cards in the set review, in my opinion, were waaaay too low.

Yeah, we'll Brian Demars didn't even mention them in his top 5!  I agree my predictions were too low, but Kevin's were in the same ballpark. 

[diophan]

I think people forget Dig IS card advantage: it's ALSO a draw spell, just like Cruise. The difference is that you select your draws better. It's very different from Intuition or Mystical/Vampiric.

I think it's pretty silly to think that people don't understand that one card that gets you two cards is card advantage. Many would agree that dig is more powerful in the abstract. As you've said, the blue deck most primed to abuse delve is delver, which runs so few mana sources and redundant cards that it lends itself better to cruise.  It's much easier to jam a few more probes and a playset of cruises into delver than it is to design a deck that really takes advantage of dig and runs enough delve support. We'll likely see more digs as time goes on not because people discover it's a good card, but because people have more time to build the right deck for it.

That said, LSV's deck this week looked pretty sweet.

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't know if a shell will emerge that truly abuses Dig Through Time.  That's possible.  In a vacuum, I think Cruise is the better card and have said so since they were spoiled.  For me, it's all about what they are compared to.

At their best (maximum Delve), Treasure Cruise is  a slow Ancestral Recall.  That's a card that everyone obviously would play five of if they had half the chance.  It is absurdly broken and no one really can question that.

Dig Through Time, by comparison, strikes me as a small upgrade on Demonic Tutor and similar cards.  You trade the ability to get any card in your deck off for getting two from the top of your deck.  Would we run four Demonic Tutors if we could?  Maybe, but then again, maybe not.  We have MANY cards that do similar work to D.Tutor in black and blue, and not all of those are included in every deck.  Heck, even Consultation, which is arguably better that D.Tutor, doesn't see a ton of play.

Based on these comparisons, I like Cruise better at the moment.

[Hrishi]

I don't think it's right to say Dig is equivalent to Demonic Tutor. DT's effect is leaps and bounds more powerful and I would most certainly play four. Dig is possibly more comparable to Ancestral Knowledge or Impulse or something like that.

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't think it's right to say Dig is equivalent to Demonic Tutor. DT's effect is leaps and bounds more powerful and I would most certainly play four. Dig is possibly more comparable to Ancestral Knowledge or Impulse or something like that.

It's not the same thing, no, but it's pretty close.  Dig is two impulses, you could say that, but that's sort of a hard comparison to make.  Does that mean Dig gives you +1 card advantage and 2 mana because it does the work of two other cards?  If so, how you weight that?

I prefer to compare the card to something else at the same cost that fulfills a very similar role and supplies very similar benefit.  In a deck with reasonable redundancy, and even perhaps in a deck without it, Dig will usually get you the type of card or cards you are looking for at that moment.  You need to get Key and a Force to protect it?  Dig is your man.  Now, DT also gets you what you need, when you need it.  The advantage of DT is that, if you are looking for one card in the haystack, Dig can whiff but DT cannot.  On the flip side, Dig can get you protection as well as your answer, or just be burned for +1 CA in a pinch.  Given how deeply Dig digs, though, DT is a closer comparison, in my mind, than looking at Impulse.