C14-Dualcaster Mage

[Saya]

Today we saw a new funcitonal red creature.Although doublesymbol   is hard for many decks,this guy has a versatile ability and a body that can be a clock.Thoughts?

[tito del monte]

Although no-one at this point is going to complain what an awesome 2-drop red eventually got with Pyromancer, this feels like a sop to all the players who pointed out that Snapcaster should have been red. And well, because we got Pyromancer in the meantime, we instead get this... a fine and interesting card. But dialled back by casting cost, because of its similarity to Snappy and posteriority to Pyromancer.

Still, useful creature types, fun if situational effect. Would love it to find a home somewhere other than Commander. But pretty sure any deck in Vintage would run a fourth Snapcaster before the first of these guys, which means he's going to struggle...

Will be jamming him in Commander for sure though!

[Protoaddict]

I wouldn't compare him to snappy so quickly, as he does a lot snapcaster does not. Keep in mind if your snapping a Spell Pierce back it will cost you 3 mana in any event, so in many situations this guy is comparable and works better with force of will as he will allow you to copy the hard counter if its on the stack unlike snappy, but what this does let you do is match anything your opponent does as well.

Your opponent tinkers? Now you do to?
Copy your ancestral? Sure?
Mana drain your Drain and get a 2/2 out of it, why not.

I don't think this guy is a core card in any list, maybe a 1 of bullet for some lists because of his utility, but I def think it could see play in a number of lists.

[MaximumCDawg]

Cast Momentary Blink targeting something.
Cast this, direct copy to this.  Resolve copy.
Blink this, repeat.

Step 3. Profit?

[Demagoguery]

Isn't this guy just really good in Cavern Humans? I guess they can just counter your copied Cruise or Recall, but it's definitely not a bad card out of the board.

[vartemis]

Blink, DCMage and Pandemonium? You could cast the blink on the Mage in play to start the loop, could you not?

It's janky enough it just might work.

[Saya]

@vartemis that combo can't happen

[MaximumCDawg]

Blink, DCMage and Pandemonium? You could cast the blink on the Mage in play to start the loop, could you not?

It's janky enough it just might work.

I found a better option:

Heat Shimmer and/or Twinflame give you infinite hasty doods.

[Protoaddict]

Both of those require some gymnastics to make happen. You have to have a target in play already, then cast it, then copy the one on the stack with dualcaster. Its like 5 mana minimum and a lot of red, so me thinks just playing for value seems like a better use for this guy.

[MaximumCDawg]

I dunno.  Twinflame needs you to control a dude, but Heat Shimmer just requires a targetable dude somewhere on the battlefield.  That's not a high order in Magic nowadays.  DCMage is hardly a dead card on its own - at the worst it's a Mystic Snake to protect your spells - so being able to "oops I win" with it for 2 more mana seems potentially quite strong. 

I mean, a deck with this core:

4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Dualcaster Mage
1x Heat Shimmer
4x Twinflame

Seems actually pretty potent.  If you have Dualcaster and Shimmer/Flame in hand, you can combo out with 5 mana.  If you already cast DCMagic, you can combo out with two Shimmer/Flames.  If you have already cast a Shimmer/Flames for value, you can win (for more mana) with Snappy + DCMage.  Apart from all of that, if Snappy is in play all your copy effects are now Recoups. 

I dunno, this actually seems stable enough to warrant a serious look in Legacy, if nothing else.

[portland]

Fork gets a 2/2 body for 1 colourless, but no-one plays fork...

[gribdogs]

I think the RR cost is going to keep him out of serious consideration.  I mean, if folks aren't willing to pay UU to try Dig Through Time, are they going to want RR?

If you are going to use him, it would be best if he were a game stopper.  Not just merely another counterspell.  So what instant/sorcery cards can he copy that either breaks your opponent or gives you the massive advantage?

Ancestral Recall?
Perhaps copying Tinker for your own artifact wincon?
Tendrils and/or Empty the Warrens are the only big ones I can see worth copying.

I am probably missing some, but in either case your opponent still gets their spell out and you'd still need to counter it.

Casually, this card is going to be a lot of fun though.  I also suspect it could be slightly more powerful in Legacy, where instant/sorceries are the norm (Show and Tell, Entomb, etc).

[MaximumCDawg]

Fork gets a 2/2 body for 1 colourless, but no-one plays fork...

Recoup saw virtually no play outside of Gifts lists.  But, give it a 2/2 body and suddenly you have a multi-format all-star.

I think the RR cost is going to keep him out of serious consideration.  I mean, if folks aren't willing to pay UU to try Dig Through Time, are they going to want RR?

If you are going to use him, it would be best if he were a game stopper.  Not just merely another counterspell.  So what instant/sorcery cards can he copy that either breaks your opponent or gives you the massive advantage?

Ancestral Recall?
Perhaps copying Tinker for your own artifact wincon?
Tendrils and/or Empty the Warrens are the only big ones I can see worth copying.

I am probably missing some, but in either case your opponent still gets their spell out and you'd still need to counter it.

Casually, this card is going to be a lot of fun though.  I also suspect it could be slightly more powerful in Legacy, where instant/sorceries are the norm (Show and Tell, Entomb, etc).

This creature is far from a dead card and it enables a potentially game-winning combo.  That's worthy of discussion if nothing else.  If anything kills this card, I agree that the extra R in it's casting cost will be what does it.  

Note that this guy opens strange sideboard options.  To ensure that you can trump Tinker, for example, just run a singleton Duplicant or Nev's Disk or Spine of Ish Shah or Noetic Scales or Ensaring Bridge or whatever.  To trump Yawgwill, have ample countermagic in your graveyard.

And, of course, casting this in response to Tendrils of Agony is now my hilarious life's goal in Magic.

[Sloth]

Fork gets a 2/2 body for 1 colourless, but no-one plays fork...

Recoup saw virtually no play outside of Gifts lists.  But, give it a 2/2 body and suddenly you have a multi-format all-star.

Recoup is a sorcery that only targets sorceries. Snapcaster Mage wouldn't be a multi-format all-star without flash and instants.

And, of course, casting this in response to Tendrils of Agony is now my hilarious life's goal in Magic.

The copy isn't cast, so storm will not trigger.

[MaximumCDawg]

And, of course, casting this in response to Tendrils of Agony is now my hilarious life's goal in Magic.

The copy isn't cast, so storm will not trigger.

My life is now an empty shell of what it was moments ago.

[psly4mne]

Note that this guy opens strange sideboard options.  To ensure that you can trump Tinker, for example, just run a singleton Duplicant or Nev's Disk or Spine of Ish Shah or Noetic Scales or Ensaring Bridge or whatever.  To trump Yawgwill, have ample countermagic in your graveyard.

Dualcasting Tinker for Duplicant or Spine won't work - the copy will resolve before the original Tinker. Since that also means they see what you're getting before they search, Noetic Scales and Ensnaring Bridge won't be as effective, and Disk won't work if they have BSC as an option. You know, in case cleverly trumping Tinker was your new hilarious life's goal.

I guess you should run your own Tinker/BSC if you are running Dualcaster.

[portland]

Twincast anyone?

[evouga]

Copying Yawgmoth's Will is cute, but realistically speaking Pyroblast is better the majority of the time, unless you're proactively copying your own spells (Vintage RDW?)

[xouman]

The first I have thought after seeing him has been "A 1RR counterspell uncounterable with cavern", and I have liked it. After some minutes, it's clear that the cost is R more expensive than desirable, but it's still potentially playable in some decks (human flashy decks?).

One problem that I see with him is that it's quite bad against some decks (awful against MUD, bad against dredge or oath), and against blue decks it stays in your hand and they can play around it. Or if you choose to play it after an own spell, a counter on the first spell makes it a Grey Ogre with worse CC.

I can see him as 1 or even 2 in some human decks (specially human vial). And some UR delver decks could try it, but it's really expensive for those decks (however it copies gushes, love boats and specially time walk, making it interesting in the late game).

[MaximumCDawg]

Of all the points in this thread, the best one is probably that the additional "R" in the casting cost is really what makes people skeptical.  Is that single point of mana really enough to put it down at rogue-level as opposed to a solid Vintage playable?

Maybe? Look at Snapcaster Mage versus Eternal Witness.  They do something very similar. Eternal Witness has a slightly more powerful effect, but costs one colored mana (ignoring color for the moment) more and lacks Flash.  Yet you don't see any Witnesses running around.  The next question, in my mind, is whether adding Flash to Witness would make her playable even with the higher mana cost.  I think it would, in a heartbeat.  The ability to wait until the opponent's end step and then flash in a Regrowth effect is amazing, gives you tools in combat, and even helps in counter wars.  

Noodled that way, this guy seems better than most of us are suggesting.  He has incredible utility at all stages of the game even if you are not using him to go infinite.  A deck with Treasure Cruise and/or Snapcaster Mage should not have to worry much that they won't have something worth copying.   The real question is whether Snapcaster mage remains better in enough circumstances that there is just no reason to warp the mana base to include this guy.  Unless you're copying your opponents effects or a Delve card, Snapcaster might just be plain better.

EDIT: There's another queer tutor effect that interacts with Dualcaster -- Mask of the Mimic.  If you have something to sac and something else anywhere on the battlefield to target, then casting Dualcaster allows you to pull out all of the Dualcasters in your deck at once.  I can imagine this scenario being backbreaking in the Delver mirror:

Player 1: Sac my elemental token to cast Mask of the Mimic, targeting your Goyf.  Retain priority.  Cast Dualcaster Mage.
Player 2: Hm.  Resolves.
Player 1: Copy Mask targeting Dualcaster.  Let that copy resolve, getting another Dualcaster.  Repeat two more times, four Dualcasters in play.  Final copy of Mask of the Mimic targets your Goyf again.  Resolve final copy, get a Goyf. Resolve original spell, get a Goyf.
Player 2: You just spend 1URR and got four 2/2s and a pair of goyfs which are about 4/5 at this point in the game.  That's 12 power.
Player 1: Feels good man.

Now, I don't think this is amazing, since it requires you to be running the same deck as your opponent to work consistently.  However, Mask does allow you to get extra uses out of the Dualcasters or Snapcasters for U when they're in play.  So maybe a singleton is actually a possibility in a deck centered around these guys?

[bactgudz]

Interesting, but doesn't seem interesting enough.

[serracollector]

Why not run him in blue red delver with four volcanics four caverns and like two steam vents? Delver Young Pyromancer Snapcaster and him are all humans. Just drop Gush from the list altogether and run with the five ancestrals. I tell you this much its easier to get a second love boat out of him than snapcaster. Four mana for a 2/2 and draw six cards does not seem bad at all and is not gonna be uncommon in a deck with five draw threes. Even a preordain or git probe with him is not bad. Being an uncounterable counter as mentioned is not bad either.

[evouga]

How exactly is he an uncounterable counter? Can't you just counter the copy?

[Protoaddict]

With cavern of souls, copying a counter, but thats not totally true because you can counter the copy on the stack, but you will still get a 2/2 body even if the counter spell itself is countered.

[evouga]

I'll be honest, this guy looks pretty terrible to me, nowhere close in power level to Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster Mage (or even Eternal Witness) get their power from the fact that your graveyard likely has a bunch of broken restricted spells in it at any given time, and you can almost always bring one of them back for value. In contrast the Dualcaster Mage durdles in your hand, waiting to be either an expensive Pyroblast, a Grey Ogre with flash, or a win-more card on the offchance you have enough mana to cast a hay-maker *and* have 1RR left over for this guy.

[John Cox]

This would be great in delver, you get to copy your treasure cruise, their yawgmoth's will (and use your forces, missteps ect). He's a walking misdirection too. I very much like this guy.

[gkraigher]

I'll be honest, this guy looks pretty terrible to me, nowhere close in power level to Snapcaster Mage.

In contrast the Dualcaster Mage durdles in your hand

Agreed.  No one has played fork for years.  Why would a more expensive fork be viable?  Because you get a 2/2 creature with it?  

On the other hand, Regrowth has it's uses and a blue regrowth attached to a creature with a 2 CC seems good.  It keeps the same converted mana costs, while increasing the flexibility of the card.  And makes it blue.  

That being said, in a heavy treasure cruise metagame, this card has the potential to be a useful sideboard card.  But I think you would want to use up those slots for something less narrow.  

[sirgog]

It strikes me as fringe playable.

Firstly if you play Blightsteel, it trumps the opponent's Tinker into BSC because it has 2 toughness. They tinker, you copy it getting Blightsteel, they get their Blightsteel. If they have no other creatures or only a Snapcaster, you then get to attack first (forcing a Blight for Blight trade, but with you up a 2/2 and not having had to sacrifice an artifact). If they attack you, you can chump with Dualcaster, going to 9 poison, and kill them on the backswing. (Of course the opponent can turn this advantage around with cards like JtMS, Steel Sabotage or the like).

Secondly, you get the cards first if you copy an Ancestral, Cruise, Dig, or similar card. There will definitely be games blown out by one person Treasure Cruising, then the opponent DCMing it, drawing a Mana Drain off the Cruise, casting it on the original TC, then hardcasting Blightsteel or something equally ridiculous the next turn.

As for the Fork comparisons. Fork/Reverberate are 1 for 1s, this is usually a 2 for 1.

[gkraigher]

Firstly if you play Blightsteel, it trumps the opponent's Tinker into BSC because it has 2 toughness

I highly doubt this card will fit in a deck that is also running blightsteel and tinker, because that deck is also running more artifacts in the main (and therefore less spells).

[John Cox]

Firstly if you play Blightsteel, it trumps the opponent's Tinker into BSC because it has 2 toughness

I highly doubt this card will fit in a deck that is also running blightsteel and tinker, because that deck is also running more artifacts in the main (and therefore less spells).

Actually I think this will replace snapcaster.